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Posted: 11/12/2002 7:40:54 PM EDT
Okay, so in the Oracle I saw some German .308 ammo that seems to fragment quite nicely. Is this ammo available? If so, what is the name it goes by and where can one buy it?
I've seen Hirt ammo mentioned, but do not know if this is THE load that has m193 performance. Thanks in advance. BTW, I can't believe Hornady gave in!!!!! |
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Yes, m193 IS 5.56 ammo, but what I am asking is if there is any .308 ammo that has the same frgmentation properties that m193 spec ammo exhibit.
Anyone? |
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Just use a fragmenting hollow point/ballistic tip bullet. The proble, with 5.56 ammo is that it needs to penetrate FIRST then fragment to give you enough penetration and not just cause a shallow wound. .308 is generally heavy enough to give adequate penetration in a bullet that fragments on impact. This will be superior to the German 7.62mm round. Look for rounds loaded with the AMAX bullet like the Hornady TAP.
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Brou-- So is what DevL is saying correct? I thought the AMAX bullets were not good performers. Or do things change when going to .308? |
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Let's put it this way.....the best .223 load in existence doesn't even come close to being as good as the 155 gr AMAX in a 308. It is a bad mother! Hehe.
The AMAX rounds in .223 are poor performers because they lack the weight to punch deep. When a 40, 50 or 55 gr bullet dramatically fragments on impact, the fragments have so little weight left that they just can't keep penetrating very far. With the .308, the bullets are heavier and therefore the fragments are heavier. They can maintain the energy needed for better penetration. |
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Yes more mass will always = deeper penetration all things being equal. There are some very fast, very light weight .308 ballistic tips that are marginal as far as penetration but in general most .308 HP/ballistic tip rounds have fragments that retain enough mass to penetrate the minimum 12"
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The 155 AMAX is one of the best performing rounds .308 or under in gel period. OUCH. |
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The West German ammo is designed after the WWII British .303, which was copied by the 188 headstamp Russian 7.62 X 54R and the Russian military 5.45 X 39. The internal design of the round makes it extreemly effective.
The Austrian ammo does not have this same design although it is an excellent round. |
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Hmm, makes me wish I could buy a DS FAL, or something. But maybe an m1a can do?
All things being equal, wouldn't a .308 FAL be superior to an AR15? About the only advantage the AR has over the FAL stuffed with 155gr AMAX's would be the ability to carry more ammo for it. Oh, but wait, the 155 gr. AMAX is probably REALLY expesnive, huh? Disregard the second paragraph...just some quick thoughts on my part... Thanks for all the repsonses... |
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Do you want that chest cavity minced, mixed, chopped, or pureed?
-Troy |
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WOW! Hmm...now imginge that 6.5mm cartridge everyone says the military might go to with fragmentation properties like that AND the ability to cary MORE ammo like the 5.56...it'll be the "one-does-it-all" cartridge...enough mass to punch through stuff AND still fragment into a million pieces....
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I am under the impression that if the bullet is at the same speed and made from the same material, it will perform the same. If that is correct, we should be able to assume that the speed is a constant +- minor variation. The only other question is what material is the jacket and are the dimensions the same. I can tell you that Portugese 84-2 will fragment when shot into water jugs and a wet tree stump. I would like to know if it does reliably fragment and at what velocities.
Mortis... |
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We might do some tests on 7.62 rounds once we run out of exciting 5.56 rounds. Keep a box for us and we'll probably get to it eventually. |
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Nevertheless, in Vietnam Army and Marine Corps scout/sniper teams achieved about 13,000 kills using that 'bad' USA ammo (Lake City M118 match ball) using less than 2 rounds per kill in actual combat situations....belive me the USA stuff is still NASTY. |
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Second reply for this. I have heard that Hirt and Port may fragment as well. I have some of each. If you want, I will send some to you :-)
Lata... Mortis... |
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Many of the foreign countries use 7.62mm with cut cannulures, the US has crimped. The cut makes the jacket fragment.
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Quoted: Many of the foreign countries use 7.62mm with cut cannulures, the US has crimped. The cut makes the jacket fragment. View Quote Uh... no. Sorry. |
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Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way.
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It kind of makes sense that if you cut into that steel jacket it's going to make it weaker than if it was crimped (compressed). Yet at the same time 0.6mm thick steel may be stronger than 0.8mm thick copper.
