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Posted: 6/11/2003 3:22:08 PM EDT
Found batch fro sale of Black Tip M995 ammo. The headstamp says LC99 and LC 00. Looks like the real thing what do you think?
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 6:44:19 PM EDT
From what I have heard this ammo only comes linked. Is this ammo linked, or appears to have been de-linked? This would be a good sign, but it still may be doubtful if this is true AP ammo.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:23:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2003 8:23:49 PM EDT by H3At]
5 cases plz!![:D][:D][:D][:D]
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 8:59:07 PM EDT
Gee...I can paint some XM193 and sell it as M995 too, right? The stuff is so rare, SAW gunners rarely even see it, if ever. What you found is either the Igman SS109 reloaded into LC brass, or it's XM193 that somebody painted.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 9:40:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 11:02:45 PM EDT
And it would be illegal to sell to a civilian anyway. Why dont you just buy a DIAS and some full auto parts while oyur at it LOL! [;)]
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 3:50:05 AM EDT
By spec M995 is [b]Berdan[/b] primed. You won't find any of this in LC cases. I'm not sure any of this is made in the USA, despite being type classified. Last informaion I have is all of it is produced by FN overseas. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 5:02:06 AM EDT
We contracted a whole boatload of it from NAMMO recently. I doubt LC is making any.
Link Posted: 6/12/2003 12:55:28 PM EDT
I thought LC was making it. Anyways, will inquire further.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 7:46:17 AM EDT
How is M995 different from SS109, in general.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:17:43 AM EDT
M995 is true armor piercing ammo and is illegal for civilians to posess. M855 is lead core with a steel tip. It is NOT armor piercing and has only VERY slight added penetrating ability and only at extended ranges. M995 is tungsten core and does not fragment at all. It will pierce light armor plate that stops M855 dead in its tracks. M995 produces a very small wound channel.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:44:14 PM EDT
Alrighty, I know it is illegal for a person to manufacture or import AP ammo. I know it is illegal for a manufacturer or inporter to sell or distribute AP ammo. I cannot find any law that says you cannot purchase or possess AP ammo. If you can point me to it, I'd appreciate it.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 12:53:33 PM EDT
The laws on AP ammo start to get wonky when you get into the realm of handgun AP ammo. It's been a LONG time since I've gone over this with anyone who's really knowledable in this field but the laws banning AP ammo.. The regs that are out there seem to be created or meant to govern ammo for which common handguns can be found. The regs originally meant to nail the KTW type rounds or any handgun rounds that would punch holes through soft/hard armour either by way of construction, design(sharp truncated cone), or by combination of construction/design. Where the 5.56x45mm/223Rem gets nailed is that there are readily available handguns for this chambering. A couple single shot bolt action or target/hunting handguns but they are relatively easy and common. Same goes for 7.62Nato/308Winchester AP ammo, you can find handguns for that chambering as well. But then moving onto 50BMG AP or old 30-06 Springfield M2 AP ammo, those are definitely AP rounds by way of construction but it seems to be fine to sell or trade. However I am not sure if it would be legal to manufacture and sell. Brings into question, if a person had the components such as old 165grn AP pulls if they would be fine loading them for 30-06, 300RUM, or 300WinMag but what type of trouble they would get in if they loaded those same bullets into 308Winchester(relatively available 308 handguns). It's definitely one of the more tricky set of rules and regulations to figure out.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 3:51:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 3:51:41 PM EDT by DevL]
AP handgun ammo is illegal to posses. .223 is handgun ammo. The only ammo specifically allowed is the 30.06 ammo as it was standard ammo in the Garand. 50 BMG is not specifically allowed in this way. If someone makes a .50 BMG pistol. Even one. Ever. 50 BMG AP ammo will be illegal too. As to the intricacies of pulling M2 AP bullets and loading them into a .308 I have no idea and I am not a lawyer so go consult one if you wanna know about that. [;)]
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:33:34 PM EDT
I was going to copy all the Code I could find on AP ammo, but the ATF has already done an excellent job of it here: [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm[/url] [url=http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/pIch44.html]Here's[/url] the law on firearms if you want to see for yourself. I've gone over it a couple times and I don't see anything about possession. If you find it, let me know.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:46:44 PM EDT
There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Thats a quote from FirearmsTactical.com If I am mistaken and there is no law against posession other than as an add on to a viloent or drug related crime I appologise for my idiotic comments.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:50:31 PM EDT
McMillan has made single shot .50 BMG pistols. There was a video out a while back of guys hunting cape buff with them.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 5:55:24 PM EDT
I think the law prohibits FFL's from selling AP to civilians.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 6:31:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2003 6:34:09 PM EDT by uglygun]
I could see where suddenly a person could get themselves into a lot of trouble if they made use of solid copper or bronze projectiles with the 308Winchester or the 223Remington. If one of the first sections stating the construction of AP type ammo was to be strictly followed,[I]"(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper"[/I]. What would be the result to the typical shmoe out there who handloads with the available copper solids on the market? Like the Barnes solids made of copper/zinc. I'm not sure what their hardness is but for awhile now I've been meaning to try the 165grn 30cal. spire point solid in my 300WinMag to compare it to known results of other bullets, I know what 190grn SMKs will do as well as, uh... other bullets fired from same 300WinMag. Also curious about their 110grn and 125grn copper solids at something rediculous like 3400-3500fps for the 125s and 3600-3700fps for the 110s, hmmmmmmmm. I've got a 1 1/4 inch steel plate with some pretty wicked battle scars on it, the Barnes solids will be interesting. If that copper melts, like I'm thinking it will, it may put quite a nasty hole in the steel. Checking Barnes website, they've got .224 offerings as well. These silly regs on construction and availability of handguns in these chamberings really makes you wonder. Ofcourse these regs were meant for more typical low powered handgun rounds and the ability for the stupid things to defeat soft body armour thanks to special design/construction. We all know it won't make much of a difference if a 223Rem. or 308Win. chambered handgun was using lead core bullets or solid core true AP ammo. Now I'm rambling for sure. It's just that this stuff fascinates me, it's cool to see just what can and cannot put a hole through might thick chunks of steel or through really hard plate. Then see how a little change in construction might lead to success as opposed to failure.
