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Posted: 8/29/2002 6:45:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 6:47:51 AM EDT by Green_Canoe]
The reason I ask is Brouhaha seems to have access to information the rest of us can't see (5.7X28 FN thread). Do you have inside sources or do you work in the industry?

Tatjana on the other hand seems to be better versed in wound ballistics than 98% of the people who write stopping power articles in the gun rags. Is this just a hobby or do you work in the field?

Finally there is the collaboration question. You appear to live in two separate states / countries but collaborate frequently. Or, at least, Tatjana has a lot of margaritas while Brouhaha digs in gelatin.

Just interested, since my lifestyle is not quite as entertaining.

Thanks for the all the ammo info,

Kent

(edited to correct the FN cartridge designation)
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:01:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
The reason I ask is Brouhaha seems to have access to information the rest of us can't see (5.7X28 FN thread). Do you have inside sources or do you work in the industry?

Tatjana on the other hand seems to be better versed in wound ballistics than 98% of the people who write stopping power articles in the gun rags. Is this just a hobby or do you work in the field?

Finally there is the collaboration question. You appear to live in two separate states / countries but collaborate frequently. Or, at least, Tatjana has a lot of margaritas while Brouhaha digs in gelatin.

Just interested, since my lifestyle is not quite as entertaining.

Thanks for the all the ammo info,

Kent

(edited to correct the FN cartridge designation)



I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once...
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:07:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 9:11:01 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
ROTFLMAO!

Great response T,
Mike

PS - would ya like to come explain to our computer techs how that fresh baked trout I was eating for lunch ended up in my kkkkkkey board.......
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:34:26 AM EDT
Good one, Tatjana!
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:46:25 AM EDT
Bwah! Ha! Ha! Is that all it takes?



Come on... No real info?

Kent
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:53:28 AM EDT
I was gonna joke around too, but...

Instead, I'll just say that I'd rather not divulge where I get my info...how's that for info!

And yes, different states, but the travel is worth it, don't ya think!?
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 10:51:03 AM EDT
Doh!

Inquiring minds want to know. (Just look at how many people have read this thread since I started it this morning.)

The resulting info is worth the effort. Thanks again.

Kent
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 1:48:23 PM EDT
After the WeenieFest we usually see here, T is the Cats Pajamas!
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 2:53:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Instead, I'll just say that I'd rather not divulge where I get my info...



"I'd tell you but I would have to kill you...."

Are you a Mall Ninja?
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 3:09:54 PM EDT
I won't divuldge any info I've been entrusted with either (they said they'd kill me...). And not to discredit Brou or T's research here, but it ain't exactly rocket science. They've basically just expanded on a lot of research and info that is available out there. They have compiled it, then tested it for themselves to prove or dissprove what they have learned elsewhere and then submitted the work in progress (www.ammo-oracle.com for us all.

This is the first fragmentation test I've seen or ballistic info I've read. I thik what makes it so good is that they conducted some very "real world" tests. Using ammo and firearms that we all use, testing it in conditions that we would use it in. It made it very applicable to my own shooting.

I for one have learned an incredible amount from their work (as well as others... Troy and the rest of the gang) and can't thank them enough for their contribution to our little Interent community. I only wish I had more time and could assist them in their research (albeit not as a target )
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 3:34:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 4:21:50 PM EDT
Credentials?

We don't need no stupid credentials!
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 6:10:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2002 6:11:19 PM EDT by ilikelegs]

Originally Posted By tatjana:

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once...



What timing.
You take the cake.
Beautiful, witty, smart and loves guns.

Edited to add:
Please come to ETH's shootout in October !!!
Link Posted: 8/29/2002 8:50:19 PM EDT
GC- Find a copy of "The International Journal of Wound Ballistics" .. You will find MOST of what is printed in the gunrags is patent, unadulterated bullshit..(Maybe not 98%, but damn close)

If you are willing, it is not hard to reproduce the tests that Martin Fackler, and others perform to see how projectiles perform in various simulants.. Asking questions, performing tests, and posting results requires no credentials, just an inquisitive nature.

Brouhaha's statemt about some people not wanting their findings, or info referred to a face holds true to my own experiences. Some of these people doing these tests, or providing some insights would rather be left alone to pursue their studies.

I don't always agree with Brouhaha's or Tatjana's findings, but I'm not going to discount their intentions, or demand credentials based on a differing experience.

Meplat-

Link Posted: 8/29/2002 9:30:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once...



