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Posted: 11/12/2002 7:40:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 11:25:11 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
Okay, so in the Oracle I saw some German .308 ammo that seems to fragment quite nicely. Is this ammo available? If so, what is the name it goes by and where can one buy it?

I've seen Hirt ammo mentioned, but do not know if this is THE load that has m193 performance.

Thanks in advance.

BTW, I can't believe Hornady gave in!!!!!
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:51:31 PM EDT
Isn't M193 5.56mm ammo?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:55:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 7:56:27 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
Yes, m193 IS 5.56 ammo, but what I am asking is if there is any .308 ammo that has the same frgmentation properties that m193 spec ammo exhibit.

Anyone?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:05:31 PM EDT
Just use a fragmenting hollow point/ballistic tip bullet. The proble, with 5.56 ammo is that it needs to penetrate FIRST then fragment to give you enough penetration and not just cause a shallow wound. .308 is generally heavy enough to give adequate penetration in a bullet that fragments on impact. This will be superior to the German 7.62mm round. Look for rounds loaded with the AMAX bullet like the Hornady TAP.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:13:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 10:46:02 PM EDT by brouhaha]
UK,

What you are looking for is West German 7.62x51. It's not real easy to find anymore, but it's what you see in that pic of fragmented 7.62.

I have about 900 rounds of the stuff

As for where you can get it, I don't know anymore. Haven't seen it for awhile.

The headstamp says "DAG"

Here's a pic for you:


[edit] Photo server changed, so I had to change pic URL's
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:18:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 8:18:47 PM EDT by urbankaos04]

Originally Posted By DevL:
Just use a fragmenting hollow point/ballistic tip bullet. The proble, with 5.56 ammo is that it needs to penetrate FIRST then fragment to give you enough penetration and not just cause a shallow wound. .308 is generally heavy enough to give adequate penetration in a bullet that fragments on impact. This will be superior to the German 7.62mm round. Look for rounds loaded with the AMAX bullet like the Hornady TAP.



Brou--

So is what DevL is saying correct? I thought the AMAX bullets were not good performers. Or do things change when going to .308?
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:45:44 AM EDT
Let's put it this way.....the best .223 load in existence doesn't even come close to being as good as the 155 gr AMAX in a 308. It is a bad mother! Hehe.

The AMAX rounds in .223 are poor performers because they lack the weight to punch deep. When a 40, 50 or 55 gr bullet dramatically fragments on impact, the fragments have so little weight left that they just can't keep penetrating very far. With the .308, the bullets are heavier and therefore the fragments are heavier. They can maintain the energy needed for better penetration.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 5:58:46 AM EDT
Yes more mass will always = deeper penetration all things being equal. There are some very fast, very light weight .308 ballistic tips that are marginal as far as penetration but in general most .308 HP/ballistic tip rounds have fragments that retain enough mass to penetrate the minimum 12"
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:05:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 9:16:04 AM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Let's put it this way.....the best .223 load in existence doesn't even come close to being as good as the 155 gr AMAX in a 308. It is a bad mother! Hehe.

The AMAX rounds in .223 are poor performers because they lack the weight to punch deep. When a 40, 50 or 55 gr bullet dramatically fragments on impact, the fragments have so little weight left that they just can't keep penetrating very far. With the .308, the bullets are heavier and therefore the fragments are heavier. They can maintain the energy needed for better penetration.



The 155 AMAX is one of the best performing rounds .308 or under in gel period.

OUCH.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:00:04 PM EDT
The West German ammo is designed after the WWII British .303, which was copied by the 188 headstamp Russian 7.62 X 54R and the Russian military 5.45 X 39. The internal design of the round makes it extreemly effective.

The Austrian ammo does not have this same design although it is an excellent round.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:34:09 PM EDT
Hmm, makes me wish I could buy a DS FAL, or something. But maybe an m1a can do?

All things being equal, wouldn't a .308 FAL be superior to an AR15? About the only advantage the AR has over the FAL stuffed with 155gr AMAX's would be the ability to carry more ammo for it. Oh, but wait, the 155 gr. AMAX is probably REALLY expesnive, huh?

Disregard the second paragraph...just some quick thoughts on my part...

Thanks for all the repsonses...

Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:34:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 10:46:33 PM EDT by brouhaha]

Originally Posted By tatjana:
The 155 AMAX is one of the best performing rounds .308 or under in gel period.

OUCH.



