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Posted: 5/17/2003 10:40:17 PM EDT
I know that soft or hollow point ammo penetrates walls less than conventional pistol ammo, but does the same apply to FMJ ammo? I`m bent on using Winchester Q3131A but I`m not sure if it would be safe if I had to use them for defense.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:37:37 AM EDT
All I can say is I went to the range a few days ago and shot that ammo at 200 yards at a quarter inch plate target and the bullets went right thru it. I was a bit amazed. I thought you needed armor piercing to go thru something like that at that range.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 5:15:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By spork: I`m bent on using Winchester Q3131A but I`m not sure if it would be safe if I had to use them for defense.
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If you have a shotgun you might want to consider that for home defense.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:00:00 AM EDT
All 5.56 full power ammo will penetrate MULITIPLE sheetrock type interior stud walls, hollowpoint or not. The hollowpoints will just fill up and become solid nose. Rifles have never been good home defense weapons for this reason. Shotguns with small shot like #9 is much better for inside the house where danger to your family in other rooms is of concern and poor light for aiming is a problem. 00 buck is for penetration NOT pattern. Stick with small shot indoors, you won't have a problem with overspread at indoor distances.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:06:41 AM EDT
5.56 fmj will reliably penetrate .25" mild steel at 100 yds, telephone poles(creosote)10" at 50 yards. Sheetrock, paneling,pine studs will offer NO resistance to ball ammo until the layers come in multiples of 5 or more.PSP ammo will be marginally better in urban applications.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 7:04:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 7:10:52 AM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
ALL of you need to go here: [url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url] because you are all wrong. Especally here:[url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/#jspsafe[/url]
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:14:43 AM EDT
thats funny we had a few dozen bowling pins and XM193 didnt go through them. as did malaysian and S&B the pins are all filled with the bullets
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:04:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 10:07:12 AM EDT by uglygun]
If an AR15 is to be used indoors and overpenetration is a concern, it is critical to give special consideration to ammunition selection. [url]http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html[/url] [url]http://www.olyarms.com/223pen.html[/url] [url]http://www.olyarms.com/gunsite.html[/url] Just for a bit of additional reading on top of what is said at the Ammo Oracle page. I personally have 2 magazines I keep next to my AR15, one is loaded down with 40grain Vmaxes that are very likely to under penetrate with just about anything they come in contact with and then in the spare magazine holder I have a mag loaded with 55grain M193 spec ammo. I also have a unique home situation where the shot from one end of the hallway to the other end of the hallway is on the order of 25 yards. Little too far for me to want to start blasting away with a shotgun or feel confident with a handgun under a stressful situation. I also don't really need to worry much about over penetration in this home due to multiple interior walls, front of the house faced in brick, and the block wall surrounding my back yard. The chances of a round escaping the confines of this house is pretty low, especially when using my Vmax loads.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:11:25 AM EDT
Never understood that a 9mm will penetrate more than the 5.56mm! They must be useing jhp /varmit loads
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:33:22 AM EDT
yipper ill contest to the bowling pin theory , we shot at em all the time,, a 6 pound pin will weigh double that at the end of our shoot, the only ones that get through are the ones that hit the sides, other than that, i havent gotten one to go through the middle and this is with MIl surplus ammo , and regular stuff.also my 7.65X 54r didnt go through it either.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 10:38:56 AM EDT
If we're "all" wrong ArmdLbrl, how come your link supports what I said about sheetrock penetration and that light shot in a shotgun is less likely to over penetrate?