Anyway, I'm guessing that the the 155gr. amax is probably comparable. |
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Quoted: Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way. View Quote The West German 7.62NATO was made with a thinner jacket. This jacket was composed of a relatively brittle steel, as opposed to a malleable copper that we use. Yes, it broke at the cannelure where most bullets break. No, it's not because of the cannelure design. It's because of the jacket design. Take a look here...Portuguese on the left, Hirtenberger on the right. Both have a cut cannelure. Neither fragment. Why? Because the jacket is still too thick. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=604[/img] |
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Quoted: Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way. View Quote Fragmentation is a product of far more complex construction issues than just the presence or absence of a cannelure. Cannelures can assist fragmentation in some instances, they can do absolutely nothing in others. In .223 there are rounds that fragment pretty much exactly the same with and without a cannelure. (Heavier match rounds are a good example). Cannelures are added to avoid setback, not generally to induce fragmentation. Jacket thickness and material is FAR more important to fragmentation than the presence of a cannelure. Believe it or not we don't just make this stuff up as we go along. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Uh, yes it does. The jacket is thinner at the cut. It causes the jacket to break in half. look at that picture of the German 7.62mm. Notice the cut cannulure. Now look at the picture of the fragments. Where did it break in half? Huh? That's right, it broke at the cannulure, because it's much thinner at the cut. Other 7.62mm ammo is made the same way. View Quote Fragmentation is a product of far more complex construction issues than just the presence or absence of a cannelure. Cannelures can assist fragmentation in some instances, they can do absolutely nothing in others. In .223 there are rounds that fragment pretty much exactly the same with and without a cannelure. (Heavier match rounds are a good example). Cannelures are added to avoid setback, not generally to induce fragmentation. Jacket thickness and material is FAR more important to fragmentation than the presence of a cannelure. Believe it or not we don't just make this stuff up as we go along. View Quote I know what a cannulure is for. I didn't say it was there to cause fragmentation. It's just a side effect. If it's a roll crimp cannulure, it helps the bullet stay intact, if it's a cut cannulure it helps it fragment. |
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Quoted: I know what a cannulure is for. I didn't say it was there to cause fragmentation. It's just a side effect. If it's a roll crimp cannulure, it helps the bullet stay intact, if it's a cut cannulure it helps it fragment. View Quote Sooo...are you implying that the cut cannelure on Wolf 55gr helps it fragment (in reality, it doesn't fragment at all)? And are you saying that the roll crimp on LC XM193 helps keep it together (when it fragments quite dramatically)? And how about 75gr TAP? It has NO cannelure, yet it exhibits incredible fragmentation. So which is it? I will say that cannelures in general tend to help with fragmentation, however they are not at all necessary. Fragmentation is a byproduct of bullet construction, and has nothing to do with which type of cannelure is present. 2 bullets on left fragment VERY well (SA M193 and LC XM193). Bullet on right doesn't fragment at all (Wolf 55gr). [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=526[/img] |
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The bottom line here is that bullet fragmentation begins at the bullet base when yaw occurs, not the cannelure. If the jacket thickness and construction is such that it doesn't break apart and begin spitting out pieces of jacket material and lead beginning at the base, the cannelure won't break apart no matter whether it's cut or crimped. Think of the lead core as a banana, and the jacket as the peel. The fragmentation phenomenon is sorta like peeling a banana starting at the base of the bullet. It's a simple analogy but it's the only thing I could think of off the top of my head.
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If you make a jacket thick enough, a cut cannulure won't make any difference, like the Wolf 5.56mm. Again, I refer you back to the German 7.62mm, look at the picture, where did the bullet fragment? At the cut in the bullet jacket.
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Quoted: Again, I refer you back to the German 7.62mm, look at the picture, where did the bullet fragment? At the cut in the bullet jacket. View Quote And again I refer to the photo I posted on page one of the Hirt and Port. Both have cut jackets, neither fragment. Why is it so hard to admit that you're mistaken about this? The cannelure does not make a bullet fragment. Bullet construction does. |
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Well, brou and tat said it's bullet construction and the other guy said it's the cannulure, then contradicted himself by saying it's bullet construction. Hey, I admit it when I make a mistake, and the two mentioned above don't need defending and all I know is that little pointy thingy comes out the end of my thunderstick really fast!
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