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Posted: 6/26/2003 6:12:53 PM EDT
Since there's so much love on this board for Russian ammo, I thought I'd post a picture of the Silver Bear 62gr HP. I don't know how some others get their cross sections, but it was a file and my belt sander, along with some hot and sore fingers to get the bullet ground down.

The bullet is not jacketed on the bottom; I wonder if that will change the expansion properties. I kind of doubt it for two reasons: 1) the lead slug internally would seem to be hard to push out of the bottom, and 2) it's a boat tail bullet, which would make that process even more difficult. A couple of milk jugs I blew up almost disintegrated - much more so than I would have expected froma non-expanding/fragmenting gullet.

Ultimately though, it's all guesswork until someone does a ballistic gelatin test. I wouldn't rely on this to be my defensive round anyway unless I had proof that 1) the bullet expands/fragments properly in ballistic gelatin and 2) at least 1000 rounds through my rifle without a hiccup.

But anyway. It seems to be cheap plinking ammo. Here's the picture:



I'll take an M193 bullet and do a cross section of it this weekend.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 7:17:41 AM EDT
Good post, thanks for the pics!
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 9:33:27 AM EDT
Excellent post! thanks for the info, very useful. -Spaceman
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 9:55:01 AM EDT
Great Post!
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:07:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zhukov: The bullet is not jacketed on the bottom; I wonder if that will change the expansion properties.
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No, since it has NO expansion properties.
Ultimately though, it's all guesswork until someone does a ballistic gelatin test.
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Already been done with Wolf ammo.
I wouldn't rely on this to be my defensive round anyway unless I had proof that 1) the bullet expands/fragments properly in ballistic gelatin and
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It doesn't. Instead, it acts more like a tube of toothpaste with the lead being squeezed out the base. Thanks for the pic, tho. How did you hold the bullet steady under the belt sander?
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:13:09 AM EDT
Nice pic
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 10:57:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 11:12:26 AM EDT
Are you guys sure there's NO expansion at all ? It's a HP after all. I would be very surprised to find out otherwise. I will try to rig up a water tank of some kind to recover the bullet after being fired. Water is not ballistic gelatin when it come to penetration depth, but I have an article from Fackler that it is pretty close to ballistic gelatin when it comes to expansion. Now I just need to figure out how to do it.... How did I hold it ? Old leather glove. Dropped it frequently (insert best Homer Simpson "Doh" expression about 40 times), and slightly burned fingers 'cause it got *really* hot. The tip in the bullet below looks kind of clogged. Turns out that the sander "smeared" some of the lead into the cavity, but it popped right out with an exacto knife. I may have to take another picture...
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 12:04:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zhukov: Are you guys sure there's NO expansion at all ? It's a HP after all. I would be very surprised to find out otherwise.
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Not all HPs are designed with expansion in mind. Take a look at the recent gelatin experiment of the 75 and 77gr HPs. Neither expanded. They fragmented instead. They don't have steel jackets like the Silver Bear does, which will prevent it from fragmenting.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 12:14:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2003 12:17:41 PM EDT by Ridge]
[size=5]OKAY!!!???[/size=5] So where's all the guys who told me that snipping off the tips of my PMC was dangerous because the bottom was not jacketed. Here's a production bullet that is basically the same thing that I made. Edit. Okay mine is copper jacket this is steel, maybe I'll consider this difference. And yes mine do fragment violently in water. Place 4-5 milk jugs in a single file line and shoot the first one. You will probably recover bullet fragments throughout the first and second jugs. I did (mine is 55gr BT FMJ with less than an 1/8 inch of the tip snipped off to make it HP). Edit: Maybe it won't fragment because it is a steel jacket, but I suspect it will.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 12:52:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge: Edit: Maybe it won't fragment because it is a steel jacket, but I suspect it will.
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Actually, it is a bi-metal jacket, not steel.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 1:01:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge: Place 4-5 milk jugs in a single file line and shoot the first one. You will probably recover bullet fragments throughout the first and second jugs.
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I've done this before with handgun bullets, but thought that if this thing really fragments, then I wouldn't find anything. What I will probably do is what you suggest: Line up milk jugs and blast away. I will also try and put some kind of enclosure around them (plywood) to catch fragments (or the bullet itself in case of non-fragmentation) in case it veers off.
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 3:24:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 8:50:35 AM EDT
Seems like it would pierce body armor pretty well. TS
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:24:41 AM EDT
A very distinguished member of this list, a certain Dr. Brouhaha, mentioned that Wolf 55gr HP's didn't expand in leftover ballistic gelatin. That's probably the definitive answer to the non-expandability of this ammo too. I doubt it'll perform much better although it does have about 150fps on the Wolf.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:45:00 AM EDT
Don't know about gelatin, but the factory 55gr HP makes a coyote real messy - You wouldn't be able to sell the fir!
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 12:38:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LRP: Don't know about gelatin, but the factory 55gr HP makes a coyote real messy - You wouldn't be able to sell the fir!
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LRP, Wolf 55gr HP? TS The Roung Roung and the A Shau are both still hostile AO's.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 2:49:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 11:48:08 AM EDT
Tiger Stripe, I use a lot of handloads but the Silver Bear 55gr HP does a real number on 'em at less than 200 meters. (I've pulled a few bullets to check the loads and they are pretty good) Haven't pushed anything out further than that with my AR. I've shot 'em at about 275 with a Rem 700 bull bbl but sold that thing to buy a new AR kit!!!
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 11:56:21 AM EDT
Guys, If you want good expansion and accuracy, you're gonna have to buy good ammo or reload. The new polymer tip stuff from Hornaday or Sierra is really nasty on varmints, and I'm sure anything else that is fairly thin skinned. I've done a lot of coyote shooting with a Rem 700 in 22-250 and 223, and nothing beats the explosive tip bullets in boat tail. Even the s-pitzers do an excellent job. I really like the little 45 gr hornet bullets, but you can't push 'em too fast or they will come apart on you before they ever get to the target. I ususally slow everything down about 2-300 fps so I can get good groups. For a self defense ammo in 223, I'd have to go with a 55 or 62gr spitzer. (Although Mr. Shotgun is still the best thing at two o'clock in the morning when awakened abruptly - won't matter if you forget to turn on the Red Dot or not!!!)
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