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:00:33 AM EDT
While 5.56 FMJ bullets don't penetrate as much as many people think, they WILL penetrate normal housing materials. If you don't believe me, then try it for yourself. However, comparing the penetration of steel to other materials doesn't tell the story either. When a pistol bullet contacts something soft, the only decent way to get it to slow down is for it to expand. When the 5.56 contacts something soft, it tumbles and hopefully breaks apart thus causing it to slow down. FMJ handgun bullets penetrate through many relatively soft materials (like houses) because they do not expand or tumble and therefore lose velocity slowly. FMJ 5.56 bullets still tumble in housing materials and therefore don't penetrate as far. The reason that the 5.56 penetrates steel better is that the energy is concentrated on a very small tip and helps penetrate hard things (like steel) better. Compare the tip of a 5.56 bullet to a handgun bullet and you will see why the 5.56 penetrates steel better. The impact of the handgun bullet is spread over a much larger area. Of course the 5.56 has far more energy too. In my experience, hollowpoint handgun bullets penetrate roughly about as much as FMJ 5.56 in building materials and both penetrate less than FMJ handgun bullets.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 1:07:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 4:45:12 PM EDT by MitchG]
ColtRifle is right about building material penetration vs steel. The 55 grain bullet being the miltary bullet that is upset most easily and, in my opinion, is still the best combat bullet for the average foot soldier for this reason. BUT, my statement to spork's post still stands. ANY center-fire rifle cartridge is a high risk in the home defense situation due to penetration problems. There ARE better choices and they should be considered if your families lives are at risk. People can spout all the data and Internet sources that they want about ballistic performance and penetration but when it comes down to it, are YOU willing to line your family members up on the other side of 2 walls of building sheetrock and fire in their direction because someone else said that the 5.56 won't penetrate that far? It is best to err on the side of safety. If Gene Stoner's rifle is the only self-defense weapon that you have, then by all means use it. Then, as Uglygun said, use the lightest, most easily upset bullet you can buy but don't count on it being safe on the other side of a wall at the risk of your family's lives. The problem is that many people have tried to make that AR series of rifles in something they were never designed to be and will never be. If it's the only thing you have, that's fine, but don't try to make it into something it's not or try to convince yourself that just because you own one, it's the best thing to be used in EVERY situation. There are a lot of folks out there that buy a single AR style rifle, fire 1000 rounds of ammo through it and go read "The Black Rifle" and are suddenly the most knowledgeable person out there on the subject. The AR is a GREAT design, one of the worlds best. But it still may NOT be the best military assault rifle out there. Until I have used everyone out there, in combat situations, I cannot make that judgement. I love the rifle. I have built over 30 of them and am far from being an expert. The AR rifle does most everything well. Just don't think it is the best thing in every situation just because it's what you own.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 2:25:59 PM EDT
Dude, don't tell me I'm wrong when the source of your knowlege is what you have read. I have a range on my place I have shot lots of steel and 5.56 55gr fmj Will penetrate .25 plate(A36 hotroll) everytime at 100yds as long as the shot is not at an oblique angle. It will penetrate .375 80% of the time(same alloy material).For you AK/7.62X39 fans out there,7.62x39 will put a good divot in .375 but no RELIABLE penetration at 100yds. I have bunches of surplused out telephone poles that I use for fence posts,back stops,and building materials. Shoot it with a 5.56 55gr fmj and what do you get....exit hole. 9mm will not penetrate either material from any distance out of any length barrel(unless maybe the pole was severely rotted to the point where it would no longer stand). As for bowling pins this is a different issue. A bowling pin will move and absorb energy in the process of being hit. A bowling pin is a big thick piece of laminated hardwood(plywood) with a resin jacket.Take one of those pins apart and look at it.The grain structures are linearly opposed to provide the greatest density and resistance to compression.A bowling pin is a tough cookie(7.62x51/.308win penetrates pins reliably). A piece of .50 or .625 sheetrock doesn't move, has no grain structure and is crumbly crap with paper on either side of it.Pine studs(standard wall stud material) are similarly flimsy crap.Watch the martial arts guys doing the board breaking. They're not breaking laminated hardwood.They're breaking pine sawn with the grain and it will split easily. Wall studs are designed to support a vertical load and so are also sawn WITH the grain and offer virtually no penetration resistance. Don't call BS if you don't KNOW. Come on down to my place and we'll shoot some shit and you can go home with a new appreciation for centerfire rifle penetration on real objects. Oh by the way if you want to bring a car to shoot go ahead,bullets don't bounce off of them like on TV either.LOL
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 3:52:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 3:54:55 PM EDT by uglygun]
