Subject kinda says it all.

Now that I've got a basic AR to keep my FAL build company, and I've built my Glock mag AR-9, 22 might be next on the list.

But I'd be replacing my low-end 10/22 target rig if I got it...

I know, most AR-22s are for blasting cheap bulk ammo - the few accuracy oriented 22 set ups I've seen have been for practicing National Match or just doing Appleseed shoots, and 2moa with irons is acceptable for these uses.

I know various CF caliber ARs can be very accurate.  So as a mechanical system, it can do it right?  Is it just a matter of market drive and lack of good barrels with a chamber tighter than a sloppy 22 sporter?  I saw the thread on a AR upper that can use 10/22 barrels... so that should take care of the quality barrel with decent chamber issue (Green Mountain, Fedderson, Kidd, etc).

My 10/22 can shoot MOA consistently with low end target ammo - CCI SV, SK Std+/Wolf MT, Geco/Norma, etc.  Can I build a $500-ish upper and do the same?  Keystone is closer to $1k, JP Rifles has a "upper w/o hand guards or a receiver" for $500 that is supposed to be MOA capable...

Or should I just stick with my 10/22 ?

With the AR-15 especially 22 rimfire barrel and ammo are the key to accuracy.  Trigger, optics and float tubes make no difference if you don’t have an accurate barrel and good accurate Target ammo.   The cheapest barrel that might give you adequate accuracy is Beyer’s 22 LR barrel.   I doubt you would get the accuracy you want with CMMG, TACCOM, Nordic or Tactical Solutions.    Compass Lake Engineering, Keystone or JP are probably the best options right now.


The Kriss 22 LR AR-15 is just coming onto the market and uses 10/22 barrels and might be a little cheaper option but generally you have to pay to play in the best accuracy department.


http://www.beyerbarrels.com/barrels/ar15_barrels

just a couple of comments.... my STC 10/22 will shoot 10 shot groups under 1" at 100yd with the tuner dialed into the ammo, .930 Clark fluted barrel,  a 24x 1/8minute dot Tasco scope, reduced head space, and the firing pin vertical motion limited... Federal SuperX HV

with a CMMG conversion unit and  standard 5.56 barrel, my AR would shoot about  3 1/2" at 50yd, 1 1/2x ACOG... CCI minimag... RRA NM trigger

with the CMMG conversion and dedicated CMMG .22lr barrel, no other work, would drop that to about 2" at 50yd,  1 1/2x ACOG ... CCI minimag... RRA NM trigger

I won't pay the $ for Lapua Center-X to get mine to do sub-MOA at 100 on a regular basis but I know it can do it :)  I haven't gone as far on my 10/22 as you - a stock that fits, trigger work, bedded action, free floated Green Mountain barrel, and good glass (just got a Japan made Tasco 32x from when they were the good stuff).

The virtue of the 10/22, and yours specifically, is that it is sorted out and parts support and expertise is wide and deep.  Your 1moa 10/22 might not be worth the price a person unfamiliar with it would pay.

The world of the AR22 has three traits that may make it harder to navigate if accuracy is your goal.


1.  The AR22 world is a lot smaller.  I'm on three gun boards and I recognize Vascar as a significant authority in the area, and Shadowcop seems to have a lot of experience with these.  Contrast that with 10/22 world.

2.  Though the AR22 world is smaller, it is also more diverse because there isn't one standard design as there is with a 10/22.  Builders need to sort out inter-operability issues.

3.  The bulk of the AR22 world seems fixated on getting their rifles to reliably dump an entire mag quickly, or at least this is how people on youtube illustrate that they've overcome the function problems they encounter.  You'll find fewer people bragging about their group sizes than you will in a 10/22 focused forum.


My CMMG barreled rifle, with an hilariously sloppy chamber, shoots under 2moa (best groups with a 4x scope at 100yards are 1.25 edge to edge).  That's more than good enough for me for three position iron sight practice.  There is another fellow at TheFiringLine who reports a similar result.

The sad fact, the one you probably already know, is that you won't know if the more expensive AR22 options will give you the accuracy you want until you try one.  My guess is that it will cost more than the same result in your 10/22.

ivanivan... the harmonic tuner really did the final trick... the 10/22 barrel was bedded and double lugged, but a 1 1/2" piece of aluminum round stock about 3" long, .930 hole with saw cut lengthwise and cross pinch bolt allowed the ammunition to be tuned for the harmonic of the barrel... fire a group, incrementally move the tuner and repeat...the sub 1minute was with high velocity ammo...shot the STC for the last 5 years it was in Florida

Yes an AR22 can be accurate, even cheap uppers. The trick is to make sure that it’s set up correctly and find the ammo it likes.

For example, I have a Chiappa upper that shoots very accurate at 25 and 50 yards. I did swap the polymer receiver for an aluminum one and free float hand guard. It shoots CCI AR Tacticol ammo the best. I’d say it’s on par with my Marlin rifles but won’t compete with my Savage rifles or even the Romanian M1969 training rifle.

Using good parts and a proper build/setup will produce a very accurate AR22.

