Quoted: Quoted: And this has what to do with the topic of this thread? Since Tatjana opened the can of worms of how the shooting went done, including incorrect info like "U.S. Special Forces, including both the NSW group and Delta respond, dismount their tailing vehicle and return fire at three aggressors.", so I posted a correction. They returned fire at ONE agressor, killing him and two bystanders in the process. It is unknown at this time if the bystanders were killed by stray rounds, over penetrating rounds, or if they were deliberately killed in a case of mistaken identity.

It's my understanding that at least two were killed with very nice controlled pairs.  They were almost certainly directly engaged.  (Notice there were no wounded except for one American).

Quoted: Quoted: AR15fan - are you a failed SF candidate? No. Thank you for asking. Are you a homosexual? Or is that only the people who train you? SUMMARY: The Canadian military is using a gay fitness show to train the troops. story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/po/20020906/co_po/canada__military_buys_gay_tv_shows

Ok, both of you are just out of line.

Why is it that whenever a decent post with decent debate gets started everyone has to start resorting to personal attacks of this nature and get otherwise important threads locked.

Cool it.  Now.  Feel free to tell someone that they have taken an erronious position.  Feel free to point out that they do this often (if they do) please don't make taunting remarks about special forces washouts or sexual preference.  How about it... huh?

As for details of the incident:

I've seen a couple of videos of it now and gotten some more pictures from BBC.


Shots have been fired (from a semi-automatic handgun it appears) and three individuals are grappling, at least one is clearly an assailant)Behind Karzar's automobile U.S. Special Forces (join the special forces, ride in a benz!) begin dismounting (opening driver's side door highlighted).

Given the situation it's pretty easy to see why all three KIAs would have gotten nice headshots- even if bystanders.  Pretty hard to pick and choose there.  

I've also been told that at least the attacker was dead before he was "wrestled to the ground."  This account conflicts with media accounts which suggest all three were shot dead on the ground.  This always struck me as odd because it almost suggests an execution style incident.  Why do that unless you were trying to cover up?  I've also been told that the Americans were the first to get off shots (borne out by the audio and the fact that the Afghan guard with the rifle- and the closest armed individual to the incident- stands around looking mostly dazed for almost the duration of the attack).


This Afghan guard apparently still had a full mag at days end.  Note that at least one of the individuals on the ground is pretty clearly dead already (face visible) either that or he's in deep thought.

It's hard to reconcile this "shot after wrestled to the ground" with this take on the facts, the picture above and this picture:


Head and neck wound from the left side- the side the American's were responding from (see below).


Apparently after the Americans responded there was a blaze of gunfire all over the place (borne out by audio of the incident).  It's not clear if our friendly was hit then but it was suggested to me that it was a handgun wound from the assailant fired during the wrestling.  That's from a military source- so salt to taste and recognize that some CYA might be going on.


Conspiracy theorists: Why the HELL aren't these windows bullet proof?

[Edited to fix link]

This lot here:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=142680&page=2#bottom

Insist that the Americans were civilan contractors and not active military SF.

I think that the date and times of the postings are AFTER Reuters began reporting about the possibility of innocent people having been shot.

disinformation?

Quoted: This lot here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=142680&page=2#bottom Insist that the Americans were civilan contractors and not active military SF. I think that the date and times of the postings are AFTER Reuters began reporting about the possibility of innocent people having been shot. disinformation?

Interesting.  Probably jibes with what I heard right after the incident (I dunno what time the Reuters reports came out) about individuals from the Special Activities Division being present.

Quoted: Notice also, the wounded guy didn't have a vest at all.  He also has a different AR setup (no optics- just a cutback handle OR a specialized flatop rear sight) than the vest pair.

That is that same upper receiver as the other operator pictured, however it does not have an Aimpoint or vertical foregrip.  Also, the stock between the two weapons is the same and is the one developed by Crane NSWC.

An upper receiver of the configuration pictured has been contracted for by Crane and assigned an NSN number.  You will be able to buy it soon from a vendor who hangs around this site and specializes in top-shelf weapons accessories.