Link Posted: 6/14/2003 10:57:14 PM EDT
There is no way that ammo is M995... Before i left the military we tested some M995 and it was like GOLD to us. We got about 10 cans and they said that was all there was. We can get pallets of anything else, but all the ammo guys could do was 10 cans. 10 gunners. We had to shoot our can and write a report discussing how it fealt, how it fired, and the damage we did to differing materials placed at varying distances from us. We put in a request for 10 more cans a couple weeks later for gunnery and we were denied citing 1) there was too little available for issue even for combat units 2) they were not issuing because of the possibility it could end up on the civilian market. We probably wont see this ammo. Also, the M855 ammo is rather good at punching through most armour. We can put a hole right through a IIIA with some of it at close range.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 5:52:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DJ_Kling: Also, the M855 ammo is rather good at punching through most armour. We can put a hole right through a IIIA with some of it at close range.
View Quote
Since when would level IIIA stop standard 5.56 rounds?
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 7:34:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut: Since when would level IIIA stop standard 5.56 rounds?
View Quote
It doesn't!!![}:D] That's why any "home invaders" in my neighborhood who try to be slick and wear body armor are in for a rude awakening when I open up on them with my Bushmaster...good ol' Lake City gonna punch right through that IIIA vest ya bought at a gun show like it was cardboard...come get some, thug boys!!![sniper]
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 12:37:17 PM EDT
IIIa is even nice enough to flatten out standard .223 a bit to enlarge the wound channel.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 2:49:10 AM EDT
Sorry, should have specified... "Right through" meaning occasionally front AND back :) IIIa is easy prey for most rifle rounds, thus why if it comes down to a home invasion, i'm all about my M4, not my Glock. .40HP will easily be defeated by some vests...
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 3:24:48 AM EDT
The directions on my Second chance IIIa vest talk about the front insert (aka chicken plate) might stop a .223 round if hit at distance (100 yards?) and an angle ... all not very good odds even on a very good day ;-). Regards John
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 11:53:37 PM EDT
My take on the AP thing is up in the air however I did a test today on how well XM193 penetrates. I placed one phone book and multiple kevlar layers(about 40) inside an ammo can, shot it at a distance of about 75ft. The rounds went in one end and out the other.[shock] Next time I'm gonna try two boxes same setup though I'll fill the remaining space between lavers with water. I got some before and after pics of the can that I can post if anyone is interested. So I'm not sure how much of an advantage AP rounds would be unless say a bg was wearing lv.4 w/ceramic plates, even then how often would that happen, heck if I were them I'd sell the vest and buy a car with the cash.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 12:29:43 AM EDT
Class 4 armor will stop just about anything short of a .50 BMG. It is tested to stop .30-06 AP. M855 won't do much. M995 might... Either way, im not worried. I shoot first. Aim High.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 1:44:59 AM EDT
I was told by a well-meaning individual that the AP laws only apply to NATO calibers (5.56 x 45, 9mm). I'm not to sure he is correct though. My 1944 Mosin Negant fires 7.62 x 54R round. That bullet pierces some SERIOUS steel! However, those rounds are not classified as "AP". They are just surplus FMJ's. On the flip side, "ammunitionstore.com" sells 147gr, black tipped AP rounds. They are even advertised as AP. ??? I think to classify a particular round as AP the bullet jacket needs to be 25% or more the overall bullet weight. AGH! Now I'm all confused! Somebody help!
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 2:12:38 AM EDT
That's the whole point...they make the laws as confusing as possible. THat way they can bust you and make you look liek an evil villan with your cop killing bullets. Horseshit, i know...
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