Here is a picture of a target shot with a Kurt’s Kustom Firearms 22 rimfire upper.  The 1:16 twist barrel uses a unique barrel extension which will only accept 22 long rifle converson bolt with chamber insert.  The barrel works with any common AR-15 22 conversion like Ciener, Colt or M-261.  On this particular day I was using the Ciener conversion.  This target was shot off the bench using bipod and rear sand bag at 50 yards with five different types of 22 rimfire ammunition.   This gives you an idea of typical dedicated AR-15 rimfire accuracy.  This rifle has a RRA NM trigger and a Tasco 2.5-10X44 scope set on 9 power.  I conducted a test to compare the accuracy of 22 conversions to dedicated AR-15 rimfire uppers.


This target was shot with the KKF barrel with Ciener bolt with chamber insert.

4877D701-C073-440A-A6D0-5F999E8823DE by


The ammo was shot at the center square first Eley Club, then upper left CCI Standad velocity, then upper right CCI Blazer, then lower left 40 grain Federal Game Shok plated then lower right Aguila Super Extra 40 grain plated round nose.   As you can see ammo makes a significant difference in accuracy.


Just for comparison here is a target shot the same day with my Savage Mark II FV heavy barrel bolt action.  I made sure the barrel was free floated and the stock screws were tightened to spec.  I used a bipod and rear sand bag off the same bench at 50 yards.  Ammo was out of the same box as previous target shot in same order 5 shot groups.



[url=https://flic.kr/p/YJCwfu]6B681563-6F14-47B7-9B6E-C78CAB735699 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]

That CCI group is impressive.

Is there a companion plate showing the result of a dedicated upper?

The KKF upper is a dedicated custom build using a 22 rimfire blank modified to fit an AR-15.  This upper was built several years ago when there were very few AR-15’s chambered for 22 LR.  Rick Kuhel was out of production as was the first generation Bushmaster carbon 22 LR upper and lower.   I think DPMS was still making their Gen I version but this was in early 2000 while the AWB was still in effect.


Here is a target from my Gen I DPMS bull barrel dedicated upper.  The groups don’t reflect the true accuracy of this barrel because I had a mil spec single stage trigger in the rifle at the time I shot the groups.  I was using another Tasco 2.5-10X44 scope set on 9 power at 50 yards just like with other two rifles.  Five shot groups out of the same ammo boxes.


7C69F62A-2933-4765-92A3-7EA1CFFE93DA by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]

I re-shot this rifle after I replaced the trigger with a Geissele G2S and it made a significant difference in the groups.   I just shot this rifle again with the same a few weeks ago.  I’ll see if Incan find the target.

It's OK.  I misunderstood; I thought this used the conversion barrel adapter that looks like a 5.56 case.

Even for a dedicated barrel, that CCI group was nice.

Here is a group shot with the DPMS Gen I bull barrel with the Geissele G2S trigger.  I wasn’t shooting very good this day but the group was still a little better.


8F187288-60EF-4BD0-A4A6-1A062F9A1729 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]



The second photo is of a ten shot group using 40 grain Blazer at 50 yards off the bench with the DPMS Bull barrel.



6E140B44-464E-4CCE-9FDE-15856CD8818B by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]

The KKF barrel uses the conversion kit with the chamber insert into the chamber instead of the later designs which used the collar on the conversion to fit the barrel stub.   The rimfire bullet actually travels a short distance in the chamber insert before engaging the 22 rimfire barrel.  The KKF barrel is not a match grade barrel but has ended up being a pretty accurate barrel.   The real difference in the KKF barrel and a 223/5.56 barrel design is the barrel extension.  The KKF barrel extension is a round hole the diameter if the chamber insert and a standard 5.56/223 bolt will not mate up to this barrel,  

This design eliminates the possibilty of firing a 5.56/223 cartridge in this barrel.   The rimfire barrel is machined in the same fashion as a 5.56/223 barrel but rimfire land and groove diameter with rimfire 1:16 twist.

Here is a picture of my KKF 22 LR AR-15.


1E4F84D6-8398-4ECC-B3A3-AF601AA7A8CE by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]



FF996937-265F-4BB2-9F2C-47A2AB8EFEB8 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]

Possibly off topic, do you prefer the Geissele over the Rock River?  If you've tried a Larue, which of the three do you like best?

I ask because I like my Rock Rivers, but switched to Larue for this rimfire business.  I can't recall having ever used a Geissele.

Really sorry for the thread high jack but I had problems with my RRA NM in my DPMS bull barrel.   I sent the trigger into RRA and they said they fixed it and sent it back with pretty expensive fee plus shipping both ways.  Trigger still failed when reinstalled, ouch, RRA does not recommend or will not warranty their NM triggers with blow back 22’s.  The rifle fires once and hammer locks with hammer cocked and only can release the hammer by disassembly.  I really think this trigger was defective from factory as it hadn’t been used that much.  I have one RRA NM trigger with about 50,000 rounds of rimfire ammo digested and still works.