That Crane contracted for the upper doesn't necessarily imply NSW, as Crane also built the SPR for the Army.  However, if you search yahoo's photo archives and look at Karzai's security details over time you will notice that there are some differences week to week in the weapons and equipment of the operators guarding him.  These oberservations, coupled with information from an Executive Protection specialist who was working an assignment in A-Stan regarding the respective equipment of the "Tier One Assets" (plural) that were guarding Karzai, seem to indicate that at the time this attack occured, the "Assets" who were on point were NSW.  That is not to say that members of SAD, DSS, CAG, and other alphabet soup agencies/units weren't in the vicinity.

If I had to bet, I would bet NSW.  Who knows, I might lose though.

JAW

The rubber band on the stock is to hold a compression bandage.

Quoted: Tatjana: As always you are THE goddess.

I still think we should form an underground Cult to worship her!

Quoted: Quoted: Tatjana: As always you are THE goddess.   I still think we shoulf form an underground Cult to worship her!

We didn't?

As interesting as it is to read and gather information on these kind of events i have to ask, what good does this talk on SEVERAL different sites do to the men on the sharp end.

Going into specifics as naming and attaching certain equipment to certain units and so on doesn´t do any good.

This is jut my opinion on the matter.

My take on the situation:

The Delta and NSW boys are there to protect Karzai. I am sure that to the SF Men, the end justifies the means.The latest news report indicate that there was one aggressor. The other casualties were bystanders. The SF men would, I am sure, rather shoot a bystander than fail in their mission to protect the Afgan President. It is the ability to act without emotion or compassion that makes these men deadly.

this NSW fixation really needs to stop. just because they are carrying sigs means nothing. hell an airforce MP can get a sig if he/she complains the beretta is too big.inconclusive and certainly not a trade mark. i saw lots of sigs in the ANGLICO and we werent NSW. they are Army and SAD. you cant identify a group by their weapons. there are very few exclusive weapons in the US inventory and SIGS and crane uppers are not among them. for all we know a unit armorer could have cut down the barrel and pig-tailed the gas tube. ive seen it in the Corps, not from crane and not NSW. before i spoke with someone whose been there i thought Army by the photog vests and the nature of the mission. my suspicions have been confirmed.

DvlDog,

I for one have no fixation on NSW, I am simply trying to piece together the available data in order to draw a logical conclusion.

Item:  A standard issue handgun of NSW is the SIG P226.
Item:  A reportedly standard issue holster of NSW is the Kramer Vertical Scabbard.
Item:  Reportedly, only NSW has purchased the Glock fragmentation grenade.
Item:  Cut carrying handle back-up iron sights have long been popular with NSW.
Item:  According to first hand accounts "Tier One Assets" in A-Stan assigned to protect Karzai and that are not CAG reportedly have M4 uppers with both cut carrying handle irons and 10 or 10.5 inch barrels.
Item:  All of the M4's pictured have the Crane developed SOCOM stock (may or may not indicate NSW).
Item:  All of the M4's pictured appear to have an upper that has been confirmed by a first hand source as being likely the one made for Crane (specs include vendor cut carrying handle and Diemaco heavy barrel).

I have absolutely no knowledge, first hand, or otherwise that the gentlemen pictured are NSW, but the loosely connected dots seem to point in that general direction.

Please bear in mind that this response is not intended to be hostile or a "flame" but simply a recitation of the thought process, flimsy as it may be, that led to my conclusion that the operators pictured are likely NSW.

If you have other data that would help piece together the puzzle and you would like to share it, please do.  

Best regards,

JAW

Edited to add:  Again, not a flame, but SIGs aren't a trademark and a photographer's vest is?

I agree with Tuukka. Posting and re-posting pictures of these individuals does not seem wise. Speculating who these individuals may be seems equally unwise. Whoever they are, I'm sure individual and unit anonymity are most desired. I am willing to bet that if any of us were in the position that these gentlemen are, we would desire the same.