The point that high vel. bullets penetrate through hard materials differently than through soft materials is a solid statement. Hell, bullet construction with the 5.56x45mm doesn't really even matter that much if you are trying to defeat mild steel, velocity at time of impact is by and large the most relavent issue. Jacket material matters not as I've put similar holes through steel while using soft tipped spire point bullets, Nosler Balistic Tips will do similar damage. But the sharp pointy tips do help to some degree with the high velocity, it focuses the energy so that it is concentrated onto a smaller point and helps to fatigue the metal. Something about the bullet impacting with that hard material makes it less prone to tumbling, but then the steel being shot is also not very thick so it's hard to know if they are beginning to tumble or not as they liquify and crater the steel. Compare to the thin steel that ordinary 5.56x45mm can penetrate to the [B]1 1/4 inch[/B] steel that I've very nearly put holes in while shooting old 165grn M2 AP pulls from a 300Winchester Mag, the 5.56x45mm penetrates so such a shallow depth of material it is hard to tell if it is starting to yaw. But looking at the bullets coming out of the 300WinMag it is possible to see that some bullets do begin to yaw as they pass into the steel, some appear to yaw more than others and I'm doing my damnedest to get impact angles as square as possible. Then moving onto my experience in shooting action rifle matches and the very simple barriers that I have managed to shoot through due to my screw ups. Some of the IPSC targets we were shooting were placed behind barricades comprised of only one sheet of ordinary 3/16 inch plywood. The targets were maybe 2-3 feet behind the target and after my errant shots that went through the barriers you could see on the targets very pronounced key holes from where the bullet was already upset and tumbling. Tons of things must be considered to try to get an idea of what a bullet will and will not do. Having as much relavent information as is possible goes a LONG way to helping you make an informed decision. Back to my house, I am fortunate enough to know the PRECISE construction of my home down to what type of insulation is used in the walls. My house is using 2x6 interior wall thickness instead of being built with thinner 2x4s, I also have thicker insulation in most every wall in the house to increase it's thermal effeceincy. Beyond that I also know that a great number of the walls in my house are sheer walled because we live in California and it's wise to have some additional structual integrity in the land of the Earthquakes. Some of the thicker walls in my house will have sheer wall on both sides with sheet rock over the tops of that and rather thick R22 insulation in the middle of that. Considering the front of the house is brick and the backyard is surrounded by a block wall, I don't neccesarily think that a 40grn Vmax and most likely even a 55grain M193 round is very likely to exit the house or the premises. Now would I choose the same firearm if I moved to a different location like an apartment complex with thin walls of unknown construction? Not very likely. But still I feel that my particular choice for this particular residence is a wise decision. With one exception, I don't much like the thought of firing an AR15 indoors due to muzzle blast. But then a handgun or a shotgun wouldn't be all that great either. I desperately need to get myself a pair of those electronic ear muffs and keep them next to whatever home defense firearm I am using. [i]oh, and if anyone wants to see them I'll post pictures of the steel plate later :) it has both 5.56x45mm M193 craters, 190grn 300WinMag craters, and big deep 165grn 300WinMag driven holes with penetrators sticking out the back side. If I can bump velocity by another 100fps at time of impact I think I'll have holes clean through the plate, shooting for 3300fps muzzle velocity.[/I]
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:35:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2003 4:47:54 PM EDT by MitchG]
Uglygun, Mostly good insight, but for one, I'm glad you know your home's construction as I cannot imagine many other homes having insulated interior walls. I'd imagine that better than 99 percent of all homes don't have this extra non-essential thermal protection in the interior walls unless they have individual room heating and cooling systems. Let alone 2x6 stud work. You have quite a unique dwelling. Also, I have only considered the penetration of interior walls, NOT projectiles leaving the dwelling through thicker and mostly harder surfaced walls that pose a much smaller threat to others. I'm glad that you even own such weapons since you live out on the left coast. We have gotten away from the original post's question though. I still stand by my reply to spork, if you are restricted to only using a 5.56 rifle for home defense, use the lightest most frangible projectile (one that will reliably cycle your rifle)that you can buy, or reload, to reduce the chance of harming your loved ones in the next room.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:43:50 PM EDT
When our home was being built we went through and did the extra stuff ourself. It wasn't part of the contract job to add insulation to the home or do sheer walling but we came in after hours and did it ourselves. We figured having insulation in the walls would help not only with temperature insulation but also with sound dampening. It was the ultimate "it couldn't hurt" attitude that we were using doing this sort of thing while running our wiring for in wall speakers and intercoms. Sheer walling was also something we decided to do on all rooms that had wall heights inexcess of 10 feet, that means most of the bigger rooms have it. Unique house for sure, one that gives me a bit of latitude when deciding what is suitable. My action rifle experiences have taught me that I am much more confident with the AR15 in my hands than I am with a handgun or even a shotgun. Even after years of hunting with shotguns I favor the AR15 for this particular instance. Not to mention the one I'm using is all decked out with Aimpoint Comp M plus a Surefire M500A tactical light.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 4:58:06 PM EDT
Being confident and comfortable with your weapon has immeasurable benifits. I just hope we haven't greatly confused Mr. spork. Has any of this been helpful Mr. spork?
