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Posted: 7/9/2003 8:58:32 PM EDT
I have a AR pistol with 7&1/4" barrel. Considering the vary obvious limitations in velocity, what would be a good round. I have only a 1X9 twist, so I really can't stabilize anything at all besides maby a 40gn varmit bullet. What would you all choose?
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 9:24:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By strongmad: I have a AR pistol with 7&1/4" barrel. Considering the vary obvious limitations in velocity, what would be a good round. I have only a 1X9 twist, so I really can't stabilize anything at all besides maby a 40gn varmit bullet. What would you all choose?
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With only a 7 1/4" barrel, you may keep the velocity down enough with the lighter weight ammo that it doesn't completely explode on impact as is the case with longer barrels. But to be completely honest, I haven't seen much testing done with barrels that short so I can't really say how good anything will perform in your gun. But if you like a simple man's opinion, if you want an AR type weapon for defensive purposes, get something with at least a 14.5" 1/7 twist barrel and use Black Hills 75 gr OTM. If you want a pistol, get a pistol. Just my .02 cents. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 9:53:21 PM EDT
You do have a point. If velocity is so low with the 7.24 you probably will only get wound profiles resembling a 22lr, or maybe a 22 cal wide tumbling channel, so you jsut abut myse'as'well get a 45 caliber assult pistol type weapon. Problem is, that I didn't know of any make that could take high capicity preban mags and so forth. We'll see how things look next september.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 3:25:45 AM EDT
I shot some ammo (5 round) over a cheap chrono recently-- Q3131A- 2382 avg SB SS109- 2345 avg 52gr HP handload, 26.5gr 748-- 2205avg I've used mine with scope and suppressor to get 4 squirrels last deer season.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 9:46:06 AM EDT
Well, I think that you should consider the gun as an interesting example of the hobbyists eccentricity. As a "self-defense" weapon you are almost at the end or the end of a twig on the family tree that should have been pruned a long time ago. Use a mix of soft pointed 40s and heavy FMJs and hope for the best while you fight your way back to the gun (almost any gun) that is more suitable for the task. If you are using that for self-defense are we to assume you got caught unawares at close range? Because it isn't going to be overly accurate at long range and if it isn't accurate enough for a couple of inch group in center of mass at short ranges then what ??. Pistols and long range generally doesn't mean self defense. There are a lot of weapons in that size range that would better suit a self-defense role. But if it's the only gun yah got and yah really need it. I would use the mix of lights and heavies, lights for shock and wound channel and the heavies for getting penetration, can't think of anything that will get yah both out of that.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 10:03:11 AM EDT
can you tell me a better weapon that size with hi capicity mags available that would be better for the role?
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 10:27:31 AM EDT
There is no ammo that would be adequate with that weapon. I'd say go heavy (75gr+) but with the 1:9 twist and lack of MV I don't think you'll get it stabilized for even CQB distances. Try it and see. All the low wegith HPs & SPs won't penetrate enough, and the MV too low for M193 to fragment (though it will penetrate enough). Might as well use a .22LR though. Save the AR pistol for pleasure (toy) and get a carbine for defensive use - or a pistol in a decent pistol caliber.
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 10:33:57 AM EDT
does any one know of any available and affordable "assult" style (takes hi capacity mags) pistols in pistol calibers???
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 10:38:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By strongmad: does any one know of any available and affordable "assult" style (takes hi capacity mags) pistols in pistol calibers???
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The only 'assault style' pistol worth a damn IMHO was the SP89 (HK MP5 w/o the stock). Prices for those are outrageous even for the clones. If you're looking for a decent handgun why not get a Glock 19/17 or Beretta 92 - High caps (as high as 33 rounds) are available (I have seen 30 round high caps for the 92). They are resonably priced, accurate, reliable, and durable (the last 3 can't be said about 95% of the so-called 'assult pistols').
