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Posted: 12/1/2002 3:27:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2002 3:39:00 PM EDT by Balzac72]
I took the opportunity at yesterday's Long Island Shoot in Calverton to test out the Swiss GP90 that Ammoman.com is currently selling. The conditions were overcast with gusts of wind and the temperature around 48-52 degrees. All shots were taken with the front of the gun rested. Some groups were the result of a read rest as well, but I can't remember which ones.

The guns used were:

A Colt Hbar Elite with a 24" Stainless barrel and Leupold 3.5-10x40 Illuminated M3 optics.


And a DPMS 16" Stainless fluted upper with Leupold 4.5-14x50AO optics.


The targets below were witnessed by Hoplite, Wave and ChrisLE. All were fired at 100 yards and luckily, no morons shot at my targets while I was there! Captions above the target describe the gun used and will give the approximate size of the group, using a center to center measuring. The first two targets were the best from the day, but the "worst" were all under 1" while I was TRYING. Others were rapid fire, but I posted the pics anyway.

5 shots = .4" - Colt Elite



3 shots = .25" - DPMS



5 shots = .87" - DPMS



5 shots = .77" - DPMS



This train wreck looking group was actually 3 or 4 groups. The bottom left shots were taken (.92" WITH the adjustment shot on the right - .42" without), then scope was adjusted right, a shot taken, then adjusted up. The square was the result of the adjustments and was the "actual" group of 3 shots = .37" - DPMS



An overview of 6 of the targets - as you can see, accuracy was completely repeatable and pretty much all under 1" even with the larget groups. Bottom right bull was a 10 shot group, 3 flyers above it opened it up, but there are 7 shots in that large ragged hole!


I had more targets from the Colt Elite, but lost them somehow. They were pretty similar to the one on top. Overall, the Elite shot better than the DPMS. Both have 1/9" twists and will shoot just about anything accurately.


Edited to add the pic from the post-shoot lunch at Hooters! Notice Wave and I flanking the real hotties on the left!