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 5:21:13 PM EDT
I know how to settle this. Somebody build 4 or 5 wall sections from 2x4's and sheetrock. Separate the sections by 12 to 15 feet (the average size of a room). Mark off areas for progressive shooting (1 square foot sections). Fire 1 round into each section at varying distances from 10 feet to 25 feet in 5 foot increments. If the walls are 4x8, this will allow you to use 4 different bullet types and weights. The results, while not very scientific, would allow you to see the performance of YOUR ammo out of YOUR rifle. Of course the walls could be modified to duplicate you own home's walls, via construction and/or spacing. The results will be the same. Make sure to mark each bullet strike in each wall before shooting the next round, just so the performance can be acurately noted. If someone does this, please video tape it and post it so the disbelievers will have evidence to the contrary.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:13:49 PM EDT
I actually have a plan to do something like this but I'm gonna set it up a bit differently. I'm gonna make one single test wall to simulate the lowest quality wall within my house. Then on the back side I'm gonna make big giant stands out of PVC pipe to which I am going to attach sheets of paper going across their width, pannels of 4x6 feet probably. I'm gonna have a few of these paper walls and I am going to seperate them by 4 feet between walls. I want to get a trace of the bullet fragments coming out of the wall when the exit and hopefully have each sheet of paper show relative sizes of the bullet fragments or debris that exited the wall. I had an idea of taping blown up balloons to the last sheet of paper, kind of like a carnival balloon/dart game, just to see which fragments are still taveling at high enough velocity to pop any balloons. Scientific? Not really, kinda a half assed compromise between going through the expensive making multiple walls and not doing the test at all. Maybe instead of putting balloons on the last sheet of paper I could just put a couple dozen sheets of baloney to simulate fleshy material? :) If anyone remembers that far back, somebody did a test where they built a small sample wall and on the back side of the wall where the round was expected to exit they taped a package of baloney. The exiting debris was enough to shred the package of lunch meat but I'm not sure if there would have been as much destruction if the debris was given a chance to spread out as distance from the wall increased.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 11:06:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MitchG: ColtRifle is right about building material penetration vs steel. The 55 grain bullet being the miltary bullet that is upset most easily and, in my opinion, is still the best combat bullet for the average foot soldier for this reason. BUT, my statement to spork's post still stands. ANY center-fire rifle cartridge is a high risk in the home defense situation due to penetration problems. There ARE better choices and they should be considered if your families lives are at risk.
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This common misconception has done more damage to agencies with CQB mandates than just about any other ballistic myth I know about. I personally know of two circumstances where it cost innocent lives. It was something of a battle to get GEK to finally go back to AUGs from the crap the ignorant civilian "oversight" groups (who had never even read a study on the subject) had us using for CQB because it was politically incorrect to be using weapons that might actually get the job done without killing people a house over. Unfortunately, it took a civilian death to finally get the switch made. The switch to pistol caliber sub-machine guns driven by this baseless overpenetration claim and mostly chambered in 9mm or even more dangerously .40 S&W or 10mm has left many CQB teams undergunned from an anti-personnel view and with weapons that actually penetrate far worse than the .223 setups they replaced in CQB environments. Of course, the manufacturers of subguns were highly complicit, happily selling 9mm subguns designed for urban CQB and then happily selling the same agencies .40 and then 10mm replacements when stoppage problems developed. Has anyone here ever actually fired 9mm, .40 S&W or 10mm out of a 8.9" barrel? I have tested the MP5, MP5/40 and MP5/10 extensively and maintain that among the most irresponsible things a law enforcement officer can do is loose 3 round burst when drywall is in the background and the entire structure has not been cleared. Out of anything over 14.5" .223, even FMJ, simply penetrates less after striking light building materials than heavy (124 grain and +) 9mm from 4" barrels. Tests with drywall in particular bear this out. The exceptions start with FMJ rounds over 70 grains for .223 and with 9mm rounds too light and slow to be effective (SAAMI standard pressure 115 grain HP). The most on point tests from the most authoritative source were performed by the FBI's Firearms Training Unit and are outlined in part in [url]http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html[/url]. If you are quite paranoid about such things you may wish to use OTM rounds. Getting these heavy enough to do good tissue damage will tend to increase your problems with interior penetration though. This myth, like other firearms myths, is fed by the fact that the result seems counter-intuitive. You can see this even in this post as people cite backyard testing and .223 performance against steel plate. This has nothing at all to do with actual wounding ability after encountering barriers. Does anyone have interior walls of steel plate? Even if so, has anyone put gel behind steel plate to measure post penetration wounding? Slower, heavier rounds (like handgun rounds) do not break up after striking building materials and instead retain most of their mass and continue to penetrate through multiple barriers. Ironically it is their slow speed that makes this possible. Handgun rounds can penetrate as much as 18" to 20" in gel or tissue after encountering wallboard or drywall. Hollowpoints are plugged up and end up acting like heavy FMJ. Most .223 will barely hit the 5" to 6" mark after one layer of drywall and 5 feet of air. No bullshit bottom line: You are better off using long gun launched .223 for home defense than 9mm HP ammo out of your handgun if overpenetration is your worry.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 1:34:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 1:52:31 AM EDT by MitchG]
