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Posted: 10/1/2002 11:04:06 AM EDT
Friday, September 27, 2002
8-year-old seriously wounded by gunshot

The Orange County Register

DANA POINT – An 8-year-old girl was seriously wounded by a gunshot tonight, authorities said.

The girl's father reported that he was inspecting a recently purchased shotgun in the family's home on Shell Drive when the gun accidentally discharged about 7:40 p.m., Orange County sheriff's Lt. Dave Wilson said.

The girl's arm was nearly severed above her elbow, Wilson said.

Paramedics took the girl, whose name was not released, to Mission Hospital in Mission Viejo.

The investigation is continuing, Wilson said."

Did some digging into this local incident, a 8-year old little girl was shot at a distance of about 6" (yes inches). The column of shot severed her upper arm. Several pellets damaged her liver, one pellet ruined her right kidney. but she never lost conciosness.

Birdshot was adequate to cripple this samll child, but it did not kill her or even fully incapacitate her. An adult Male would have been even less likely to be incapacitated.

If you are using birdshot in your HD SGN your should reconsider.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:11:38 AM EDT
I would not have any problem defending myself with 12 gauge birdshot. You hit anything dead mass with 400 pellots within 25 feet,its going down. I use it in my home defense shotgun. It'll do the job easily and not go through the wall in most cases. To bad that girl got her life ruined by that idot with the ND.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:13:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAPITALIST:
I would not have any problem defending myself with 12 gauge birdshot. You hit anything dead mass with 400 pellots within 25 feet,its going down.



Not in this incident, and she was only 6" from the muzzle.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:16:30 AM EDT
just need to add the "shot" is a solid mass for several yards because it does not leave the wad. think 1 oz frangible round.

in a word nasty.

Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:19:49 AM EDT
Yes, but where was the barrel pointed when the gun went off? It must have been pointed towards her arm, not center mass. Any shot size will leave the barrel without really making a pattern under 15-20 feet. If it had been #6 instead of birdshot I feel this incident would have turned out the same way
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:20:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2002 11:23:36 AM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By 308wood:
in a word nasty.



But shallow. Nasty doesnt equal effective for the purposes of stopping your attacker.

Capiltalist,
I have been unable to learn the exact shot size yet. It may have been #4 birdshot, it may have been #12 birdshot.
The shotgun was pointed directly at her upper arm and at a slight downward agle, from a distance of 6" away. The victin is an 8-year old girl. Her upper arm is thinner than your wrist, yet the bridshot still had insufficent penetration to incapacitate her.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:26:45 AM EDT
I wouldn't want to step in front of 8 shot, I don't know about you guys.

What gets me is how one could even CONCEIVE handling a gun around kids without triple-checking the magazine/tube/chamber beforehand...

I triple check all my pieces religiously every single time I touch em...and I'm the only one who handles them. Idiots...it only takes one mistake to ruin everything.

Well, that's Darwinism for you.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:29:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By 308wood:
in a word nasty.



But shallow. Nasty doesnt equal effective for the purposes of stopping your attacker.

Capiltalist,
I have been unable to learn the exact shot size yet. It may have been #4 birdshot, it may have been #12 birdshot.
The shotgun was pointed directly at her upper arm and at a slight downward agle, from a distance of 6" away. The victin is an 8-year old girl. Her upper arm is thinner than your wrist, yet the bridshot still had insufficent penetration to incapacitate her.



AR15fan, Birdshot is #7-#9. I have never heard of #12. It would almost have to be microscopic. #4-#6 is used for rabbit,squirell and other 4 legged creatures.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:32:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2002 11:34:27 AM EDT by eshell]
Regular lead birdshot goes down to "BB" size in lead, then #2, #4, #5, #6, #7-1/2, #8, #8-1/2 & #9.