I have about eight RRA NM triggers but have since bought two Geissele G2S triggers plus just bought a Larue MBT.   I put the Larue in one of my 6.5 Grendels which I have yet to shoot.   From dry firing I really like the MBT and will probably buy more.   The RRA NM are better than mil spec but each trigger is kind of unigue and slightly different.  My two G2S are identical with no question asked warranty.  For the $20-$30 difference I plan on buying more Larue’s.  I’d be surprised if I have any problem with the MBT 2S but so far I really like it and bet if there is a problem Larue will take care of it.


All three triggers are pretty similar but right now without shooting the MBT 2S I’d say I like it better than the Geissele G2S and the RRA NM.  RRA NM are good for the money but probably not as good for people who shoot a lot.   I think head to head the numbers prove the longevity of Geissele and probably Larue.

I'll accept the blame for that.  I asked the question.

Ivanivan, this thread has about as much info on accurate AR22s as I found in my scouring of the internet a few months ago.  The conversations all go this way too.  Step one is establishing that you and the person with whom communicate are using the same or compatible equipment.  Step 2 is seeing what parts of their experience will be useful for you.

Here is a picture of the DPMS Bull barrel Gen I AR-15.


AC5B8491-033D-4EEE-82E1-77E35CD6243F by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150966264@N06/]

Won't blame you - decent trigger is the FIRST thing to do for 10/22 accuracy, so discussion on which ones are good (and work with non-556-milspec bolts like a 22 uses...) is quite on-topic as far as I'm concerned.

Geissele SSA-E is the best trigger ever.

Just wanted to let you know I'm replying to you, as well as the thread in general.

Anyway, groups like that show potential.  And I understand market - there isn't much of a market for folks like me who shoot fun matches were extreme accuracy is required, but it hasn't become a total equipment race like regular Bench Rest, etc.

We shoot various rifles - a few 10/22 builds, a H&R 12, a few Savage bolt guns, a few CZ bolt guns, the occasional Rem 40x or Annie.  We all have high power scopes - 20x is the lowest that shows up on a regular basis.  All of these rifles have won matches - it isn't about the equipment after a certain point.  

Here's some of the matches we shoot to give you an idea of the accuracy level I'm looking for.

Medicine match - various OTC meds glued to toothpicks shot at 25 and 50 yards.  It we have a tie, we'll split playing cards (lots of vertical play, no horizontal play) or air soft BBs glued to fishing line.
Sucker match - dum dum lolipops at 25 and 50 yards.  Ties we'll work into medicine match left overs, and then go to splitting cards, etc.
Golf ball - Golf balls at 50/100/150 yards (golf ball is just under 2" diameter).  Tie breakers move the golf balls to 175 and then 200 yards.
1/5 scale silhouettes - since we shoot from a bench (I'm youngest regular at 46!) we stretch the distances out - chickens at 75 yards, pigs at 100, turkeys at 125 and rams at 150.  Tie breakers will move chickens out to 100 then 125 then 150.
The "tack driver" challenge - target w/ 1/2" black bull that has a 1/4" white inner circle - only counts as a hit if you hit the white.  We shoot this at 25 and 50 yards.  Tie breakers is a second set of targets :)

Maybe I am better of sticking with my 10/22... there just doesn't seem to be a market for a match barreled AR-22 so there is no product to fill that demand.  I had hopes for that new receiver that uses 10/22 barrels - but the maker specifically says "no Bentz chambers".

These are at 50 yards from a Keystone Accuracy dedicated 20 inch .22LR Service Rifle trainer.

B

@IMachineGuns

Very interested to learn more about your new bolt (and barrel).

1.  Any chance of a LRBHO?

2.  Is the bolt carrier tunable (i.e. different springs for different load like Kidd does with his 10-22 charging handle)?

3.  What chamber on your barrel (bentz, match modified, etc...)

4.  Would this work in a side charging upper like the Gibbz  - if you look at the rear a CMMG BCG can't work because of the slope where a standard charging handle would be


5.  Any more pictures of the BCG and possibly the barrel (I see that it is fluted but would like  total view of it).

6. Price for BCG and Barrel?


Thanks

Stretch just asked all the right questions.

Ivan, I wouldn't buy an AR22 to shoot from a bench.  The competition you are describing sounds as if it were designed for bolt action rimfires, and for the money you are going to spend in AR land, you could have a very nice CZ or Savage.

I spent Saturday shooting five round groups at 100 yards to test a new scope.  I won't complain about my inch and a half groups from the 16 inch heavy taper CMMG barrel, but I did just break my second firing pin as I pass 4000 rounds.  We both know that a less expensive 10/22 would beat that accuracy and not have any broken parts.

I built my AR22 for three position shooting.  AR controls and ergonomics work well enough for me, and are better in position than even a good 10/22 stock.  I also find it easier to take down and clean than a 10/22.  However, it isn't a benchrest accurate rifle.

I know you didn't ask, but you got my two cents anyway.

Definitely stick with your 10-22 for this type of shooting. I don't think you'll be able to match the precision with an AR-22 upper anywhere near your $500 budget. Plenty of people are building mag dump AR-22 uppers that run close to $500.

Photobucket sucks, because I'd really like to see those pics.  I'm thinking about getting the spacegun version of that upper, so I'm curious how you like it?