Excuse me Austrian, but would you kindly point out anywhere in any of my posts where I recommended a pistol caliber as being a better choice? The point you make is that pistols and carbine rifles, firing pistol caliber rounds are more dangerous from a penetration standpoint. Please read all my posts before you go quoting me out of context. I said that there are better home defense choices than the AR series of rifle or any centerfire rifle cartridge for that matter. You wrongly assumed that I think something of pistol caliber is better. Your mistake, not mine.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 4:00:35 AM EDT
5 to 6 inches of penetration is most of the way through my 11 and 13 year old gel test mediums. I don't have any 220 pound children or spouse. I understand that these little projectiles tumble and yaw "AFTER" passing through light building materials.The after part is what worries me. I guess I'm guilty of these "backyard" experiments and promoting these "myths" that have left you undergunned. If this is the case I appologize to you for leaving you undergunned,and will keep my unscientific tests to myself in the future. Bear in mind though that many of the people reading these forums have never shot more than paper targets at a shooting range and have no real concept of these rounds ability to penetrate a wide variety of materials while retaining enough velocity to kill or wound innocents on the other side.I sincerely hope that you are not the victim of my "hillbilly science" and that there are no victims of your brand of science either. Now I have to take my gel test mediums to school so they can be better scientists than I.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 5:17:40 AM EDT
Stick with HP handgun loads or decide what .223 load meets your needs and go with it. Don't get too worried about excessive penetration with either of the above loads because both will penetrate two sheets of drywall. There is no reliably performing load that will provide great terminal ballistics and at the same time not exit an interior wall. We can't plan for all the possibilities that could happen. The .223 will work just fine in a house. It's better to not worry too much about the actual load and instead spend more time practicing so that if you ever need to shoot someone inside the house, hopefully you won't miss.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:16:23 AM EDT
The only thing that is going to exit a couple sheets of drywall is a bunch of bullet fragments if you use M193. Sure, 1 inch from exit, you are going to get hurt, but the next wall is relatively safe. Some folks just don't understand that 1/4" steel penetration doesn't translate to 1/4 neighborhood penetration. Those of you who have ever penetrated steel: Have you ever arranged paper sheets behind the target to see what actually goes through? I have. Even after shooting very light targets such as plywood, plastic, thin steel, the bullets are mostly small particles. V-Max is a poor bullet for use on people. I wouldn't trust my life to it period. They don't penetrate enough to be effective.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:00:52 AM EDT
The point of this whole thread was to determine what the characteristics of 5.56 vs pistol were when shooting inside a building. Everybody that has posted here has an OPINION on how their home defense/self-protection should be done. Spork asked if he should use Q3131 or was something else better. Uglygun stated he like his AR because of the distances inside HIS house. I prefer my G-21. Why, because I am comfortable with it. Do I worry about overpenetration into another room, NO, because I practice enough to be confident to hit what I shoot at. The ability of a round to penetrate building walls is just one of many things a person has to take into consideration when planning on using a weapon for self defense. And that planning should allow for varied opinions from others. Knowing your equipment and what it can and cannot do is vital for your survival, both during and after an incident.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 9:52:56 AM EDT
I think we need to do the penetration test with whatever makes it out of the perps torso. Lebrew
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:14:57 AM EDT
WICH HAS MORE PENETRATION 5.56 or 9mm? The Question is to VAGUE? Hell what about the AP 5.56mm does it break up after 1/4 inch plate? Didnt I read in the Black Book that the SS109 Bullet pass threw Both sides a steel helmet at 800 yards! Could a 9mm do this? Depends on the Type of Test you use!
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 11:51:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 11:51:33 AM EDT by Austrian]
Originally Posted By MitchG: Excuse me Austrian, but would you kindly point out anywhere in any of my posts where I recommended a pistol caliber as being a better choice?
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Sure. Right after you point out where in my post I said you made such a recommendation. I actually took issue with this quote below.
ANY center-fire rifle cartridge is a high risk in the home defense situation due to penetration problems.
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This just isn't so compared to about any common "home defense" round you would like to measure.
The point you make is that pistols and carbine rifles, firing pistol caliber rounds are more dangerous from a penetration standpoint. Please read all my posts before you go quoting me out of context.
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All of your posts are available on this thread for anyone who wants to look. That sentence stood alone and I copied the entire paragraph to give it context. The post itself is only 5-6 posters up. What exactly are you worried about?
You wrongly assumed that I think something of pistol caliber is better. Your mistake, not mine.
