Thanks for all this great information.  I just became a member but have been keeping up with this thread for a while.  I ended up buying a Tacsol (gasp) but it shoots awesome and I love it.  I've never had this much fun with a gun and been able to afford to shoot as much as i have been lately!

I have been trying some of the ammo that works good for you with similair results.  When i do my part .25 5 shots everytime at 25 yds.  I'm not capable of much better and neither is my cheap 10yr old tasco (gasp).  I can't remember if you have tried it yet but CCI green tag works best for me so far.  I thought one group was off the paper because i couldn't see more than one hole (my tasco was fogging up).  5 shots one hole (not one large hole).  

Keep up the good work! its nice to read good factual posts and not just hearsay.

Reprint of my TacSol M4 Reports in another post that will eventually slide into the depths of
forgotten posts.


I didn't really know which upper was coming in, the M4 or the LW (Light Weight)
All I said was, "Surprise Me".  Nice Surprise....

I'm impressed with the packaging to start with. UPS wasn't able to destroy the contents
as they often do. This is my first look at the internals of TacSol's Upper. They had a complete
rifle at Shot Show 09 but I wasn't about to ask if I could disassemble it. It was given away to some
lucky person there, I believe.

Basically, this upper is an M4 look alike or clone in 22 LR. My biggest shock was the bolt
assembly. It looks solid enough to be used on an M1 Abrams Tank. I'm in Awe. Stainless and
tool steel, extremely heavy duty. Totally different design than I'm used to. What is normally a barrel
collar and feed ramp is part of the barrel. This makes the bolt assembly more traditional. Possibly
much easier to clean since you don't have to hold the bolt back with one hand while cleaning the
bolt face and feed ramp area. Big, Big Shock.

The charging handle has an extended latch, Cool. The forward handguard is the smaller
carbine style. So it's not like gripping a football of the standard M4 Monster. A1 Flash Hider,
KISS for better accuracy... Somebody slipped a 15 round magazine in the box too....

I don't normally do catalogs but by chance I opened the one they enclosed. If some of the
wild colors in there don't grab you, nothing will. I wish I'd a catalog like this when I was
a kid, right about this time of year too.... Wish my Grandson lived closer so he and I could
look at it and make plans of what we want for Christmas.................

The upper also comes with a nice Instruction Sheet:  Installation, Dissassembly, Cleaning &
Reassembly covering the M4, LT and MC Models. On the back, there's a state by state firearm
warning, mainly for the protection and welfare of children around firearms. Good, Good, Good.

Well guys, I have to go clean and inspect this to see if I can find anything cool hidden anywhere....

Too bad it came in to late to hit the range tonight.. And, it's closed tomorrow. And my Brother from
Texas just got here to see my other Brother that's in the Hospital. Will I ever get to shoot this?







I fired Federal Bulk, Winchester 333 and CCI Standard Velocity. Some of you had asked me to try a
lower with a reduced power spring for the hammer. Well, 10% failure to go bang with Federal Bulk,
7% failure with Winchester 333 and 3% failure with CCI Standard Velocity.. That has nothing to do
with the Tactical Solutions Upper, It worked flawlessly. I even tried the unmodified BDM Drum again,
I mixed the ammo to see if I could cause a failure to feed. Some didn't go bang but it fed perfectly..
The drum is now being built, modification incorporated.


Finally, I did a pinwheel of targets, 4 orange dots with Winchester 333 and 4 with CCI SV.
The target that I stuck in the upper left was with Federal Bulk. I pealed it off another target and
stuck it here. Unbelievably, it measures about 3/8" CTC. Don't get to excited, the others
that I fired with Federal averaged over a half inch. Nearer 5/8" average. Winchester average
CTC 9/16" and CCI average CTC was 7/16".

Considering that I was using the same $25.00 4x scope I had used with Spike's Green Mountain
Upper. The crosshairs all but cover the orange dot at 25 yards. I believe some accuracy can
be gained by putting a better scope in place. One with much finer crosshairs...

I also believe that this upper would gain some accuracy with the use of a more consistent ammo.
CCI Green Tag, Federal Ultra Match, Wolf MT? As with Spike's Green Mountain, I don't believe you'll
do many 5 shot 1/4" groups,

I looked back at the tests I ran on the Spike's GM and I see very similar results with the Federal Ammo.
That puts these 2 up head to head. I couldn't predict the outcome of a direct match between the 2..
Neither will win at a world match, both are absolutely "Kick Ass" better than plinkers.

