I got a wild hair and decided to try some sabots in an old blowback 7.62X25 Tok carbine I got years ago. The picture below is the carbine with no sights yet since I'm just in the test firing mode.

The picture is the old blowback type magwell adapter with a PPS magazine in place.

The sabots and kit are actually from EARCO and I bought the kit several years ago but when I got involved with my DI operated 7.62X25 I kinda forgot all about the sabots. The picture below is of the sobots on some 22 caliber bullets and the bullets seated in Tok cartridges. the long one on the left is a 68gr bullet which is way too long to fit in a PPS magazine.

the sabot round in the center uses a 50gr V-max bullet and the sobot on the right is a 40gr V-max bullet. They are set at an over-all length that will allow them to fit in the PPS magazine.
OK, here is what happened –– I loaded 5 grains of Unique under the 40gr V-max and fired several rounds and it worked but seemed a bit anemic. I went a bit hotter with the 50gr V-max bullets (5.5 grains of Unique) and it still seemed anemic. I guess what I need to do is try to work up a magazine that will allow the cartridges to much longer and thus allow for a larger powder charge.
The picture below is of the loaded sabot rounds at a length that allows them to fit in a PPS magazine.

As they are right now they would make nice plinking rounds but I was looking for something with a lot more zip.

Now the second stage won't fit in a PPS mag but seems to work using a 20 round Pmag.

The picture below is maybe the longest I can get using a 50gr V-max (moly) bullet. this particulare version measures 1.60" long and leaves a good amount of room for the powder charge. I believe the bottom of the plastic sabot is at the base of the shoulder.

I was trying to get the sabots to work in my old blowback Tok upper but since the longer cartridges have a larger powder capacity I decided that maybe I should try these in one of my DI Tok uppers. I have not actually loaded any of the longer sabot cartridges, I've only made dummy test cartridges. The twist rate on the barrel of the DI upper I'll use is 1:10 twist.

Putting all your info in quickload, using the 40g V-Max, as a sabot loaded to 1.6" COAL out of a 16" barrel:
Power Pistol looks like the best powder choice at 11.0 grains = 2975 fps at 33,000 psi
Looks like 9.3 grains of Unique would get your 40g V-Max to about 2880 fps at 34,500 psi.

I've run really hot loads in my DI Tok playing with subsonics. The DI action is built for 60,000, but use & work up at your own risk.
I used pmags for my longer subsonics & they worked well.

A big thanks for the information! I've been kinda working blind on this since I could not find any reloading info on the original .223 Timbs that was designed for the CZ-52 pistol. It's funny how well the Magpul Magazine seems to work with all kinds of different rounds and I'm glad I have some. My only problem is the fact I started out with the blowback upper and, of course, it won't work with the Pmag since there is no ejector sitting there when I use that mag. It looks like the PSI values you show are right on for Tok pistol pressure so I may be able to test this in my DI tok carbine with the shorter gas system. I sure wish I could find a short, round nose 22 caliber bullet that was around 50 or 55 grains –– those V-max bullets are long and require the sabots to be seated in the case deeper and eating up case capacity for powder.

Oops! Tried a lighter 8.5 grains of the Unique in the 7.62X25 case and it's right up to the case mouth. I guess the powder volume per grain is a bit too much for this project. I guess I need to look into low volume per grain type powders –– something similar to the volume of AA#9 powder per grain. Power pistol has a really good density for this project –– but –– I don't have any right now. A couple of other powders for the short rounds that would fit in the PPS magazine are Hodgdon Titegroup and Accurate #2. They might make the short rounds really work nice in the PPS mags.

You can find most bullet lengths at this site:  JBM Ballistics
QL lists them all, too.
Max for Tok is 35,000psi, so that is what I plug in & it spits out the powders for that combo
I bought the program to play with unusual stuff not normally found in manuals.

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Looks like shortest bullet would be the Speer 46g Flat Nose SP (218 Bee) at 0.483"

Hornady also makes a little longer one at 0.500"


Using the std Tok suggested COAL of 1.390" & the Speer 46g 0.483", I get the following:
- best powder is Vihtavuori N105 at 13.3grains = 34,432psi & 2850fps=830 ft lbs
- your Unique woud be 8.9grains = 34488psi & 2697 fps =743 ft lbs
Running these to 1.390" only puts the bullet 0.073" in the case

Running the Speer 46g in to 1.250" COAL would give you a better seating depth of 0.213"
- your Unique woud be 7.9 grains = 34376 psi & 2595 fps =688 ft lbs

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The Next shortest bullet would be a Hornady 55g Spire Point, Super Explosive (SXSP 2260) at 0.630" long

Again, Using the std Tok suggested COAL of 1.390", I get the following:
- your Unique woud be 7.4 grains = 34,022 psi & 2347 fps =673 ft lbs
- best powder is still Vihtavuori N105 at 10.9 grains = 31,762 psi & 2446 fps=731 ft lbs. Pressure is lower here because I set parameters at a max of 120% case fill, which means a compressed load, and the N105 fills the case to 120% & only gives 31,760 psi.
Running these to 1.390" puts the bullet to a better 0.220" in the case

QL usually underestimates velocity on pistol pressure cartridges, sometimes up to 20% less. Using N105, I have actually had velocities be 100-104% of predicted when using it in .38 Special. Please let me know what you find. Thx.