Link Posted: 12/1/2002 6:46:45 PM EDT
Get your hands off my sister! [:)] Those are some tight groups ...nice shooting.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:29:04 PM EDT
Are those from the 1980's steel jacketed or from the 1990's copper washed steel jacketed? Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 12:25:47 AM EDT
Nice groups I am going to have to get me some of that stuff.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 4:36:27 AM EDT
Any concerns about the steel in these jackets? [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/green18%2FImgpinebarrens00111sept08%2EJPG[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/green18%2FImgpinebarrens00110sept08%2EJPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 5:44:16 AM EDT
These were from the 1990's batch. Yes, I know about the steel in the jacket, but considering how much of it I plan on shooting, its really not a big concern. I've read up on the GP90 and haven't seen any stories about this stuff burning out barrels very quickly or premature throat erosion. These barrels are relatively new also, so I have plenty of life left in them! A case or two of copper washed ammo definately is not any bit of a concern. The ammo appealed to me for a couple of reasons: 1) It fragments 2) Incredibly accurate 3) Heavier weight 4) Relatively cheap compared to SS109 5) Really cool swiss ammo can is included! 6) Tatjana loves this shit and I trust her judgment 7) Damn accurate 8) No failure to feeds 9) Not many other people have it! 10) The bullets just seem to have a "magnetic" attraction for me![:P] 11) REHEHEAAALLY accurate!
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 8:58:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2002 9:53:18 AM EDT by gman552]
Great review! Do the stripper clips work with the USGI stripper clip guides for loading mags? I'm assuming this ammo would need a 1/7 or 1/9 rifling twist rate? Yet another reason to replace my preban Oly Arms 16" carbine upper (1/12) with a Bushmaster M4 16" upper (1/9). [Edit] Here's a British article by a guy who toured the Swiss Ammunition Enterprise factory in Thun (headstamp "T"). The GP90 was nickel-alloy jacketed until 1998, when they switched to a copper-jacketed bullet. [url]http://www.cybershooters.org/swiss_ammunition_enterprise.htm[/url] Thanks, Gabe
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 10:18:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gman552: Great review! Do the stripper clips work with the USGI stripper clip guides for loading mags? I'm assuming this ammo would need a 1/7 or 1/9 rifling twist rate? Yet another reason to replace my preban Oly Arms 16" carbine upper (1/12) with a Bushmaster M4 16" upper (1/9). Thanks, Gabe
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The stripper clips are an absolute bitch! I modified one of my USGI clips with a dremmel to take the Swiss strippers, but the clips have a tendency to dive into the mag and make loading a bitch. If not that, then the last 3 rounds stick in the clip. They're alright for range duty, but that's about it. The barrel twist should definately be 1/7-1/9. I used 1/9 twists in these two barrels, but I believe that going above this weight really neccessitates a faster twist. I think when I get around to replacing any barrel, it'll be with a 1/8, which in my opinion is the best all around barrel. It'll handle the 55's and up, which is all I'm concerned about. I plan on doing this same report for Q13A3 (?) the LCM193, South African, SS109 and atleast 5 types of Black Hills ammo, but probably not for awhile. It gives me an excuse to shoot more! [b]If anyone wants to work with me on with their Chrony to find the deviations and FPS, let me know![/b]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 10:42:22 AM EDT
I'll second the accuracy of this stuff! This 20 round group was fired with the barrel resting on my toolbox at 50 yds as rapidly as I could re accquire sight picture with an EO tech mounted on my Bushmaster M4 gery(14.5" barrel w/A2 combat brake) [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/green18%2FImgpinebarrens00113sept08%2EJPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 11:10:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: The ammo appealed to me for a couple of reasons: 1) [red]It fragments[/red] 2) Incredibly accurate 3) Heavier weight 4) Relatively cheap compared to SS109 5) Really cool swiss ammo can is included! 6) Tatjana loves this shit and I trust her judgment 7) Damn accurate 8) No failure to feeds 9) Not many other people have it! 10) The bullets just seem to have a "magnetic" attraction for me![:P] 11) REHEHEAAALLY accurate!
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Actually this stuff is NOT supposed to fragment, I remember Tatjana stating this because the Swiss are so Politically Correct.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 11:44:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 12:22:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2002 12:25:07 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By QuikSilver:
Originally Posted By Balzac72: The ammo appealed to me for a couple of reasons: 1) [red]It fragments[/red] 2) Incredibly accurate 3) Heavier weight 4) Relatively cheap compared to SS109 5) Really cool swiss ammo can is included! 6) Tatjana loves this shit and I trust her judgment 7) Damn accurate 8) No failure to feeds 9) Not many other people have it! 10) The bullets just seem to have a "magnetic" attraction for me![:P] 11) REHEHEAAALLY accurate!
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Actually this stuff is NOT supposed to fragment, I remember Tatjana stating this because the Swiss are so Politically Correct.
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Don't you guys pay attention to our work!? [;)] [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=139085]GP90 Frag Experiment[/url] BTW...The stripper clips are designed for use with the Sig 55x series of rifles. There is currently no adapter to make them fit USGI mags. If you have no use for the clips, I'd love to have them, as I have a Sig 550 I can use them with.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 12:33:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2002 12:36:20 PM EDT by sniped]
I'm selling sample packs of the same Swiss GP90 591-1050 for [b]13.50 shipped[/b] 50 round box. I have about 16 boxes left and I accept PayPal IM me if interested. edited to add Its the T93 stuff