Right. This is not something I want to be on the receiving end of:


Link Posted: 11/14/2002 12:52:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 7:31:16 AM EDT
WOW! Hmm...now imginge that 6.5mm cartridge everyone says the military might go to with fragmentation properties like that AND the ability to cary MORE ammo like the 5.56...it'll be the "one-does-it-all" cartridge...enough mass to punch through stuff AND still fragment into a million pieces....
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 10:03:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2002 10:17:20 AM EDT by Big_Bear]
The difference between West German 7.62 NATO and US 7.62 NATO is striking. Martin Fackler described the West German wound profile as "an enlarged M16 profile," that is, it disrupts tissue like 5.56mm, but more. The West German round has a copper plated steel jacket that is 0.6mm thick at the cannelure vs. the US round that has a predominantly copper jacket that is 0.8mm thick at the cannelure. That difference in bullet jackets accounts for the vast difference in performance in tissue.



Incidentally, there was a rumor awhile back that some of the Portuguese 7.62 NATO performs essentially the same as the West German 7.62 NATO, but AFAIK that has not been confirmed. Someone made a connection that they came from the same ammo manufacturing plant. That may or may not be true for certain lots of Portuguese ammo made in certain years but I don't know for sure. FWIW, the Portuguese 7.62 NATO does have a copper washed steel jacket like the West German ammo. I'd like to see brouhaha and tatjana add Portuguese 7.62 NATO to their list of test ammo.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 1:37:34 PM EDT
I am under the impression that if the bullet is at the same speed and made from the same material, it will perform the same. If that is correct, we should be able to assume that the speed is a constant +- minor variation. The only other question is what material is the jacket and are the dimensions the same. I can tell you that Portugese 84-2 will fragment when shot into water jugs and a wet tree stump. I would like to know if it does reliably fragment and at what velocities.

Mortis...
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 6:36:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mortismaker:
I am under the impression that if the bullet is at the same speed and made from the same material, it will perform the same. If that is correct, we should be able to assume that the speed is a constant +- minor variation. The only other question is what material is the jacket and are the dimensions the same. I can tell you that Portugese 84-2 will fragment when shot into water jugs and a wet tree stump. I would like to know if it does reliably fragment and at what velocities.

Mortis...



We might do some tests on 7.62 rounds once we run out of exciting 5.56 rounds. Keep a box for us and we'll probably get to it eventually.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 7:23:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
The difference between West German 7.62 NATO and US 7.62 NATO is striking. Martin Fackler described the West German wound profile as "an enlarged M16 profile," that is, it disrupts tissue like 5.56mm, but more. The West German round has a copper plated steel jacket that is 0.6mm thick at the cannelure vs. the US round that has a predominantly copper jacket that is 0.8mm thick at the cannelure. That difference in bullet jackets accounts for the vast difference in performance in tissue.

www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/images/wund8.jpg

Incidentally, there was a rumor awhile back that some of the Portuguese 7.62 NATO performs essentially the same as the West German 7.62 NATO, but AFAIK that has not been confirmed. Someone made a connection that they came from the same ammo manufacturing plant. That may or may not be true for certain lots of Portuguese ammo made in certain years but I don't know for sure. FWIW, the Portuguese 7.62 NATO does have a copper washed steel jacket like the West German ammo. I'd like to see brouhaha and tatjana add Portuguese 7.62 NATO to their list of test ammo.



Nevertheless, in Vietnam Army and Marine Corps scout/sniper teams achieved about 13,000 kills using that 'bad' USA ammo (Lake City M118 match ball) using less than 2 rounds per kill in actual combat situations....belive me the USA stuff is still NASTY.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 8:33:53 AM EDT
Second reply for this. I have heard that Hirt and Port may fragment as well. I have some of each. If you want, I will send some to you :-)

Lata...
Mortis...
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 12:13:44 PM EDT

