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Posted: 12/5/2002 8:39:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2002 8:43:08 AM EDT by Jus228]
Having a conversation with someone about that.. he seems to think they were using M193, and says it was performing badly.. Doesn't sound right.. close range with an M4 there's enough velocity with M193 to fragment.. is he just full of $hit?
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 8:56:44 AM EDT
Yes, they were using the M885 in the SAW and in the M4. If you read the book Blakhawk Down there are a few instances in there they talked about the M855 rounds not fragmenting at that close range and just making small clean wounds in the Somalies bodies which would require the operator to shoot a bad guy four or five times before he would be injured bad enough to quit, or for him to be killed.
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 11:21:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2002 11:23:17 AM EDT by Scott_Jimenez]
read this: [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/bhdweaponreferences.msnw[/url] and this: [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/problemswith556.msnw[/url]
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 12:19:18 AM EDT
You gotta remember them boys (and girls) were [b]SKINNY[/b]. Like super-model on crack with anorexia skinny. Their torso thickness (or lack thereof) combined with the reduced fragmentation range of M855 out of the short barrels, made for some hard to kill Skinnies..... Scott [url]http://www.banknotes.com/IEN203.JPG[/url]
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 9:32:17 AM EDT
I'd advise you to read the two articles at the links Scott provided. M855 was used in Somalia (that was specifically mentioned in the book). The guys with SAWs and M16A2s had no problems - there were several lines which showed how WELL it was working. In the book there are only 2 passages where M855 is frowned upon. Both of these instances the comments were made by the same person (who complained about almost everything). First instance he was shooting his carbine with M4 at a target two blocks away - well outside the 100y 'fragmentation envelope' of carbines. The second time I can't see why he was complaining as the target was hit simultaneously by several people and went down. Also not the PJ with the group shot someone with his carbine/M855 combo who was charging him and noted it dropped the attacker in his tracks. All of these are documented in that first link... So yeah your friend if full of $H!T.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 2:28:08 PM EDT
You also need to remember that many of the Somalis were on drugs. I believe it was one called "khat" or some such. Made them feel less or no pain.
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: You gotta remember them boys (and girls) were [b]SKINNY[/b]. Like super-model on crack with anorexia skinny. Their torso thickness (or lack thereof) combined with the reduced fragmentation range of M855 out of the short barrels, made for some hard to kill Skinnies..... Scott [url]http://www.banknotes.com/IEN203.JPG[/url]
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Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:43:11 PM EDT
Thanks fella's for setting me straight on this. Interesting read Scott. Sounds like the M855 actually did quite well.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:21:18 PM EDT
you can thank Forest and Chad Anderson for putting that info together.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 7:42:37 PM EDT
Why thank you, Scott. Glad to be doing my part.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 4:34:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2002 5:28:17 PM EDT by Scott_Jimenez]
ladies and gentlemen, a round of applause for the author of that material. heh. hey Chad. that writeup is gonna see more and more use these days. it's funny how the recollections of events recounted in BHD get so far off the mark. subjective reading, i suppose.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 6:38:52 AM EDT
I am wondering if we need to resurrect the RIF program as so many people refer to the vast number of failures of the 5.56 in Mog and reference BHD. I'm not saying neccasarily that there were not failures, but I am saying that there was not a large number of them related in BHD (only one, actually). There was also not a widespread desire to carry the M14 as is often claimed. From the AARs and lessons learned docs that I have seen from that battle/deployment this has not seemed to be a problem. If there is contradictory info, I would like to see it. This of course would preclude the use of somebody's brother's cousin who was an Army SEAL in the special underwater ninja death commando unit.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 7:03:35 AM EDT
Man, those 2 articles ar REALLY good reading!!
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 9:56:22 AM EDT
If you think those are good go look at the Tac Forums and find the posts fron Pat Rogers and Doc GKR.
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 12:43:23 AM EDT
Really good reading and articles! For me, it begs the question, what configuration ie, burst or full, I would want to be packing? What is your guys opinion?
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 2:51:46 AM EDT
KY, The Colt burst units create a terrible trigger pull in semi - AAR all weapons are being transformed into S,SA,FA dropping the 3rdb. IME - Stay, Nay run, away from the 3rdB units
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 2:52:23 AM EDT
Definately some interesting reading. I hope everyone read the link from that second page Scott posted! A guy soaked up an M79 round, 4 rounds of 45 ACP and then 3 mags worth of 5.56mm before going down! How often will that happen? LOL. Just goes to show there is no guarantee's folks. But I feel 5.56mm will get the job done just as well as any other combat round. But none of them are or ever will be 100% everytime stoppers.
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 3:26:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CANADIAN_TACTICAL: KY, The Colt burst units create a terrible trigger pull in semi - AAR all weapons are being transformed into S,SA,FA dropping the 3rdb. IME - Stay, Nay run, away from the 3rdB units
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Although I never agreed with the logic behind the 3rd burst, I never noticed any difference between the triggers in an A1 or an A2. Of course I was not as experienced with firearms back then, maybe I just didn't know any better.
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 4:47:31 AM EDT
Canadian Tactical, Thanks for the input. I'm not familiar yet with all the acronyms flying around. What does "AAR" stand for? Thanks again!
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 6:02:30 AM EDT
AAR = after action report 3rb M16A2's have different (read: crappy) trigger pulls in semi-auto as the different notches in the ratchet are engaged on the shots (in semi). also IIRC, if the full burst was not completed on the last firing, whatever is left will be your next burst (2, or 1 shot/s). the logic behind selecting 3rb was accounting logic, not combat effectiveness. wasting ammunition is a training issue for the most part.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 1:05:09 AM EDT
Thanks Scott. I understand the wasting ammo or economics, but I do not agree that 3RB is not more combat effective over SA. Having said this, my choice would be S,SA,FA. Anyways, are you saying that if selector is on 3RB, you do not always cook off three rounds with each trigger pull, assuming a full mag? Sorry for all the rookie questions but I did not know what an AR15 was several months ago. I recently purchased an AR15 for my son who will be entering the Army as officier (infantry) in 2.5 years. He has been shooting either an M16 or M4 with 3RB and has not mentioned any problems to me. Maybe he does not know any better due to lack of experience.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 4:22:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2002 4:25:27 AM EDT by Scott_Jimenez]
3rb is not as combat effective as a well trained operator using _FA_ (for break contact, room clearing, etc.). semi-auto being the standard firing mode for US combat personnel, it does have some importance. the minor difference in semi-auto trigger pulls in a 3rb rifle will not really impact the average combat use, or those who are not familiar with the system (or those who are not familiar with good match AR15 triggers). IIRC, USMC shooting teams had taken to cycling the charging handle after each semi-auto shot to return the 3rb ratchet to the first notch and get a more consistent trigger pull. if the trigger is released on a 3rb rifle before the full burst is completed, the rifle will not fire (as it should be, eh?). the ratchet will only have 2 or 1 notch/s left before the hammer is stopped from falling on the next 'burst.' if you need more info, check with the guys over in the M16 Full Auto forum. i'll refrain from more posting, as this is getting off topic for this forum (Ammunition).
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 6:05:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KY-AR15: Anyways, are you saying that if selector is on 3RB, you do not always cook off three rounds with each trigger pull, assuming a full mag?
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Yes, that is correct. If you release the trigger prior to all three rounds going downrange, the next time you press the trigger, you will get the remaining one or two rounds left from the previous cycle.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 3:00:33 PM EDT
Scott/RedLeg, Ok, I understand now. I guess maybe it did not come up specifically when I was asking my son questions after I found out he was shooting FA's. Yep, definitely off topic. Last post. Thanks again! Chris
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