LMAO!
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 6:24:00 AM EDT
The question was no so much a result of my awe of their knowledge, but rather the curious pieces of info that have been dropped in the course giving us the knowledge. I realize most of the ballistic info is available to those that have the time to perform an in depth search. But in my case (wife and 2 kids), I only have total control of my lunch hour and the 10 minutes I spend in the bathroom over the course of the day.

Things like this make me say, "Hmmm".

For example: Tatjana, Swiss-Austrian in origin lists Oregon as home collaborates with Brouhaha who lists Texas as home. Assuming the info is truthful... It's not like they can say, "Hey, honey, watch the kids for a couple minutes. I'm going over to Brou's/Tatjana's for a couple minutes to blast a block of gelatin." Instead we are talking many hours by car or a few by air. Hmmmm...

Also, My wife is into cooking and quilting not wound ballistics. I bet if I polled 1000 women at random I would not come up with one that had even read a scientific article on wound ballistics , let alone one that has taken the time to gather as much info as Tatjana . Hmmmmm...

Then there was Brouhaha insinuating he had an inside track on information the 5.7x28 FN thread found elsewhere on the ammo board. What kind of inside track could that be? Hmmm...

I am certainly not questioning the veracity of the info they present. And I'm very grateful since I do not have the time to do all the research they have done. I am also pleased with their general adherence to the scientific method.

BTW I do not want to ignore Troy. Troy's posts on all things AR-15 related have given me far more insight into this weapon than I have received anywhere else.

So being very curious person by nature, I had to ask.

Thanks,

Kent

P.S. Did I suck up enough?
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 6:43:27 AM EDT
Does it hurt when you think that much?

All the info I have given you is truthful, and I have no wife and kids to occupy all my free-time.

And I don't think Troy is a real person. I think he's actually an auto-posting robot with all the data you can imagine on guns and ammunition stored in his silicon-based brain.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 9:59:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Does it hurt when you think that much?



It usually doesn't hurt too much, but I get sad when the voices in my head refuse to talk to me.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 10:47:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 11:19:25 AM EDT
CREDENTIALS:
You have got to be kidding me.
Has anyone ever worked with a governmental inspector of any kind with great credentials?
Many will scare the shit out of you when you think they are responsible for your well being.
Credentials are just like a resume, It may get you in the door but that's when people with real world experience and common since do the work.
Brouhaha and Tatjana have done the work, and put out some good real word info.
Thank you guys.
Link Posted: 8/30/2002 5:59:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
And I don't think Troy is a real person. I think he's actually an auto-posting robot with all the data you can imagine on guns and ammunition stored in his silicon-based brain.



Well, had you shown up to the BRC, you coulda found out for yourself...

-Troy



For those of you who didn't attend the BRC here is a photo.

Link Posted: 8/30/2002 8:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2002 8:49:44 PM EDT by ProfessorEvil]

Originally Posted By Naked80:
For those of you who didn't attend the BRC here is a photo.
www.why-not.com/img/data.gif



more like

Link Posted: 8/30/2002 10:26:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
Then there was Brouhaha insinuating he had an inside track on information the 5.7x28 FN thread found elsewhere on the ammo board. What kind of inside track could that be? Hmmm...



www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 4:46:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 80:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
And I don't think Troy is a real person. I think he's actually an auto-posting robot with all the data you can imagine on guns and ammunition stored in his silicon-based brain.



Well, had you shown up to the BRC, you coulda found out for yourself...

-Troy



For those of you who didn't attend the BRC here is a photo.

www.why-not.com/img/data.gif



LOL ROFL
Link Posted: 8/31/2002 6:16:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 3:19:41 PM EDT by FrankSquid]
Troy at his BEST.....


Link Posted: 8/31/2002 6:24:23 PM EDT
The last I heard they were

Dr Brouhaha (Tee Hee!)
And
Dr Tatjana (Tee Hee!)

Thats what they said when they shot the Jello!

Thats credentials enough aint it?
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 3:24:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 3:27:16 AM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:
The question was no so much a result of my awe of their knowledge, but rather the curious pieces of info that have been dropped in the course giving us the knowledge. I realize most of the ballistic info is available to those that have the time to perform an in depth search. But in my case (wife and 2 kids), I only have total control of my lunch hour and the 10 minutes I spend in the bathroom over the course of the day.

Things like this make me say, "Hmmm".

For example: Tatjana, Swiss-Austrian in origin lists Oregon as home collaborates with Brouhaha who lists Texas as home. Assuming the info is truthful... It's not like they can say, "Hey, honey, watch the kids for a couple minutes. I'm going over to Brou's/Tatjana's for a couple minutes to blast a block of gelatin." Instead we are talking many hours by car or a few by air. Hmmmm...