If I had the time and money and this was the only 22 upper I had, I bet I could find a scope, ammo, target
and the right conditions to strangle that 1/4" boundary for 5 shots groups @ 25 yards.... May not break it
but push it very hard.

Clean up was a breeze, The bolt assembly being free from the use of a barrel collar actually speeds
things up a bit. All Good, Nothing at all negative found with this upper....... For what it is, where it's normally
priced and the high quality precision parts that Tactical Solutions uses, it's a great buy.....

At $499.00 plus shipping that BDM has them for right now, it's an Unbelievable Deal.

SpecOps-13




]


I ran a little test yesterday between the TacSol M4 and the Spike's Green Mountain M4.
I did a lot of shooting with each, using the same lower to keep things as equal as possible.

If I take the averages for the 2 targets below, it comes out in favor of the TacSol by 0.087
Based solely on the max center to center of the 2 worst hits or overall group size. or about
1/12". That could be attributed to human error. However, it is consistent. Each rifle may have
a different preference in ammo that would make it perform better. I can only shoot what I can
find. I did fire some 22 match pistol ammo from  CCI and Eley but it didn't perform well at all.
From rifle to rifle the groups actually went in favor of Spike's Green Mountain. Grouping was
very bad with this type of ammo and more in the neighborhood of 1". As bad as bulk ammo

To me I didn't get conclusive results as to which is more accurate even though it appears
that the TacSol M4 won.

The groups were fired at 25 yards.

Spec

PS: I reinstalled a full power hammer spring for this and had no ammo fail from light hits.

So can I expect accuracy that will keep me on clay pigeons at 25 and 50 yards with a conversion kit and a 1in7" barrel?

my good friend was testing ammo in his colt 6920 with a ceiner conversion at the same time i was testing ammo in my TacSol upper.  His has a 1-7 twist.  With the ammo it liked he was getting 1'' 5 shot groups at 50yds consistantly.  I know it really liked Rem Subsonic but i can't remember what else it liked.  I think the worst he got that day was like 3.5'' groups out of the 8 kinds he tried.  He was around 2.5 with Fed 550 and around an inch with CCI mini mag RN.  We both still need to try the Aguila 60gr SSS.  I predict good things for him.

   I have owned an Olympic Arms 17/22 partner dedicatd upper for over three years now

 and I can't say enough good about it. It is the most accurate rimfire I own out of seven.

 It will eat anything thing you run through it from Walmart bulk to match. I got mine way before Blackdog

 started mags for it and had to use the crappy mag adapter. Now it  is my favorite gun hands down.

 You can not go wrong by getting one. Shooting the 17 mach II is a blast in itself. Turtles and snakes don't

 stand a chance.

Will the Spike's dedicated collar work with my standard CMMG drop in kit for the .223?
I am making a pistol and have a dedicated barrel so I need the collar and a plug for my lower.
Spike's is the only place i have seen that has both but im not sure if its what i need.
thanks for any help.

I ordered a CMMG stainless conversion kit and finally took it out to the range with my daughter on Saturday. I was hoping it would get my girl shooting the ARs. She has hesitated in the past, intimidatedby the muzzel blast and "recoil".  It was great, before we left she was shooting mags full of 223 downrange. 1/9" Delton lightweight chrome lined with an EOTECH supported over the top of my toolbox with a rifle case for padding. It did not burp, hiccup, or fail in anyway for about 350 rounds. Accuracy was better than I expected with ammo it like. It shot about 3/4" for Eley Black Box SA 10 rounds, 0.88" for 10 rounds of SK standard plus at 25 yards. Bulk pack Federal and Winchester Dynapoints both shot around 2") It function with everything I threw at it, SK subsonics,  RWS Rifle Match, SK Standard plus, Eley black box, Golden Eagle HV, Fiochi M320 (1.32" for 10) and some others I am sure I forgot.