Nevertheless, in Vietnam Army and Marine Corps scout/sniper teams achieved about 13,000 kills using that 'bad' USA ammo
Yeah, but I don't think fragmentation is required for effective head shots...
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 2:53:36 PM EDT
Many of the foreign countries use 7.62mm with cut cannulures, the US has crimped. The cut makes the jacket fragment.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 3:20:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigdude: Many of the foreign countries use 7.62mm with cut cannulures, the US has crimped. The cut makes the jacket fragment.
View Quote
Uh... no. Sorry.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 12:08:33 AM EDT
[;D]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 4:37:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 4:40:37 AM EDT by Bigdude]
Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:38:57 AM EDT
It kind of makes sense that if you cut into that steel jacket it's going to make it weaker than if it was crimped (compressed). Yet at the same time 0.6mm thick steel may be stronger than 0.8mm thick copper. Anyway, I'm guessing that the the 155gr. amax is probably comparable.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:06:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigdude: Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way.
View Quote
The West German 7.62NATO was made with a thinner jacket. This jacket was composed of a relatively brittle steel, as opposed to a malleable copper that we use. Yes, it broke at the cannelure where most bullets break. No, it's not because of the cannelure design. It's because of the jacket design. Take a look here...Portuguese on the left, Hirtenberger on the right. Both have a cut cannelure. Neither fragment. Why? Because the jacket is still too thick. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=604[/img]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 9:28:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 9:29:39 AM EDT by tatjana]
Originally Posted By Bigdude: Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way.
View Quote
Fragmentation is a product of far more complex construction issues than just the presence or absence of a cannelure. Cannelures can assist fragmentation in some instances, they can do absolutely nothing in others. In .223 there are rounds that fragment pretty much exactly the same with and without a cannelure. (Heavier match rounds are a good example). Cannelures are added to avoid setback, not generally to induce fragmentation. Jacket thickness and material is FAR more important to fragmentation than the presence of a cannelure. Believe it or not we don't just make this stuff up as we go along.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:03:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 7:03:45 PM EDT by Bigdude]
Originally Posted By tatjana:
Originally Posted By Bigdude: Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way.
View Quote
Fragmentation is a product of far more complex construction issues than just the presence or absence of a cannelure. Cannelures can assist fragmentation in some instances, they can do absolutely nothing in others. In .223 there are rounds that fragment pretty much exactly the same with and without a cannelure. (Heavier match rounds are a good example). Cannelures are added to avoid setback, not generally to induce fragmentation. Jacket thickness and material is FAR more important to fragmentation than the presence of a cannelure. Believe it or not we don't just make this stuff up as we go along.
View Quote
I know what a cannulure is for. I didn't say it was there to cause fragmentation. It's just a side effect. If it's a roll crimp cannulure, it helps the bullet stay intact, if it's a cut cannulure it helps it fragment.
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 7:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2002 7:54:31 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By Bigdude: I know what a cannulure is for. I didn't say it was there to cause fragmentation. It's just a side effect. If it's a roll crimp cannulure, it helps the bullet stay intact, if it's a cut cannulure it helps it fragment.
View Quote
Sooo...are you implying that the cut cannelure on Wolf 55gr helps it fragment (in reality, it doesn't fragment at all)? And are you saying that the roll crimp on LC XM193 helps keep it together (when it fragments quite dramatically)? And how about 75gr TAP? It has NO cannelure, yet it exhibits incredible fragmentation. So which is it? I will say that cannelures in general tend to help with fragmentation, however they are not at all necessary. Fragmentation is a byproduct of bullet construction, and has nothing to do with which type of cannelure is present. 2 bullets on left fragment VERY well (SA M193 and LC XM193). Bullet on right doesn't fragment at all (Wolf 55gr). [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=526[/img]
Link Posted: 11/24/2002 8:06:35 PM EDT
The bottom line here is that bullet fragmentation begins at the bullet base when yaw occurs, not the cannelure. If the jacket thickness and construction is such that it doesn't break apart and begin spitting out pieces of jacket material and lead beginning at the base, the cannelure won't break apart no matter whether it's cut or crimped. Think of the lead core as a banana, and the jacket as the peel. The fragmentation phenomenon is sorta like peeling a banana starting at the base of the bullet. It's a simple analogy but it's the only thing I could think of off the top of my head.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:17:22 AM EDT
If you make a jacket thick enough, a cut cannulure won't make any difference, like the Wolf 5.56mm. Again, I refer you back to the German 7.62mm, look at the picture, where did the bullet fragment? At the cut in the bullet jacket.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:31:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bigdude: Again, I refer you back to the German 7.62mm, look at the picture, where did the bullet fragment? At the cut in the bullet jacket.
View Quote
And again I refer to the photo I posted on page one of the Hirt and Port. Both have cut jackets, neither fragment. Why is it so hard to admit that you're mistaken about this? The cannelure does not make a bullet fragment. Bullet construction does.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 6:10:37 AM EDT
Well, brou and tat said it's bullet construction and the other guy said it's the cannulure, then contradicted himself by saying it's bullet construction. Hey, I admit it when I make a mistake, and the two mentioned above don't need defending and all I know is that little pointy thingy comes out the end of my thunderstick really fast!
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