I was in Oregon when I started with AR15.com. I just haven't bothered to change it to where I happen to be at any given moment. I would have changed it like 7 times by now. (OR -> CA -> OR -> IL -> CH -> AT -> IL... well, you get the idea).

Yes, we do get together to do gel tests- I have other things to do in Texas and Cali though so it's worth it for me to stop for a day or two if I'm headed West. Plus, I can't really do them in Chicago, where I spend a lot of time right now (thank you very much Mayor Daley). I'm technically a "student" at the moment so I have lots of free time on my hands. I'm also "down" with a knee injury so I might be a "student" for quite awhile yet.


Also, My wife is into cooking and quilting not wound ballistics. I bet if I polled 1000 women at random I would not come up with one that had even read a scientific article on wound ballistics , let alone one that has taken the time to gather as much info as Tatjana . Hmmmmm...


I have to blame my brother ("Austrian" on here). He was the one who started me shooting and introduced me to terminal and external ballistics. At one point he was involved in testing and recommending rounds for an organization and that's what got me hooked. A particular stoppage failure caused him to get very intense with terminal ballistics study, I sort of followed suit. He's a REGULAR and uncredited source/reference for many things I post. I also did military service so that might help explain the interest I have in small arms. (After enough time comparing the SA80 and the Sig 550 it was pretty obvious that the spectrum of small arms is VERY wide when it comes to quality. I want to make sure what I have WORKS when it's supposed to). Additionally, Swiss/Austrian culture is far more gun-friendly, particularly for women, than the U.S., generally. I'm something of a product of that. I started shooting competitively at a young age.


Then there was Brouhaha insinuating he had an inside track on information the 5.7x28 FN thread found elsewhere on the ammo board. What kind of inside track could that be? Hmmm...


I think Troy mentioned something about this above. It's true we do occasionally come by info that we are asked not to share or to be vague about. Generally, this is when someone doesn't mind us sharing with "law enforcement" but doesn't want to release the information into the "general public." Many studies are privately funded and the results are the subject of intellectual property and confidentiality restrictions. Some are actually classified.


I am certainly not questioning the veracity of the info they present. And I'm very grateful since I do not have the time to do all the research they have done. I am also pleased with their general adherence to the scientific method.


We try to be consistent. Now that we've settled down with our methods and have things working quite nicely you'll probably see a faster pace of testing. We're primarily going to be testing from 16" barrels as we (or at least >I<) are interested in practical terminal performance of rounds from carbines for defensive purposes. We've done some 20" stuff, but it tends to be more theoretical since those velocities are less likely to actually come into play in defensive shoots- at least from my weapons.

Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:39:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 7:43:11 AM EDT by ARMarksMan]
If I have to use deadly force to protect myself or family a 223 to the head is a done deal, fragmentation doesn't much matter. A target the size of a head, hell how could you miss. I couldn't anyway. I consider a target that large easy picking or should I say plinking.
This isn't meant to be funny, just that hitting a target that size is a no brainer.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 9:28:55 AM EDT


"A target the size of a head, hell how could you miss" and "This isn't meant to be funny, just that hitting a target that size is a no brainer."

Sorry, but I found that combination amusing. I'm certian a head shot would result in a no brainer.

Meplat-
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 11:56:27 AM EDT
Just take Tatjana's word for it....anybody that looks as awesome as she does in her "sniperflage" deserves our humble, worshipful, devoted respect and admiration.

(Yes, I am groveling at her feet)

BTW, T, my wife is also a beautiful sniperchick. I knew that I loved her when she nailed that 1st deer with a heart shot at a measured 225 yds. Her rifle of choice...a Remington Model 600 in .308

Yeeee Haaa!
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 12:12:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARMarksMan:
If I have to use deadly force to protect myself or family a 223 to the head is a done deal, fragmentation doesn't much matter. A target the size of a head, hell how could you miss. I couldn't anyway. I consider a target that large easy picking or should I say plinking.
This isn't meant to be funny, just that hitting a target that size is a no brainer.


Well, as long as you consider sight line above bore, a constant 2.5" with iron sights, and varies with optics depending on your scope/sight/mount combo..., and the holdover for your rifle at close range, which depends on all of the above and what range you're zeroed at..., and if you practice head shots at close range.... it might be a no-brainer. It's easy to miss a head shot at close range if you aim for the head. Think about it.