Point of impact was a little low, but it was a blast kicking pine cones around.  At 50 yards it gave a 3.1" at 50 yards for 10 shots

I am now thinking dedicated upper....ya'll are bad influences

Well, I finally ran into the ".22 conversion kits and chrome bores = poor accuracy.  I've used my .22 conversion kits in several ARs, all with 1 turn in 9" barrels.  The latest one has a chrome bore and the groups with the Federal 550 round boxes and the Reminging Golden Bullets were disapointing today.  I'm not giving up, just going to try some different brands of .22 ammo.

Definately try more ammo. My bushy chrome lined will hover at an inch at 60 yds (my zero) with its favorite bulk ammo.  My friends colt chrome lined is about the same with the ammo it likes at 50 (not bulk).  

The only reason I got a dedicated upper was because shooting the conversion was so much fun I never wanted to stop, but cleaning took so long I never wanted to start.  My dedicated upper is super easy to clean.  

I bet my conversion could give my tacsol a good run with bulk ammo.  It loved the rem gold bullet and my upper can't stand it.  I meant to do this comparison a while ago but funds have been low so range time has been short.

I might be able to do it over thanksgiving break if i get lucky early and find that buck i've been looking for.  I spent 16 hrs in the woods in 2 days last time i went home with no luck.  Looks like i'm gonna have to change something up or hope the rut has hit harder by now.

Whether the Spikes collar fits the dedicated barrel or not depends on the barrel.  Spikes collar is .500 and I would assume the barrel diameter is around .490.  I bought a CMMG collar which is .460 and CMMG dedicated 22 barrels are .450 diameter.  As far as I know Model 1 sales collars are the same size as Spikes at .500.  Its my understanding a Spikes  collar will fit with a CMMG or Ciener  bolt/conversion.  The Kuhel 2nd generations barrels are also the same size as Spikes and Model 1.  To change from chamber insert to the barrel collar just pull the bolt to the rear and spread the rails enough to slip the chamber insert forward and out,  be careful with the bolt as its has spring pressure on it.  

Shot my Spikes dedicated upper today for the first time. Had one FTE in about 200 rounds of misc, largely older, ammo I had lying around. Shot around 1" groups in very informal plinking at 50ft. Lower was a RRA with a standard mil-spec type trigger/hammer and a spring kit. I'm very pleased.

Modification and Re-Post of 2 threads so we won't lose the info..
I'll add further info that I believe to be pertinent as the original posts
progress and are still active......

Tactical Solutions M4 Upper, 50 yard Accuracy:

I did some sighting in for a while trying out the new rest that I made.
I used CCI Standard Velocity.

The shooting  benches were a little warped so I tried to bungee the rest to
the table, Fiasco..  I'm making some adjustable rubber feet that I think will help
next time I go. I did manage to get a few groups that I don't feel were bad for
50 yards. I ended up using some 50 foot Small Bore Rifle Targets because they
had a good number of centers on them. I still ended up with time to goof off before
time to go down range and put up a new target. Guess I'm used to shooting too fast.
The better ones are shown below. Once I get my rifle rest squared away, maybe I
won't be embarrassed to show the whole panel of 11. Right now it's like pulling teeth
with a crane. Major operation to get and keep it all aligned.

Wolf MT Groups are just over an inch worst CTC.
The CCI Green Tag groups are all a tiny bit over 5/8".
It really likes the scarcest ammo I have....

The targets are the same size in both pictures, I didn't downsize the top one as much as
the bottom set. The line in the last of 3 centers is actually a tear that was folded up when
I took the picture.

Not bad at all for an entry level upper. Now on sale several places for $499.00 + shipping, or not.









Spike's Lothar Walther initial 50 yard report:

I used standard 50 yard Small Bore Rifle Targets for this.

Time, Frustration and Ammo were all factors that made me give up on shooting
the second Lothar Walther M4. I always over plan to do too much and then can't
for whatever the reason. It's easier to just stop than "Stroke Out" over it.
I'm working on that.

It was requested that I shoot a 10 shot group at 50 yards. the higher the number
of rounds fired, the better the chance I'll screw it up. I fired 5 groups on a 50
Yard Small Bore Rifle Target and picked the best one to show. I'm a tight wad on
the Match Ammo, it's been so hard to find. I'll do some further 50 yard and 100
yard shooting once I have the rifle rest sorted out.

It's also been suggested since the original post that I take a wide variety of
ammo to test. The more the potential accuracy of a rifle the more picky it will
be about ammo. Even from one distance to another the ammo requirements may
change. I'm still learning new things every day.