I think maybe the problem with QL is it can't take into account the exta length caused by the sabot. I was also quite surprised that only 8,5 grains of the Unique would fill the whole 7.62X25 cartridge case. The volume per grain is kinda high on Unique but Power Pistol looks pretty good as far as volume pre grain goes. By the way, the sabot and the 40gr V-max measure 0.824" long so these bullets with sabots attached take up more than expected volume in the cartridge case. I have some really short 35gr Hornady 22 caliber bullets that when seated in the sabot just stick out of the sabot by a hair.
Hornady 35 grain bullet.

This bullet is very similar to the shape of the 30 grain bullet found in the 22 magnum rimfire.

One bullet I didn't try is the Hornady 35 grain. Look at the picture below and see the difference between the 50gr in a sabot on the left, set at 1.37" and the 35gr in a sabot set at the same length.

The sabot on the 35 granin bullet is just below the base of the shoulder on the cartridge case. It should give me a much better powder capacity and still fit in the PPS magazine. Now to figure a good fast powder for this little puppy.

If you can give me the length of the entire sabot & bullet together, I can plug that in.
I was using a Remington accelerator & adjusting the data for the different projectiles.
Actually, if you could weigh the sabot, too that woudl help.

the length of the 35gr bullet and sabot is 0.691"
The combined weight of the bullet and sabot is 40.6 grains.

Edit to add: I ran the new cartridge with the 35gr V-max through the blowback carbine, using the PPS magazine, and it ran like a champ! I used 10.0 grains of AA #9 and still had some room left in the case even with the bullet seated so the COL was 1.36". I'm wondering just how well that Power Pistol powder would work?

second edit to add: I worked the powder charge up to 11.0 grains of AA #9. With a standard carbine buffer spring and the heavy 9mm buffer the carbine operated just like it would have with the commercial Tok ammo and chucked the brass a really good distance. The cartridges fit easily in the PPS magazine with a COL of 1.36" . The problem now is I don't know when I'll get to the range next to see if these rounds can hit the broad side of a barn.

I decided to go with a 55gr bullet in the longer cartridges. Below is a picture of the 35gr bullets on the left –– they fit in the standard PPS-43 magazine. On the right is the 55gr bullets set out long and will be used in a 30 carbine magazine with adapter. The long cartridges feed smooth as silk. Only problem I have now is I won't be able to get to the range for a few weeks to check if I can get any type of accuracy out of either cartridge. I have decided to go strictly with the DI tokarev carbine.


Below is a picture of the M1 carbine 15 round magazine and adapter that I will use for the long cartridges.


this is just a wild hair thing –– if I can get a bit of accuracy out of the cartridges it might be fun to use for varmints and plinking. The bullet in the sabot shown above in the M1 carbine magazine is the 50gr moly v-max which is actually longer than the 55gr Sierra spire point I finally decided to go with.

I finally got to the range and tried the sabots. The short light 35gr Hornady 22 caliber bullets did not do well at all. I was hoping that they would shoot better since they fit in the PPS-43 mag and  the CZ-52 magazine. The better ones were the sabots with the 55gr Sierra spire point bullets. To be honest, I had just gotten a Leapers scope which is not the best in the world but it was cheap and went to 9 power. I first tried to zero the carbine in at 50 yards using factory Sellier&Bellott 7.62X25 ammo. I got fairly close but I did not want to shoot out the target center but you can see two 30 caliber holes just at the lower corner of the target center box or diamond shape. the sabots shot 2.5" high from where I shot the 7.62X25 ammo with a major spread of 1.5" but there were some really odd flyers. Some of the flyers were right near the original 7.62 bullet holes and a couple were high and wide but the major of the rounds fell into a 1.5" wide hole –– I fired a total of 30 of the sabots with 55gr Sierra bullets at this target.

I had a problem peeling the target off the backboard and what little there was off the center section where the bulllets hit,was lost. I re-stuck the target back on some cardboard so I could save it. I placed a quarter in the shot-out section to give a reference as to the size of the impact area. You can tell that I am also not the best shot when you look at the separation between the two holes made by the 7.62 Tokarev bullets. As can be seen, there was no keyholing of any bullets. This was just a test thing for me and it did work out actually better than I expected but I still feel bad about the 35gr Hornady bullets not shooting well.

I think during the load development for the Timbs, they found the same thing - it took about 55 gr bullet weight to get decent grouping, all others were like confetti, all over the place

I forgot to mention what I found the next day. I was cleaning the carbine and found the scope was loose. I checked the scope at the range but felt there was no side to side movement. While cleaning the carbine I found the scope would slip front to back rather easy. I don't know if this had any affect on the accuracy but I loaded up some more sabots for another try. I also found that the ram in the bullet seater was actually pushing on the plastic sabot and not the bullet and I was wondering if it might be deforming the plastic fingers. I made another ram just for the sabots. I also will try using my mini-whisper Tok rifle I got from Marty. It's a proven shooter although my ability is still in question. this carbine has the scope mounted on the flat top receiver not the carry handle.

I got to run the sabots through a chrony yesterday and got an average of 2288fps with a high of 2296. I was hoping the velocity would have been much higher –– maybe another powder would help. I was able to just get all of 20 rounds, minus 3 flyers, into a 1" square target box at 50 yards. This is definitely not target ammo. I had found that the bullet ram in the Tok bullet seater was actually pushing on the sabot, not the bullet, and may have been bending the sabot fingers. I made a new ram for the Tok bullet seater that pushed on the bullet only and it did seem to help. I had wanted to try the sabots in the Tokarev for a long time and I'm glad I tried it but I think I'm finished with this little "Wild Hair" project.