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I am not sure where you see this. I never took any position on what caliber you prefer for home defense. It is not important. Instead I point out in my post that your view on the relative "risk" of overpenetration for centerfire rifle rounds is common and overblown. I then point out that it is exactly this error which has lead OTHERS to replace said rounds with more dangerous pistol rounds out of subguns fro CQB use. You made no comment about the usefulness of these rounds, confining your remarks instead to shotguns. I am not entirely certain where it is that you think I took issue with your personal views at all, except with respect to some level of "high risk" of overpenetration that is somehow magically linked to the fact that a round is centerfire and fired from a rifle despite all evidence to the contrary. The point remains. Most .223 is not "high risk" for interior overpenetration compared to anything except perhaps birdshot.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 12:03:32 PM EDT
Here is a first hand testament about the the subject. A round was discharged 3 feet from the first wall. It was a FMJ either Winchester or Federal. The angle it hit the walls was around 45 degrees. It passes thru a door jam, 2 2X4's, 2 1/2" sheets of drywall,1 sheet of 1/2" wafer board, and still managed to take out the web of a cinder block. Fortunately it did not exit the house. I found no evidence of the bullet tumbling. I did recover a small portion of the jacket
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:12:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2003 7:20:06 PM EDT by spork]
Egads! I didn`t start a fire, did I? I was just wondering if 5.56mm hollow or soft point was as safe as FMJ indoors. As far as I know, HP and SP 5.56mm is safer than buckshot or handgun rounds while indoors. What I didn`t know was whether or not FMJ 5.56mm was also safe. I didn`t want to be at a disadvantage with HP or SP ammo, but I didn`t want to endanger innocent lives with FMJ ammo. So allow me to rephrase the question: Should I keep some good `ol Q3131A for when the SHTF, or leave them for use on the range?
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 7:30:26 PM EDT
This is a true account of one shooting into a dwelling house where a 9mm ball round was used. A handgun was used to shoot it. The round entered the exterior vinyl siding, went through the sheathing, interior insulation, interior wallboard, went through an interior hollow door, through two layers of wallboard, hit a 6" round bedpost, broke that in half, the bullet was deflected approx 90 degrees to the right, went through two more layers of wallboard, another two layers, then hit the rear of a dresser and fell to the floor. So that's a bedroom, a closet, another bedroom, a hallway and the third bedroom. Who knows what a how far a hollow point would go, but that's some pretty serious over penetration! Mark
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 8:45:46 PM EDT
Both the FBI and the RCMP have doen extensive ballistic testing of pistol, shotgun , and rifle rounds in the CQB setting. From what I have observed both shooting and observing and reading others test data - I would take Austrians recommendations to the bank. I firmly believe the 75 or 77gr 5.56mm BTHP's are the current best conventional rounds available in the CQB environment (well the 7.62mm 155gr AMAX might be better but that is another story)
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 10:18:22 PM EDT
real world, first-hand experience, demonstrating why i will no longer keep a loaded 9mm in the house: round was negligently discharged at an angle about 80 degrees at a distance of 15 feet. went through sheetrock wall, out other side, into shower stall, through sheetrock wall, out other side, through adjoining apartment's shower stall, travelled 6 feet, hit sheetrock wall, ricocheted at 45 degree angle, through sheetrock wall, bounced off of flimsy interior door (handle of which happened to be in residents hand at the time, scaring the bejeezus out of him, nuff said!). ammo was 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 gr out of glock 19. i realize this has nothing to do with .223 use indoors, HOWEVER, i think it is a good demonstration of why I, and possibly others, would rather risk .223 than use a 9mm indoors (first choice is still a shotgun, chambered with 7.5 birdshot followed by some buck...). by the way, bullet was recovered...absolutely no expansion whatsoever. hollowpoint was plugged with drywall, and other than that it was so unexpanded i probably could have reloaded it into a fresh case!
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 12:07:30 PM EDT
Not long ago, someone on this board had put up an experiment test with the 5.56. Here are the pics: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12345[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12346[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12347[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12348[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12349[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12350[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12351[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12352[/img]
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:17:30 PM EDT
You know, after seeing this debate for the umpteenth time, I often think that the question should be "Why would you want to shoot at a potentially lethal threat with something that won't penetrate an interior wall of sheetrock and pine 2x4s?" If it doesn't have enough oomph to penetrate an interior wall, chances are real good that it won't have enough oomph to physically incapacitate a human being either.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:23:07 PM EDT
Bartholomew_Roberts, Your kidding right?
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:44:32 PM EDT
Why would he be kidding? Also I have to say that I would not choose 75 or 77 grain ammo for indoor use. If I was in the military then yes, but for civilian purposes it penetrates even more than M193 through sheetrock walls due to its greater mass. If you are concerned with over penetrating walls I would shy away. If you WANT it to punch through walls then it would be my first choice too.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:55:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2003 7:10:40 PM EDT by spork]
Originally Posted By 62nd_Assassin: real world, first-hand experience, demonstrating why i will no longer keep a loaded 9mm in the house: round was negligently discharged at an angle about 80 degrees at a distance of 15 feet. went through sheetrock wall, out other side, into shower stall, through sheetrock wall, out other side, through adjoining apartment's shower stall, travelled 6 feet, hit sheetrock wall, ricocheted at 45 degree angle, through sheetrock wall, bounced off of flimsy interior door (handle of which happened to be in residents hand at the time, scaring the bejeezus out of him, nuff said!). ammo was 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 gr out of glock 19. i realize this has nothing to do with .223 use indoors, HOWEVER, i think it is a good demonstration of why I, and possibly others, would rather risk .223 than use a 9mm indoors (first choice is still a shotgun, chambered with 7.5 birdshot followed by some buck...). by the way, bullet was recovered...absolutely no expansion whatsoever. hollowpoint was plugged with drywall, and other than that it was so unexpanded i probably could have reloaded it into a fresh case!