Spec

VASCAR2..Thanks for the post regarding the fix on conversions & BDM mags. I recently shot my CMMG .22 cal conversion kit in my DPMS M4 ( first time ). Had similar problems not going into battery some of the time with both BDM mags( I like the "view-thru" ). I had purchased a CMMG mag with the other 2 BDM mags, "just in case". The CMMG mag was flawless, & I was wondering what the problem was. I will check using your method in the next few days....must be a similar problem.
Will update the post later.....thanks again................"G"

I was using a spike's tactical conversion with BDM Mags

I fired about one full mag into each target.  So that is about 25-27 rounds at 25 yards.  The top 2 targets are CCI Standard Velocity in the paper packs bought at Dick's Sporting Goods.  The bottom 2 targets are Federal Bulk Lightning bought at Walmart.

For the top left target, the first 10 shots were very good, almost hitting in the same spot.  Then I got lazy and so the group started spreading out.  I am not that great of a shot, so others could probably shoot better.  

The bullseye ring is 1 inch in diameter.  Each subsequent ring is 1/2 inch.

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7120/img10261.th.jpg

Great thread.  I'm just now looking into a conversion or dedicated upper and was wondering if you've tested CMMG dedicated uppers?  Did I miss it and if so which page is it?  If not will you be testing in the future?

I mentioned that 10 shot groups were hard to do. Then I totally overlooked posting this 5 shot group
that I did at 50 Yards with the Lothar Walther Bull. There were several 5 shot groups that
weren't bad until I added 5 more hits. I left this one at 5 because I didn't want to ruin it. It was the
best of all groups that I fired at the same time I did the 10 shot group above. The way Redtazdog
and I are in this competition between ourselves, 5 shots don't count.. But it was a nice group none
the less. My Blonde.....

This was with Wolf MT.....I'm not totally competent with this On Target Software so, Approximately those measurements

Spec

Have been looking here and RFC, found plenty of stories about issues and fixes but this was a rough day.  Like using a single shot.  "Fire, Stop, Remove mag, Pull bolt, Remove shell, Replace mag, etc,...
I have a Ciener conversion in a S&W M&P 15T.  New rig only about 500 rnds of .223 and 450 of .22  The rig hits very well (probably better than I am capable of)  with Walmart/Remington bulk pack Golden bullet.
Jams are the same with Ciener mags or BDM and most of the jams look like they are going straight up into the space between the charging handle and the spring guide on top of the bolt, getting smashed into the end of the gas tube.  I try to keep it clean and lube with Mobile 1.  It doesn't matter if it is fresh or filthy started with the first shot today.  I thought it would get better after "break in" but is 450 enough of a honeymoon?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PB295050.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PB295051.jpg

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http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/TARGET31oct09-20001.jpg

If a rifle fails to eject a spent brass and it goes up instead of out can sometimes be attributed to magazines or bolt speed.  I'd try firing the rifle and see if the closing bolt catches the fired case with no magazine in the rifle.  If it doesn't it could be the extracted case is coming into contact with the lips on the mag.  I had one BDM mag where I had to lower the left side of the mag as it was a little taller than the right side.  I also had to use needle nose pliers to adjust my 10 round ciener mags.  Its also possible the hammer spring is to strong and has to much resistance for the recoiling bolt to let the extracted round to clear before starting to close.    If you don't see any clearance issues between the bottom of the bolt and the hammer, bolt catch or magazines you may need a reduced power hammer spring or a lakeside spring kit.   The lakeside spring kit includes a hammer spring, disconnector spring and three recoil springs so you can cut one recoil spring to work with your ammo.   If the rifle functions without a magazine in place I'd try shooting the rifle with one or two rounds in the mag to see if it still functions.  Sometimes the upward pressure on the bottom of the bolt from the mag is enough to cause function problems until the kit wears in or the springs are changed or adjusted.   With your kit being new this may not be a problem but worth checking.  In 22 conversions and dedicated uppers it helps functioning if an unfired cartridge will slide out of the chamber when the muzzle is raised.  Its possible the chamber adapter is out of spec or dirty.  If an unfired cartridge is sticky I use flitz polishing compound on a barrel mop with an electric drill on moderate speed to polish the chamber.   Its amazing how a Ciener will be  troubles some then as it polishes it's self up from being shot and starts to work.   Don't give up you can probably sort it out.