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 1:54:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: 1) [red]It fragments[/red] Don't you guys pay attention to our work!? [;)] [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=139085]GP90 Frag Experiment[/url]
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I did! [;)] Looks like some others need to pay attention in class!
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 3:15:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72:
Originally Posted By brouhaha: 1) [red]It fragments[/red] Don't you guys pay attention to our work!? [;)] [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=139085]GP90 Frag Experiment[/url]
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I did! [;)] Looks like some others need to pay attention in class!
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Umm....that experiment clearly states the round DOES NOT fragment. The round is good for punching holes in paper, but thats about it. It does NOT fragment!
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 3:49:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuikSilver: Umm....that experiment clearly states the round DOES NOT fragment. The round is good for punching holes in paper, but thats about it. It does NOT fragment!
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Where does it say that? There is a clear picture of it fragmented here: [img]http://www.ar15.com/members/albums/tatjana%2Fdime%2Ejpg[/img] AND HERE: [img]http://www.ar15.com/members/albums/tatjana%2Ffragdepth%2Ejpg[/img] However, if you're trying to say what Tatjana said, that "GP90 isn't designed to fragment..." then yes, you have a point. However, even though it isn't designed this way and there is a copper rear cap, it still DOES fragment, even though it is due to that scientific phenomena known as sideways-flattening-toothpaste-effect.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 6:23:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: These were from the 1990's batch. Yes, I know about the steel in the jacket, but considering how much of it I plan on shooting, its really not a big concern. I've read up on the GP90 and haven't seen any stories about this stuff burning out barrels very quickly or premature throat erosion. These barrels are relatively new also, so I have plenty of life left in them! A case or two of copper washed ammo definately is not any bit of a concern. The ammo appealed to me for a couple of reasons: 1) It fragments
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Careful, not to the point where it's a good self-defense rounds.
2) Incredibly accurate 3) Heavier weight 4) Relatively cheap compared to SS109 5) Really cool swiss ammo can is included! 6) Tatjana loves this shit and I trust her judgment 7) Damn accurate 8) No failure to feeds 9) Not many other people have it! 10) The bullets just seem to have a "magnetic" attraction for me![:P] 11) REHEHEAAALLY accurate!
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Swiss manufacturer, you know.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 9:28:48 PM EDT
The fact that a little bit of the lead is squished out of it doesn't mean it fragments. Look at the pictures you linked to in your last post, almost all of the bullet jacket is there. Its intact. If you had a M193 round there wouldn't be anything left intact. Tatjana just said in the above post that it doesn't fragment enough for self defense purposes....IF you call what it did fragmenting.... To each his own......[:D]
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 5:40:28 AM EDT
Alright, so its no M193, but if I were aiming at someone, bullet placement would take care of the bad guy!
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 12:54:53 PM EDT
Any more reports of bad lots? Some guys were having problems with the stuff made in the 90's.
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 4:17:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: Any more reports of bad lots? Some guys were having problems with the stuff made in the 90's.
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I got a batch with bad primers, but it seems like it was an isolated incident. I can't remember the lot... You may be able to find it in a search though. Cheers, Chris
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 5:00:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 5:56:25 PM EDT
Hey Eric... Any chance of getting a bunch of those cool ammo boxes in? I almost didn't return those bad rounds because of the can! [>]:)] Cheers, Chris P.S. I hope your friend gets well soon. He is in our thoughts.
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 7:59:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72:
Originally Posted By QuikSilver: Umm....that experiment clearly states the round DOES NOT fragment. The round is good for punching holes in paper, but thats about it. It does NOT fragment!
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Where does it say that? There is a clear picture of it fragmented here: [url]http://www.ar15.com/members/albums/tatjana%2Fdime%2Ejpg[/url] AND HERE: [url]http://www.ar15.com/members/albums/tatjana%2Ffragdepth%2Ejpg[/url] However, if you're trying to say what Tatjana said, that "GP90 isn't designed to fragment..." then yes, you have a point. However, even though it isn't designed this way and there is a copper rear cap, it still DOES fragment, even though it is due to that scientific phenomena known as sideways-flattening-toothpaste-effect.
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That's minimal fragmentation considering it was nearly muzzle velocity.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 12:27:23 AM EDT
So, what do these ubercool cans look like? Some "empty" cans might be nice for storing ammo I already got..... Scott [url]http://www.banknotes.com/WAS806T.JPG[/url]
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:17:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: So, what do these ubercool cans look like? Some "empty" cans might be nice for storing ammo I already got..... Scott [url]http://www.banknotes.com/WAS806T.JPG[/url]
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If noone posts a pic by next weds, I'll do it, but as of right now, I'm in NYC, while my stuff is all on Long Island, like usual.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 9:08:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: [url]www.ar15.com/members/albums/Balzac72%2FHooters%2Dsmall%2Ejpg[/url]
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Very nice grouping!!!! [:D]
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