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A 9mm Glock using 124 grain Gold Dots! That hits really close to home [:o]. Now I really know I need a long gun.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:26:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR_Rifle: Not long ago, someone on this board had put up an experiment test with the 5.56. Here are the pics: [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12345[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12346[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12347[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12348[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12349[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12350[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12351[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12352[/url]
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What kind of bullet is that?
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:37:24 PM EDT
An exit wound is not really a good thing in terms of stopping a human threat target. You want a round that has the highest energy on impact with the human body and would come very close to, but not exit the target. If the round exits the target, that means that energy was still available and wasted outside the target and not used for total knockdown. Exit wounds are only good in the real world for use as blood trails to follow to track down a suspect. Death by loss of blood is too slow to be counted on to protect your family in an emergency. Does this ideal round exist? As per Murphy's law, never when you need it. I still stand by my statement. A shotgun, using a smaller size shot, is the best in terms of home defense in a situation where your family may be in the next room and over penetration could pose a problem. Does this answer Mr. Spork's question? Not really, but it's my recommendation as the best in an imperfect world. In other words, it's my lie and I will tell it any way I want. Mitch PS: Sorry Austrian, I took your response as too much of an agressive retort to my post then a response to spork. My mistake this time, I'm sorry.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 5:08:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MitchG: An exit wound is not really a good thing in terms of stopping a human threat target. You want a round that has the highest energy on impact with the human body and would come very close to, but not exit the target. If the round exits the target, that means that energy was still available and wasted outside the target and not used for total knockdown. Exit wounds are only good in the real world for use as blood trails to follow to track down a suspect. Death by loss of blood is too slow to be counted on to protect your family in an emergency.
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Actually I have to disagree with you here too. I hate to do it because I beat you up before. In fact, blood loss is the ONLY reliable debilitating factor you should count on for immediate or near immediate incapacitation of a hostile subject. "Knock down" or "knockdown power" is a myth of course. The sole other means is direct disruption of the CNS. That is very hard to do unless you are adept at scoring headshots nearly every time or striking the spinal cord. I seem to remember a very good treatment of this in the Ammo FAQ. I am biased though, since a relation of mine wrote that part. Ideally, ideally you want a round that disrupts as much tissue and as many vascular elements as possible and also exits, but just barely.
I still stand by my statement. A shotgun, using a smaller size shot, is the best in terms of home defense in a situation where your family may be in the next room and over penetration could pose a problem.
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I am not a large supporter of shotgun use because I think it underpenetrates with any load less significant than 00 or 000 buck. If you have thin walls and 6 kids in different rooms, however, you probably do not want to be using 77 grain OTM/FMJ rounds.
Does this answer Mr. Spork's question? Not really, but it's my recommendation as the best in an imperfect world. In other words, it's my lie and I will tell it any way I want.
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I don't know the specifics of shotgun penetration below 000 buck, having never considered those anywhere close to worth examining, so it is hard for me to weigh in on it. I will say that even FMJ rounds are better than handgun rounds if you are worried about overpenetration.
Mitch PS: Sorry Austrian, I took your response as too much of an agressive retort to my post then a response to spork. My mistake this time, I'm sorry.
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I often come off worse online than in person. I did not mean any offense.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 5:21:13 PM EDT
I know this gets off the subject of 223 FMJ penetration...but what about magsafe or glaser safety slugs? These would allow the use of your current rifle or handgun and still limit penetration. Just my .02...