Thanks again VASCAR2;
You get around like my ex wife.

texasgiant1959: Walmart/Remington bulk pack Golden bullet. Most unreliable rounds in a Ciener.
What VASCAR2 said could be the problem especially if it's happening with the CCI Rounds. But
I'd do a permanent change to Federal bulk or even better, CCI of any Long Rifle type. You are getting
some fantastic groups even with the Remington's but trust me they work much more reliably in a 10/22 Ruger..

Spec

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=180291


Updated my range report now with lots of Aguila ammo and some Wolf Match.

Some what of a modified reprint from my post in the standard rimfire forum.

My poor Lothar Walther M4 hasn't been fired in too long.


It did get a new Spike's Lower that has "The Punisher." I picked the lower up at the Tampa Gun Show. It's a Blem???? Really
Cool looking under incandescent lights. It looks Maroon. Under florescent lights it's black?? I built the lower with my spare parts
and ordered 2 DPMS LPK's to build 2 more. The punisher somewhat goes along with the ones I modified and painted on this rifle.
As mentioned, I made the Nasal opening look like the Special Operations Spearhead on them.

Finally got around to updating my BDM Drum too. I never had a problem with it but since Kevin was nice enough
to send the mod parts I figured I better do it before it's next year. The drum comes with these parts installed by the
factory now, mine was an initial release. The drum has worked flawlessly in every rifle I've tried it in. As always BDM
puts out very reliable products. Kevin is continually looking for ways to improve on already great designs. The Cool
Factor of this drum is off the scale. It draws a croud every time I take it to the range. It's convinced several others that
they need to get started into AR-22's.


I picked up the scope at Wally World, it's a $70.00 scope that has impressed the hell out of me. CenterPoint Adventure
Class 4-16x40mm  It's got Standard unlit mil reticule, red or green lit. It has objective adjustment. The windage and
elevation can be adjusted in seconds while shooting and then recalibrated to zero and locked. The mounts are a
little low for my taste but they came with the scope as did the scope caps. I wasn't going to say anything because
you will all probably buy Wally out. It's ok, I went back and bought another so have at it. If it had been handed to me
to Test and Evaluate and had no labels telling me who made it, I would have guessed the cost at about $1000.00.
I'm serious as a Heart Attack.

http://www.crosman.com/optics/riflescopes/adventure/CPA416AORG

Here's how the rifle looks now and the best targets of the morning 12 / 13 2009 using CCI Standard (Left) and CCI Sub Sonic (Right).. 5
Shots @25 yards, the centers are from a standard NRA Official 50 Ft. Small Bore Rifle Targets. The Orange Pasters were my
idea and they worked quite well. Otherwise I couldn't even see the holes. The pasters are the size of a nickel. Damn tight group for CCI Std.

Finally made it back to the range.  Had a good day on paper but as with so many other things that look good on paper...
Puts them right where I want them, the pictured target is 50 yards! And I was not working for trophy hits I just wanted it to work.  
But it is like shooting a single shot bolt action.  Since my last post about this I have worked over the bolt with extra fine valve grinding compound.  Ran another 150 rounds in it today(very long tedious day of plucking jams and hand feeding.)
I could not get it to fire 2 consecutive rounds all day, something is very wrong.  H E L P !  These pics are from before cleaning and I noticed some things.
It looks like there is gas escaping around the outside of the part that fills where the .223 shell goes.  many of the jams go up into the gas tube area.
Everyone of them was caught by the bolt on its way forward and the next round was well on it way into the chamber, like the fired case can't get out of there fast enough.  I worked the inside of the chamber with compound on a tight patch in a drill.  I have also eliminated the mag as a potential hang up, it jams if I load and fire with the mag out!  The scuffs inside the charging handle are from shells jamming up there and not the bolt.  Could the return spring (that feels heavy to me) be running the bolt back into battery faster than the shells can get kicked out by the ejector?  I also used a variety of ammo and got the same result.
Thanks.
Paul.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/TARGET19DEC090001.jpg