As for me, I practice a double-tap to the chest and then a head shot. I ain't no sniper, I just go with what's most efficacious per current training regimens.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 12:31:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 12:50:55 PM EDT by ARMarksMan]
Meplat,
Exactly, but I tried not to sound like a cold hearted bastard, Some people take offense to that, you know. lol

Big_Bear,
I do practice a lot of different regimens, double & triple taps of course. But my prefered method , ONE SHOT, ONE KILL. Which I've been perfecting for over 40 years. I just love that one beautifully placed round, pure art. This is the one that makes my AR hot! :)
My shorty AR, just iron sights zeroed @25 yds, so it shoots accurate @ anything up to that. I'm a firm believer on lots of practice without a scope & free standing. Longer shots DPMS Extreme Super Bull 24 in., with scope of course.



Link Posted: 9/1/2002 4:25:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2002 4:29:05 PM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By ARMarksMan:
If I have to use deadly force to protect myself or family a 223 to the head is a done deal, fragmentation doesn't much matter. A target the size of a head, hell how could you miss. I couldn't anyway. I consider a target that large easy picking or should I say plinking.
This isn't meant to be funny, just that hitting a target that size is a no brainer.



Having done combat drills with snap headshots (over and over and over) I have to disagree with you. First off, that target isn't going to volunteer to sit still so you can peg it. Second, it's unlikely to make itself super visible when it identifies you have a firearm.

You might want to rethink this based on practical experience or try some moving target combat drills even at 7-15 yards to see that what you propose is by no means an easy shot.

Snap guessing at range (which you have to do as it makes as much as a 2 inch vertical difference between muzzle and 15 yards- the difference between a mouth hit and a solid head hit) and up-compensating as well as popping the round where it will actually do some good (ocular cavity) is hard enough on stationary paper under time pressure. Now try a moving target.

Really, I'd suggest you stick with controlled pairs to center mass unless the head is just asking to be tagged or you have a stoppage problem (Mozambique).
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 6:52:56 PM EDT
I am going to have to each Tatjana here.
Not only is the head a small target it is also a much more mobile tgt than the chest, as it pivots to a great degree both side to side and front to back - in a faction of a sec the tgt can have moved with not warning - unlike the chest
Unless one is firing >100 rds a day (and practicing stress shots too) I would concentrate on CoM shots.
Link Posted: 9/1/2002 7:16:42 PM EDT
ditto what tatjana and Canadian_Tactical said...

not only that, for head shots the area you need to hit is much smaller than the skull casing. An optimun hit would be to the medulla oblongata but it's very small, and a cursory knowledge of anatomy helps.

If you hit a glancing shot to a head that's moving and bopping around it might not put the bad guy out of action. Might just piss him off if he's on drugs.

Center of mass.... 2 shots <pop> <pop>... and THEN a head shot.
Link Posted: 9/2/2002 9:26:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:
ditto what tatjana and Canadian_Tactical said...

not only that, for head shots the area you need to hit is much smaller than the skull casing. An optimun hit would be to the medulla oblongata but it's very small, and a cursory knowledge of anatomy helps.

If you hit a glancing shot to a head that's moving and bopping around it might not put the bad guy out of action. Might just piss him off if he's on drugs.

Center of mass.... 2 shots <pop> <pop>... and THEN a head shot.



According to forensic studies about the most reliable frontal headshots: Below the brow, above the upper lip, inside of the out rim of the eye sockets. (Ocular cavity).


Link Posted: 9/3/2002 6:43:33 AM EDT
Hmmmm. I might have to save that pic and use it for targets. (I keep a pretty big collection of targets)
Link Posted: 9/3/2002 7:49:43 AM EDT
Thanks for your reply on 9/01, Tatjana. That satisfies my curiosity. (You are more mobile than the average person.)

Testing out of a 16" barrel is fine by me. I have a 20", when I see your results I just add some range to get the same impact velocity.

Looking forward to the next installment.

Kent
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 8:26:52 PM EDT
Tatjana, if you ride, next time your are in CA, visit my barn in Santa Barbara, maybe you can help me convince my wife to let me put in a shooting range...

www.mcmillanfarms.com
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 8:58:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kavik:
Tatjana, if you ride, next time your are in CA, visit my barn in Santa Barbara, maybe you can help me convince my wife to let me put in a shooting range...

www.mcmillanfarms.com



I'm down with a pretty bad knee injury right now, one more surgery to go, I sure do appreciate the invitation tho!
Link Posted: 9/7/2002 10:07:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:
According to forensic studies about the most reliable frontal headshots: Below the brow, above the upper lip, inside of the out rim of the eye sockets. (Ocular cavity).

www.ar15.com/members/albums/tatjana%2Fskull%2Ejpg


Looks like home plate. One strike, you're out?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 3:37:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:

Looks like home plate. One strike, you're out?

Sorry, couldn't resist.



It's the martial arts triangle of pain.

BTW For future reference here are my credentials.
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