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 5:55:20 PM EDT
My 2 cents worth. My theory - Worth what you pay for it - is the "Cone of Fragments" Bullet design and performance have a lot to do with it. As noted the 223 fmj will penetrate steel, walls, etc. Some pistol rounds will also, some won't. As the pictures demonstrate, even if you have a totally fragmented bullet, the remaining fragments, sheetrock sand, wood splinters, anything else going along for the ride "the Cone of fragments" is liable to make a nasty wound in somebody on the other side. Now if you had put a leather jacket or a full wallet in front of the baloney, would anything lethal make it through to the jug? or even through a few slices. The bullet does not need to stay together to create a potentially lethal mass of mini projectiles coming out of the wall. Will it? Looks like it. Anything that doesn't totally shed it's kinetic energy in the wall is liable to create a hazard on the other side. Will a perp on the frontside of the wall add enough to prevent passage. Most likely. I happen to use an 870 or a 9mm with hydrashok. The 9 replaces a 45 with H&G lead semi-wadcutters. I have an older 45 that needs to be throated to feed the lead swc reliably, then it goes back to the night stand. The 870 is in case I need to get real serious outside real quick. I have light low noise low recoil, field, buck and slug immediately available. The tube has 2 buck and then 2 slug in it already with my choice to go on top and in the chamber. The walls in my house (late 50s) have two layers of a very hard pre-cursor to sheetrock on each side. I highly doubt that a 223 fmj would make it through. The bullet would fragment in the first double layer and the cone of fragments would either hit a 2x4 and then the next two layers or airgap and two layers. Pretty much stopping the cone of fragments. A 9mm or 45 fmj might make it through as it would retain most of it's mass. Any of the shotshells other than the low noise low recoil 8s would probably create a cone of fragments. A modern wall of one sheet of sheetrock on each side is very much liable to create a cone of fragments. Will it be lethal? Antyhing over a 22 that maintains bullet mass and develops a cone will be dangerous. So in my house I got really really good walls, but if I grab out of the nightstand and cover behind the bed and aim at the br door, whats in my line of fire. 2 hollowcore doors and the boys room, and assuming they stay down a window. hmmm ANYTHING will penetrate that. I go from essentially bulletproof to nothing in about a 20 degree swing. So it comes down to yer gonna have to dance with the girl whut brung yah. Nothing is optimum for all conditions. Military - you have a low need to worry about overpenetration. Police - A real high need to worry about over penetration. Home defender - you should know what you have to work with and pick what works for your circumstance. Remember the cone coming out
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 6:09:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2003 6:12:58 PM EDT by MitchG]
That's ok Austrian, I consider your insight and conclusions just as flawed as you consider mine. We will have to just agree to disagree. In the mean time we will have to defend our homes in the manner we consider best and hope that we never have to prove our theories in real life. Best wishes. Mitch PS: I do like the prefragmented ammunition like Glasers in pistols (providing it will cycle the action reliably) but I'm sure we disagree here too.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 6:25:10 PM EDT
Shotgun all the way. 000 buck, duplex turkey load, lather, rinse repeat. My AR, as much as I love it, will not be used in a home defense scenario.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 7:24:53 PM EDT
Glaser - Magsafe, Ugm I though you were trying to kill the tgt... Shotgun ammo especially at close range - shot will be very tight - and punch through intervening medium quite easily
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 9:34:24 PM EDT
Along with maybe a half-dozen other research facitlities, there is a fairly good chance that we have recorded the terminal performance of more bullets that have been fired through walls than just about anyone one else in the world. Austrian’s comments are ABSOLUTELY correct, as are KevinB’s—ignore them at your peril. In general, 5.56 mm / .223 bullets tend to have the least penetration and the most reduced potential to cause damage after perforating a typical interior wall than any other cartridge commonly in service. This is not new or earth shattering information—it has been published in a variety of places over the last several years. The best penetrating 5.56 mm /.223 non-AP bullets we have seen are the 55 and 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw JSP’s; because of their non-fragmenting design, they punch through walls like the handgun bullets do. The bonded JSP’s exhibit much better intermediate barrier penetration than the heavy 75/77 gr OTM bullets and are even better than the 100 gr bullets. The 55 gr FMJ’s are quite variable—some fragment in the walls and exhibit reduced penetration, some do not. Be aware that firing a unsuppressed 5.56 mm /.223 indoors without hearing protection is highly noxious to both yourself and anyone you care about who might be nearby. FWIW, at the close ranges frequently encountered in typical homes and apartments, say 5 yards and under, birdshot from a 12 ga. may not reduce penetration through interior walls as much as might be expected, as it is common for the birdshot to stay together in the shotcup/wad and strike in mass. We have also seen this occur with various “dust” filled breaching rounds.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 9:59:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLSTC: I know this gets off the subject of 223 FMJ penetration...but what about magsafe or glaser safety slugs? These would allow the use of your current rifle or handgun and still limit penetration. Just my .02...
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These rounds don't incapacitate aggressors with any reliability. Not enough penetration.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 4:21:39 AM EDT
I have over 5 ARs, some more other 5.56 rifles, and 7.62s. None is my home defense rifle...None. For home defense, I have a Benelli M1 with a mounted Surefire, a 9mm loaded with Hydra Shock and a .357 for backup. Still then, I have a full knowledge of who's who and where's where in my home at any given time. The later can sure help you mount a successful home defense.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:02:06 AM EDT
I though Hydra Shocks tended to clog through heavy clothing. Is that not the case? Would they not also clog with wall material and act like a FMJ and penetrate more than a 5.56?
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