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 4:32:00 AM EDT
I'd think the muzzle blast would be very effective in simple deterence. I mean, a fireball three feet long and 2 feet in diameter would be enough to get anyone's attention. I'm sure the concussion is similar to a small flashbang grenade. :) Plus you'll have 30 rds to take 'em down! If the bullet doesn't get 'em the blast certainly will! :)
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 3:53:32 PM EDT
The problem I see with these types of guns (this includes AR pistols, UZI's, Tec 9's, etc) is that they are awkward and hard to effectively employ. They are just big enough to make them difficult to aim and use as a pistol while not having a stock to allow it to be used as a carbine. The shorter sight radius and lower velocity just add to the problem. To me, these are just like shotguns with a pistol grip only and no buttstock. Sure, they look cool in the movies but aren't all that practical. You need aimed fire, not spray and pray to be effective. If I were you and wanted a compact, effective weapon at closer ranges, I would choose a Glock 17 or 19 9mm, or a high quality .45 ACP such as the H&K USP or a good 1911. Magazine capacity to me is of less concern than reliability, accuracy, and practicality. If you want something with more power, range and accuracy than the handgun, then an M4 style AR carbine is the ticket. It can be employed accurately like a rifle by bringing it up to the shoulder and firing it. You can't do this with an AR pistol. Also, the M4 would have enough barrel to allow the ammo to have decent performance and accuracy. As a previous poster stated, AR pistols are at best expensive toys. For serious use, get either a pistol or a carbine (or both). Each will perform better in their intended roles than some sort of "hybrid" design that tries to bridge the gap between the two. They are just too awkward to be practical. Notice that you only see these types of weapons used in movies and by gang bangers. I think that says it all right there. Hehe. Good luck. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 10:23:05 AM EDT
I do have a pistol, and a Rifle (a good 45 and a SP1 respectively), but I also have the AR pistol that is good for pulling out of a bag or a car or whatevr and can rock and roll if need be. Sure a better entry weapon would be a pistol caliber SBR (if I felt like getting an NFA weapon)b/c it would have better penetration and permanant wound channel and the stock, but I don't feel like getting a registered NFA weapon. I do make up for a lack of a stock somewhat by having a CAR-Stock sling adapter and a single point sling with a HK sling sling swivle. That way I can push out against the sling and sort of stabilize the weapon at an eye level two handed grip. Maybe some day when the AW ban sunsets I'll get an AR pistol lower w/ a 45 acp pistol upper, maybe one that takes UMP stick and beta mags. Hmmmmmmm. And I'll just use the same Car stock sling set up to make up for lack of a stock.
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 10:11:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2003 3:48:30 AM EDT by Tweak]
Originally Posted By Forest: I'd say go heavy (75gr+) but with the 1:9 twist and lack of MV I don't think you'll get it stabilized for even CQB distances. Try it and see.
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You're correct on the twist/MV issue with those loads Forest, DocGKR shows them for 1X7" shorties but not for 1X9". The info I have from the TE forum shows the only recommended load for a 1X9" "sub 14.5 inch" AR is Federal's 62 gr. Tactical JSP, stock # LE223T3. I believe the question was in relation to a HK G36 with a 9" barrel. Found the link [url=http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000114.html]Decent .223 performance from 9 in barrel??? [/url] SBR7_11, I'm assuming those velocities are from a 7" barrel?
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 3:58:20 AM EDT
I do have a pistol, and a Rifle (a good 45 and a SP1 respectively), but I also have the AR pistol that is good for pulling out of a bag or a car or whatevr and can rock and roll if need be.
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If this is the case, I don't see why you don't use the .45 pistol for your needs.If you're looking for something compact and can be taken everywhere, that would be your best choice.I don't see any scenarios other than movies where you'd need to have 30 rounds all at once.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 5:01:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/13/2003 5:03:01 AM EDT by Stryfe]
Originally Posted By strongmad: I also have the AR pistol that is good for pulling out of a bag or a car or whatevr and can rock and roll if need be.
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Just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to find a use for it. An AR pistol is a gimmic, a range toy. You'll be happier with the performance of your tool if you stick to the task the tool was intended for. I can't imagine an AR pistol being easy to pull out of anything. How are you going to rock-n-roll with a semi-auto pistol, bump-fire?