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I think you've eliminated several potential problem areas texasgiant1959.  If your running a standard AR hammer and hammer spring and your sure the bolt is not dragging on the hammer or bolt stop I'd start cutting coils off the recoil spring.  I bought a spring kit from Lakeside a few years ago and that finally made my Ciener reliable.  If I were you I'd consider buying the Lakeside spring kit from Black Dog Machine as this spring kit comes with a hammer spring, disconnector spring and three recoil springs if remember correctly.  The lakeside spring kit is a very worthwhile investment and BDM is having a sale if your in need of magazine or other parts.  I can't see it from your pictures but I'd also look the ejector which is on the rail on the opposite side of the ejection port.  This small  metal ejector needs to have a good level straight edge edge.  From everything you describe it really sounds like there is insufficient bolt speed.  If you do cut the recoil spring I'd try it on the range.  I'd cut 2 or 3 coils and fire 1 round with no magazine in the rifle.  If the rifle fired and ejected I'd try 1 round with the mag in place.  If it then jammed I might cut a couple more  more coils.  I then shoot it with 1 round and no mag.  If it functioned I'd try 1 round with the mag in place.  If it ejected with the mag in place I'd try loading 1 round from the mag then firing.  If the rifle cycles fine then I'd try loading a couple of rounds and see if the rifle started cycling.  I also prefer to modify or adjust the cheapest part in the event I go to far.  Don't get stressed out I think you can still get this thing to work with some patience.  Your groups look pretty good and I can't see anything obviously wrong on  the chamber insert.  It appears the extractor is nestled in the side of the chamber adapter extractor notch.  Are you able to pull fired or unfired cartridge out the chamber using the charging handle to retract the bolt?  If the conversion won't extract a round while pulling the charging handle you may have a bad or improperly shaped extractor.  Just so happens Black Dog Machine sells higher quality extractors and firing pins for the Ciener/CMMG conversion kits.  If I was buying the Lakeside spring kit I definitely would buy a spare extractor and firing pin.   I fire a lot of rounds in my 22's and I've gone through (broken) several firing pins on my Ciener conversion.  The next firing pins I buy will be from BDM.  Maybe this will give you a couple more ideas sorry I got long winded.

"From everything you describe it really sounds like there is insufficient bolt speed."- VASCAR2

Are you sure that wouldn't be to fast for the spent shell to get out?
There is some dirt on the corner of the ejector but other than that it looks good and the extractor plucks them from the chamber well.
I have also run it bone dry and wet, all the same.
Thanks and I will start chopping on the spring soon.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p187/TEXASGIANT1959/GUN%20STUFF/PC195090.jpg

Looking at your picture texasgiant1959 there appears to be a little junk on the front inside corner of the ejector but I think that it would probably wipe off and not effect functioning.  If the bolt is moving to slow it doesn't fling the spend cartridge out of the way before the next round in the mag comes up.  Its also possible the bolt is moving to slow and its not giving the spent case an insufficient  whack from the ejector to fling the brass out of the action before the bolts starts going forward thereby catching the spent brass causing a stove pipe.  This is also why the round is bouncing up into the charging handle area if the mag is out of the gun.  As an example if you pull the charging handle slowly the round will kind of hang in the chamber opening whereas if you pull the charging handle briskly the cartridges gets flung out the centerfire AR 15 fast and hard.  It appears you have two options,  change hammer spring to a lighter hammer spring or cut the length on the conversion kit recoil spring.  It would be interesting to see how your kit worked in someone else rifle.    If it were a CMMG bolt I'd tell you to contact them.  From appearance this is a Ciener conversion bolt and you've probably heard about Ciener's lack of customer service.   Just my luck but every Ciener conversion I've been around I either had to work on the conversion kit or the magazine to get it where it would half way work.  We got a Mini 14 conversion kit which was so bad we sent it back to Brownell's.   I've helped my friend work on three different Ciener Glock kits and finally got them to where they will work well enough not to be considered as a paper weight.  I've been around 6 different Ciener AR 15 conversions and we either had to work on magazine or the kits themselves to get them to work.  A buddy has a gun shop and has sold about 15 CMMG kits and we haven't ever had anyone complain about them not working.  Every CMMG or Spikes kit has worked great for me out of the box.  I know Ciener's can be found cheaper but sometimes you get what you pay for.  I'm not condemning you for trying to get this conversion to work I'm just telling you I've been there and invested a lot of time and money to figure out how to make the most of these kits.  If you can get Cieners  to work you can usually use them for quite some time before a part breaks.  Hang in there.

thanks again for the honest insight.  In another time I may have seen this all the way to the end just to see if I could but I would rather spend the time money and effort on the range.  
Wanna buy a kit cheep?