#12 is the old standard, folded crimp .22 shot.
Also referred to as "dust".
Still see it sold in a 25 lb bag once in a while.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:55:26 AM EDT
well from what ive seen it do to a silohete im thinking it would do a fair amount of damage properly aimed.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 11:59:17 AM EDT
I am fond of 00 buck for my home defense shotgun. That way I don't have to worry about shallow wounds. But I do live out in the country and don't have any kids to worry about, so I can get away with using such loads where perhaps others might not be as comfortable.

I think the term "bird shot" is too generic and general. I think that loads should be grouped like this:

#7 1/2, 8 and 9 shot for skeet/trap

#4, 5 and 6 as field loads (rabbit, squirrel, etc)

#2, BB, etc as heavy field loads (i.e. turkey)

And of course the various buckshot loads would be in a group as well.

I think this would be a better way of describing the various shot sizes, as now, some folks consider all shot that isn't buckshot as birdshot. Others only consider the very light loads as birdshot. We need something more specific and less general.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 12:10:42 PM EDT
The size of the shot doesn't really matter when your shooting at very close range. The whole charge acts like one solid projectile. The only way this girl is alive is because she was shot in the arm, if she were shot in the body or head she wouldn't have a chance. A shotgun at close range is one of the deadliest weapons you can own.

Too bad this little girl has such a stupid father.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 12:14:22 PM EDT
The term "Birdshot" when used in my area, means anything other than Slugs or Buckshot.

Everything from BB turkey loads to #12 skeet loads are "Birdshot".

I will try to get the exact shot size. But considering 1) This was a just purchased new shotgun & 2) Dove season is open, #8 is a safe bet.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 12:22:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bookertbab:
The only way this girl is alive is because she was shot in the arm, if she were shot in the body or head she wouldn't have a chance. .



She was shot in the body, the pellets just had to go through her very thin arm first. She was standing in profile to the gun. Shot column went through her upper arm, severing it, entered her upper torso below the right armpit and then travelled at a slight downward angle into her body cavity. No pellets made it farther than her liver.

If you think you will always have an unobstructed full frontal target in a home defemse shooting, you are mistaken. You are very likely to be shooting through limbs. Picture someone pointing a gun at you in either a weaver or isocelies stance. Can you shoot their heart without shooting through hands, limbs, guns, wrist-watches, ect first?
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 1:54:11 PM EDT
this happened about 25 years ago but i was there to witness it.
my brother and three of his friends got back from quail hunting,as they were unloading an ad happened.
12 guage,2 3/4,#8 shot from a remmy auto went off,it hit one of the young men square in the abdomen at 10 feet.
he went down instantly,fell backwards about 3 feet as i remember.
lots of blood everywhere,he was thankfully unconscious.
he is alive today,but does not remember any of it.
we tearfully call him "roadmap" cause thats what hit extended gut looks like after all the surgery.
josam
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 8:33:18 PM EDT
At more than conversational ranges I would not consider anything less than buckshot or slugs an effective defense load. The pellets do not have enough mass for effective penetration. Nasty wound sure, but bad guy permanently out of the fight, probably not.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 8:41:24 PM EDT
OO or 4 buck auta do it.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 11:49:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 4:04:27 PM EDT
I work in a city a province away from my farmhouse, so I have to live in an apartment. I considered over penetration and the distance I or my wife would have to engage a hostile target. Absolute MAXIMUM distance would be 30ft. that's end to end, and the likelyness of the target presenting itself at that angle for any length of time is highly unlikely. I decided for my defense load on No.4 buck (.24cal). I figure that was a good compromise between bird and large buck. They are less likely to overpenetrate bodies or walls than .33 0r .36cal balls, and if you get hit in the upper chest or neck with one, dead or not I figure it'll slow you down a tad, at least enough to shuck another shell in the pipe. Just my .02
____________________________________________
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 4:39:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2002 4:41:52 PM EDT by redray]
"The girl's father reported that he was inspecting a recently purchased shotgun in the family's home on Shell Drive when the gun accidentally discharged about 7:40 p.m., Orange County sheriff's Lt. Dave Wilson said."

no one noticed this huh? WTF was the idiot doing inspecting a recently purchased LOADED shotgun ? too bad he didnt have it pointed at himself.

im sure theyll blame the gun again.....
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 8:10:32 PM EDT
Although *birdshot* really lacks penetration.. If "IF" you had the opportunity for a head shot, it'd be devistating... Yes, the head is a very fast moving mobile target, but what do you think shotguns are for?