Sure a better entry weapon would be a pistol caliber SBR (if I felt like getting an NFA weapon)b/c it would have better penetration and permanant wound channel and the stock, but I don't feel like getting a registered NFA weapon. I do make up for a lack of a stock somewhat by having a CAR-Stock sling adapter and a single point sling with a HK sling swivel. That way I can push out against the sling and sort of stabilize the weapon at an eye level two handed grip.
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A non-NFA, rifle caliber, carbine makes a fine entry weapon. If you need one, you are better off using the right one rather than make do.
Maybe some day when the AW ban sunsets I'll get an AR pistol lower w/ a 45 acp pistol upper, maybe one that takes UMP stick and beta mags. Hmmmmmmm.
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Which would likely cost more than the afformentioned carbine.
And I'll just use the same Car stock sling set up to make up for lack of a stock.
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When the ban sunsets, you could add a colapsable stock to the carbine. You're trying to drive nails with a mallet because you think the mallet looks cool. Get a nail hammer.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 7:22:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tweak: SBR7_11, I'm assuming those velocities are from a 7" barrel?
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[blue] You are correct, these were from my 7.5" DPMS "KITTY KAT" upper. I have shot Speer 55gr SP handloads clean through a steel wheel @ 25-30yd, SOOOOOOOO....[/blue] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid58/p1d795ea1a8635718bedcf2b85c35a64e/fc681ade.jpg[/img] What did that other fella state:
Posted by "PaDanby" 7/10/2003 1:46:06 PM Well, I think that you should consider the gun as an interesting example of the hobbyists eccentricity
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[blue]I guess I resemble that comment[/blue]....... [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/p910ce68428efa01d58833a3c2f919c05/fbf22590.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 10:06:43 PM EDT
Some how those don't look like the "pistol" that was mentioned.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 3:55:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
Originally Posted By Tweak: SBR7_11, I'm assuming those velocities are from a 7" barrel?
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[blue] You are correct, these were from my 7.5" DPMS "KITTY KAT" upper. I have shot Speer 55gr SP handloads clean through a steel wheel @ 25-30yd, SOOOOOOOO....[/blue] [url]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid58/p1d795ea1a8635718bedcf2b85c35a64e/fc681ade.jpg[/url] What did that other fella state:
Posted by "PaDanby" 7/10/2003 1:46:06 PM Well, I think that you should consider the gun as an interesting example of the hobbyists eccentricity
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[blue]I guess I resemble that comment[/blue]....... [url]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/p910ce68428efa01d58833a3c2f919c05/fbf22590.jpg[/url]
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Are those REAL cans?
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 5:27:05 AM EDT
The large can is the American Manufacture "Triple-X", soon to be "Warrior" returned in the next couple days (I hope), and the stainless (smaller) is the Bowers "MOUT".
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 12:18:09 PM EDT
Another thing to factor in is that the "pistol" while seemingly smaller, can be longer than a rifle held to your shoulder, and less accurate at speed.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 7:47:56 PM EDT
Thanks for all the data and links guys. I have been only really getting into this sight for a few weeks, but I am really loving the community and info.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 8:56:27 PM EDT
Aren't those afformentionde 62 gn Federal JSP's the ones that he said on that link penetrated well but did not fragment at all b/c they were bonded bear claw bullets. Those would be good for glass and stuff, but I need a 62 or maybe 55gn grain bullet that fragments easily, but not two quickly, maybe a non-bonded 62 grain JHP or JSP, or maybe a bonded 62 grain JHP. Please tell me what you think? If I was psycho, I guess I could just dremmel the jacket of some XM193 alittle around the case kneck?
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 2:15:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SBR7_11: You are correct, these were from my 7.5" DPMS "KITTY KAT" upper.
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Cool, thanks SBR, another data point.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 5:47:37 AM EDT
Those guys were talking about the 100gr black hills ammo, can you buy that stuff or are they full of shit??
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 12:31:55 PM EDT
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