Regards,

JFPatch

Quoted: I agree with Tuukka. Posting and re-posting pictures of these individuals does not seem wise. Speculating who these individuals may be seems equally unwise. Whoever they are, I'm sure individual and unit anonymity are most desired. I am willing to bet that if any of us were in the position that these gentlemen are, we would desire the same. Regards, JFPatch

There is no logic in that. These are WIRE SERVICE photos. They have been in every newspaper around the world, most are actually screen caps from video-which MSNBC, CNN, FOX, AlJazeera, BBC, ITN, and Sky already have run many times.

They were present with the President of Afghanistan. Regardless of wether they were part of the bodyguard or not, there is no way they could of failed to know that reporters would be everywhere filming. Had nothing happened they still would have been photographed. Yet they took no pains to conceal their faces or stop the filming.

Does that logicly sound like somone who is concerned about keeping things concealed?

Quoted: Quoted: I agree with Tuukka. Posting and re-posting pictures of these individuals does not seem wise. Speculating who these individuals may be seems equally unwise. Whoever they are, I'm sure individual and unit anonymity are most desired. I am willing to bet that if any of us were in the position that these gentlemen are, we would desire the same. Regards, JFPatch There is no logic in that. These are WIRE SERVICE photos. They have been in every newspaper around the world, most are actually screen caps from video-which MSNBC, CNN, FOX, AlJazeera, BBC, ITN, and Sky already have run many times. They were present with the President of Afghanistan. Regardless of wether they were part of the bodyguard or not, there is no way they could of failed to know that reporters would be everywhere filming. Had nothing happened they still would have been photographed. Yet they took no pains to conceal their faces or stop the filming. Does that logicly sound like somone who is concerned about keeping things concealed?

The photography goes with the job and perhaps they had more bigger issues on their mind at the time, like DOING THEIR JOB, than worrying about possible photos.

The photos are wire photos, but THERE ISNT A SINGLE NEWS PHOTO WHICH WOULD TELL THE EXACT UNIT AND EQUIPMENT, which is happening now here and on other sites.

The images do get out, but why go on and on about the possible units and weapons on open forums.

Tuukka et al,

If we were discussing having seen some gentlemen boarding a C-130 or a bunch of Blackhawk's in Pakistan, what they were wearing and the gear they were carrying, I could see your point, and would be the first to pile in and second it.

However in this case, I think that the cat is pretty much out of the bag as most anyone can ascertain that the gentlemen pictured are from one of two "Tier One Assets" as the recent catch-phrase has come to be, and it doesn't really matter which one because for the intended job the are pretty much on par.

I don't see Karzai's opponents deciding that CAG-day is a better day to make an attempt on his life than on DEVGRU-day, based on their readings of AR15.com.  There, I broke down named the two units in question.

I think the only material consequence of these threads will be increased demand for among other things, carrying handle cutting services (already in evidence), photographer's vests, Kramer gunleather, SIG P226 pistols and magazines, Dockers and the always elusive "SOCOM stock."

Hooray for sellers of hacksaws, files and Birchwood Casey black pens, Orvis, Kramer, SIGArms, Levis, and whomever is sitting on a pile of preban SIG mags or SOCOM stocks somewhere.

This response is tounge in cheek, and an attempt at humor on a somber day.

If someone really, really things all this is dangerous, let's have the moderators delete the thread.  Truth be told I actually tried to delete the one I started a few days back, and succeeded in deleting the one I started on another forum.

Best regards,

JAW

Well the moderators are going to have to take this down cause I am not.

I don't give a damn who is what except as far as that will help me find out who built those rifles and why.

And I am interested because their existance and use in a such a high risk situation is contrary to much that has been posted here over the time that super short AR's were junk and should be avoided, that they were unreliable in both their functioning and their terminal performance. I am still looking for information to explain this apparent contradiction. What has changed? New technology, or just new perception..

So in hopes of finding more information I am just going to ride this thread untill it fades out naturally. And there is no logic behind the argument that discussing how the Navy got 10" ARs to function right is going to help further AlQieda operations.