I keep my 590 loaded with 00 buckshot.. But I also keep a couple 1 1/8oz. #6's in the speedfeed as well, if one of those occasions were to present itself.

1 7/8oz. of #4 (3" turkey loads) would work even better here, but damn! are they expensive.
Link Posted: 10/3/2002 6:28:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2002 6:30:52 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Actually, I was just reading "Hunters and Shooters" this morning. It is a collection of stories from various Vietnam-era SEALs. In the section on Mike Boynton (somebody who used the shotgun in combat), he states that he favored the Ithaca 37 with duckbill and #4 shot for close-in fights.

He preferred #4 because it put more lead in the air and he liked the duckbill because the oval shot pattern let you have a nice margin of error in leading moving targets.

I'm not a big fan of anecdotal evidence normally; but its tough to discount the opinion of someone who carried and used a shotgun in combat.

By the way, I recommend people pattern their shotguns before they assume oft-repeated Internet wisdom as fact. Perhaps most 12ga loads don't open up at all at ranges under 21 feet; but my 18" open-choked Remington 870 has a pattern a little over 8" with #6 shot (Winchester Field&Game) at 7yds.

Maybe I'm in the 0.1% with those statistics; but had I assumed that my shotgun would fire that like a big frangible slug at household distances, I might have been setting myself up for a nasty surprise.
Link Posted: 10/3/2002 11:07:19 AM EDT

but my 18" open-choked Remington 870 has a pattern a little over 8" with #6 shot (Winchester Field&Game) at 7yds.



My roommate in college was in the criminal justice program. In their crime scene investigation class the rule of thumb they were given for shotgun pattern spread was 1 inch of spread for every yard of distance.

Looks like your gun is in the ballpark for the rule of thumb, Bartholomew. I'd never heard the one about the shot not spreading until a certain distance from the muzzle.

Kent
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 4:50:08 PM EDT
It is not adequate. if you add a heavy overcoat especially leather you have very little effect. saw some old studies on shootings and the effects of clothes on bullet performance including JHP pistol ammo. use #4 buck keep slugs in the speedfeed. ymmv
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 10:44:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2002 10:45:15 AM EDT by m60308nato]

The girl's father reported that he was inspecting a recently purchased shotgun


I want to know how he bought the shotgun, brought it home, and was inspecting it without even checking if the gun was loaded, cycling the action, or looking down the barrel.

accidently discharged my arse, his finger pulled the trigger. It's all his fault, he knows it, throw him in jail.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 10:48:16 AM EDT
always treat a gun as if it were loaded, never point a gun at anyone.
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 11:31:25 AM EDT
A rule of thumb for defensive shotgun patterning is 1" of spread per yard of targer range. (i.e. at 7 yards approx. 7" pattern)
Link Posted: 10/6/2002 11:45:10 AM EDT
Birdshot is absolutely adequate for home defense.......


IF YOUR HOME IS BEING INVADED BY BIRDS!!!

I stick to OO- any shot I make in my house is less than 20 feet anyway. Nice tight group, and will penetrate properly.
Link Posted: 10/7/2002 2:29:32 AM EDT
You hit anything dead mass with 400 pellots within 25 feet,its going down. I use it in my home defense shotgun.
END

You can't assume this. In fact there was a shooting in my state (Alaska) some years ago when a bad guy took a slug and kept shooting back. He had to be shot in the head with a 40 caliber pistol to end the fight. Bird shot does not offer adiquate penetration I would not trust it. If you want to use a shotgun use 00 buck or 000 buck.
PAT
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