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Posted: 7/10/2003 8:18:03 AM EDT
There is a LOT of 55 grn FMJ being sold out there. It seems that 55 grn soft points would do more damage to a human body than FMJ would. Why then do we continue to shoot mostly FMJ?
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 8:46:35 AM EDT
$$. That's why. The Power Point Plus is an excellent defensive round, but it costs too damn much to shoot in any large quantity. Plus I'd rather have the added barrier penetration potential of the FMJ.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 8:58:54 AM EDT
Becaue the 55gr Softpoints have insufficient penetration on Humans to be usefull defensive rounds. M193 will penetrate to the needed depth and it will fragment to create a larger permanent wound channel. Personally I just opt for the better (heavier) rounds. If you like Softpoints then look at the 64gr Winchester Power Point or the Black Hills 60gr Jacketed soft point.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 6:57:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: Becaue the 55gr Softpoints have insufficient penetration on Humans to be usefull defensive rounds.
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So the 64gr power points would have sufficient penetration on humans? I've been reading up on this and so many pages were saying that there were too many examples of the FMJ 55 & 62 gr NOT fragmenting like they should. So that's why I figured, why rely on FMJ to fragment when power points will break apart every time.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 2:43:01 AM EDT
Some Major LE Departments issue the 55 gr SP ammo for carbines.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 6:55:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: So the 64gr power points would have sufficient penetration on humans?
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Yes! The 64gr PP is a decent round for defensive use. [qutoe] I've been reading up on this and so many pages were saying that there were too many examples of the FMJ 55 & 62 gr NOT fragmenting like they should.
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WTF does that have to do with the 64gr PP? Different rounds have different characteristics depening on their construction. Heck Winchester makes 3 different 64gr softpoint rounds all 3 have different characteristics. Two are farily close and are decent rounds, one underpenetrates and shouldn't be considered for use. You must judge each round on its own merits not
So that's why I figured, why rely on FMJ to fragment when power points will break apart every time.
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Power points will fragment at close ranges - their purpose though is to expand and they do that fairly well (to .44"-.48")
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:05:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 357sig: Some Major LE Departments issue the 55 gr SP ammo for carbines.
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That doesn't make it the best (or even a good) choice. But they may have specific needs. For example, the 55gr Federal Tactial SP will work out of a 1:12 twist barrel (for those Depts with surplus M16A1s) and is one of the few 5.56 rounds that work against auto glass and still have decent terminal performance. (BTW this round doesn't fragment it just expands to about .46"). Again this is not true of other 55gr SP rounds - just this one. Its terminal performance isn't as good as the heavier rounds and it isn't as safe (missed shots) as other rounds easier. But it offers acceptable performance when barriers are present. [i]Note all data used for my posts in this thread come from Dr Robert's work: "Law Enforcemnt General Purspoe Shoulder Fired Weapons -- The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant" by Gary K. Roberst, D.D.S.[/i]
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:19:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: Its terminal performance isn't as good as the heavier rounds and it isn't as safe (missed shots) as other rounds easier. But it offers acceptable performance when barriers are present.
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Thanks for all your info and opinions. I'll be sure to give it consideration. I've noticed that you highly recommend the "heavier rounds". I'd go for them in a second if they didn't cost 2x or more what the M193 or M855 costs. Who the heck can afford to shoot large quantities of the 75 or 77 grn rounds? Not me, that's for sure. Some people have suggested to me to have one grain for plinking/practice and one for self defense (ie: SHTF). I don't like that idea You'd have to re-zero your rifle every time you switched rounds due to the different POI. Oh, well, I'll keep looking for what I feel works best for me. I'm sure it will be a compromise between affordability and effectiveness.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 9:15:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2003 9:17:00 AM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: Who the heck can afford to shoot large quantities of the 75 or 77 grn rounds?
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Yes the heavier rounds do cost a bit more. Black Hills Blue Box 68gr runs around $16-$17 box of 50 (that works out to $6.60 per 20 rounds - I see many places that sell Q3131A for $5 in this area. So its not that much more expensive. Heck I'm briniging 300+ rounds with my to my Carbine class this weekend - how else will I keep my flash down with my post-ban carbine? So you spend a little bit more ($1.60 per box equivalent), but you get far better terminal results and FAR less flash - seems like a fair trade off.
Some people have suggested to me to have one grain for plinking/practice and one for self defense (ie: SHTF). I don't like that idea You'd have to re-zero your rifle every time you switched rounds due to the different POI.
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Not really. If you're talking over 100 yard shots - then yeah you'll have to re-zero. But at self-defense ranges (we'll say 50 yards and under) it don't make a bit of practical difference - the rounds moving so fast the difference in point of impact is less an inch at 50 yards (confirmed by field testing and calculation). Doesn't matter if you practice with Wolf 55gr then switch to the NATO pressure 77gr - at practical self defense ranges it isn't going to matter. Last month I was doing a night shoot at the PFDC's Carbine 1 class. I used 55gr SA, 55gr Wolf, 68gr Black Hills and 75gr Black Hills at 50 yards against 10" steel gongs to test muzzle flash, BTW all the rounds 'rang the bell'. Best idea is to practice with what you use. However if $$ is tight - verify the selected ammo is reliable and accurate in your rifle, zero with it, then practice with the cheap stuff (even Wolf).
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 3:30:01 PM EDT
I agree with Forest as usual. If you want something better than M193 or M855, I'd look at the Black Hills 68 and 75 gr OTM ammo. It isn't that expensive when compared to mil-spec M193 and M855 loads. At $6.60 per 20 rounds, it's much cheaper than the Winchester 64 gr PPP that goes for $14 per box or more. Heck, even a box of non-premium Winchester or Remington 55 gr SP's will set you back $10 per box these days. And as he has mentioned, all the 55 gr SP's besides the TBBC bullet demonstrate inadequate penetration for defensive use. Also, a 20 rd box of the TBBC usually costs as much as $18...ouch. Don't compromise when dealing with defensive ammunition! Ever! If you can afford to pay $800-$1000 for a defensive AR carbine, then you can afford to buy decent defensive ammunition for it. At defensive ranges the Black Hills 75 gr OTM is superior to M193 or any soft point I have seen. And it is very much affordable. My advice would be to buy a couple of boxes of the new production Black Hills ammo. If you have a 1/7 twist go with the 75 gr version. If you have a 1/9 twist try the 75 gr and see if it's accurate enough in your particular gun. If not, back down to the 68 gr version. Then for practice or back-up ammo I would use the remanufactured stuff. Keep your rifle and a spare mag loaded with the new stuff. I can't think of many situations where two 30 rd mags would not be sufficient to handle the problems faced. Remember, we aren't talking about some sort of TEOTWAWKI situation here, just a self defense encounter. You aren't going to need thousands of rounds for this purpose. For stocking large quantities use M193. Your defensive ammo is specialty ammo and a couple hundred rounds on hand at a given time should suffice. Remember, this is the ammo you are betting your life on. So choose wisely and don't let cost dictate your decision. If the cost is still too great for practice, take a look at the Federal American Eagle 62 gr FMJ. It should be anywhere from $1-$2 cheaper per 20 rounds than the 75 gr OTM or 68 gr OTM. Dr. Roberts has reported that this load simulates many of the OTM loads reasonably well in terms of POI within defensive ranges. This could be a nice practice round for you. And as Forest has already stated, the POI within 50 yards isn't all that varied anyway. -Charging Handle
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