I will also make one other observation.

That all the attempts to pin down the men involved to a unit in these threads were largely motivated by fans and partisans of the Army and Navy who wanted to take credit for their boys and no one had any qualms about saying "this is a Army trademark" or "no its NSW who always uses this" for the first day after.

Then after about 24hours what do we find? Two of three afghans shot and killed were innocent bystanders.

Now that its revealed  to be a less than perfect operation, then it becomes "No, no, their civilians", "their State Department contractors, yeah, thats it", "their CIA SAD", anything BUT military SF. And now people who were arguing just a couple days ago of who owns what, who does what, like it was a play call at the Army/Navy game are going,"maybe we shouldn't talk about this-we could compromise their security-we really should close these threads about this".

Coincidence?

ArmdLbrl,

If that oblique reference was to me, I'll have you know I have no dog in this fight (Army or Navy) and have the same motivations as you (acquiring knowledge about the equipment).

The reason I took down another thread I started on another board was that it treaded dangerously close to indentifying one of the operators by his name - something I think we can all agree is a bad idea.

My attempt to take down the thread I started here was out of apprehension that the same thing *might* happen in this venue, which thankfully has not occured.

FWIW, I wasn't able to delete the thread I started here after others had responded to it - so this is moot.

As you'll notice, I maintain that what we've done here, with respect to calling out the equipment, and by possible association, who the operators might be, has been harmless.

JAW

My own thoughts are most of these comments were better suited to the GD forum.  Since these photos are available from open sources - any OPSEC from the individual operator and their kit has been already compromised.

As far as the shorties go - they nor their uses are not new.  But... speaking from one who has tried to use one inside an enclosed environment I am not sure they are the ticket.
I suffered a concusion several years ago firing a few bursts inside a stairwell with one.  I think that a suppressor is mandatory for their use in an enclosed environment - and then that pushes the lenght out, however they are very handy and an excellent tool if a SHORT wpn is req'd.  
IMHO for most uses I think a M4 with a reflex type suppressor (I'll post pics of both setups when I get time) is a much better option for most uses.

As far as ammo effectiveness goes - I cheated and have had some of GKR's data for a while (about 2years? for some of his Hornady TAP tests etc.) and several months from some of his other 5.56mm related stuff.

I find it a little comical when I made reference to use of the 75gr TAP 7-8 months ago everyone poopooed it in favour of the M193 - and look at were we are at now.  

No doubt in 6+ months new information will come to light - and maybe we will be back down to a 62gr round or who knows.


But till then I assume the public access price of short 10" CQB uppers will skyrocket

ArmdLbrl,

By the way, excellent analysis of the news cycle with respect the characterization of the operators by Rumsfeld, et al changing from unidentified "special forces" types to independent contractors as more facts surrounding the incident came to light.

I hadn't focused on that.

JAW

P.S. "Can't we all just get along?"

Ever tried to get out of a vehicle mos-ricky tick with a longer barrel and full stocked weapon to engage targets rapidly? That is one reason why guys use them (I hear it everyday). Reliability is another matter-certain peoples have proirity on replacements, parts and maintenance schedules that would destroy the regular military in costs, not to mention maintenance/support that is usually not far behind and well stocked. So if a problem with a weapon system is noted it is hashed out in very short order.

Also, some army CID also are issued the SIG as a carry gun not to mention other more mundane units. What is my point-I am just saying on this part that it does not really seem to matter who was involved or from where they came.I know it eats some people up as to know who carried what and who they are but does it really matter?-and for some they would like to know what "the best" has so they may possibly have one built for whatever reason and that seems reasonable(I am even guilty of this sometimes)-Look at the SPR (and misconceptions as to it's usage)and how in some circles that has become a "Buzzword"-but people have been building AR's that are more accurate for years. I have found that most of these exotics are just that, not always carried but to perform certain duties or details-not always for general usage.
Just my .02 with no flaming intended to anyone here.

btt for sb

Any links to the video?