I got my Ciener AR 15 kit when there really wasn't anything else on the market and just hung in there until I got it to where I could use it.  The only problem I've had in the last few years has been broken firing pins.  I usually try to keep a couple on hand for the AR 15 kit.

Sunday 12/20/2009,,,, Tactical Solutions M4 and Spike's Lothar Walther 18" Bull Barrel, 100 Yard tests.

I ran some new targets off the computer for 100 yards. I'm actually happy that I had time to do that.

At the Dade City Range, I found a 15 to 20 mph wind with gusts to 30 or so. The range sits below
ground level so the wind patterns were totally unpredictable. I took lane 1, close to where the bank
runs most of the way to the target. Except for an area that allows vehicle access to down range.
The light was a mix all the way to the target, caused by the trees on the bank.

I set up for some preliminary testing at 50 yards. Pretty much spray and pray for a while with wind
patterns from Hell. Eventually I got up the energy and decided it was now or never to do 100 yards.
At first I was having to do a hold over of about 8 to 10 inches. Once I got that squared away (Adjusting
the Scopes) most of the standard velocity ammo was in the ball park. One other FOG set up wind direction
indicators that helped estimate when a shot may be half accurate.

I fired on 122 target centers for the 2 rifles, 9 to a sheet for 100 yards. I used a couple 50 yard targets that
have a smaller red center and are 25 to a sheet for less walking. Those were used for 50 yards and sighting
in at 100, none are shown here. I'm still using the 50 foot NRA Small Bore Rifle Target that I copied and modified.
The red area for the 100 yard target measures 1.125" now that it's been copied and reworked so many times.
Less than 5% of the targets weren't to embarrassing to post. I really think 100 yards is a reach for 22's and target
accuracy. But I had to give it a try. I went through 750 rounds of ammo between this M4 and the Lothar Walther
Bull Barrel. Considering the conditions and the distance, I believe the Tactical Solutions M4 did reasonably well
on the few targets that I'm willing to show.

This picture shows the rifle rest that I designed and built. Works pretty well now that I've added adjustable
rubber feet and 3 x 5 lb weights to the bottom to hold it down.

Added: The scope on the Tactical Solutions Upper was set to 10X which is max for the scope.

Tactical Solutions M4


I believe the Lothar Walther pulled one of the 5 shot group from "Far Left Field" given the conditions at the
range. And,,,,, at 100 yards. Everything went dead calm, long enough for me to pull off 5 quick shots.
While I thought about my chances for a 10 shot group, the winds came back.  If I would have attempted
a 10 shot group, it probably would have splattered the last 5 shots. I was tempted but pulled myself back
to reality....  The group is actually better than the one I fired on the last trip @50 yards. "One Chance in a
Billion Group"  Especially with the prevailing conditions. CCI Green Tag is great stuff, there just isn't enough
of it right now..

Added: The scope on the Lothar Walther Upper was set to 14X, which is max for the Scope.

Lothar Walther Bull Barrel


Added: I ran the On Point software 5 times with completely new measurements each time. It came up
with the group being 0.265 Worst Case, Center To Center one time, 0.269 one time and 0.267 three times so I went with the majority..

SpecOps-13

Hello, I'm new to this .22 conversion stuff, and have enjoyed reading this thread. Lot's of good info here.

I just got a CMMG conversion kit to use with my Bushmaster Texas M4 carbine. I purchased the kit from Palmetto State Armory. It fits in my upper receiver like a glove!

I had a chance to try it out earlier today. I used several types of ammo:  Winchester Wildcats, Remington Thunderbolt, Remington High Velocity, and Federal Champion HP. All except the Federal was 40 grain bullets, and the Federal was 36 grain. Accuracy looks to be pretty good, but I was mainly checking for functioning rather than shooting groups.

All ammo types fed and ejected fine, although I found that when manually cycling the bolt the ejector would slip over the rim of an unfired cartridge.

The hammer on my lower is notched, and I noticed that CMMG recommends using a rounded hammer. I did have several misfires with all of the ammo types, maybe this was caused by the hammer. I can see that when the hammer contacts the firing pin the notch in the hammer is just above the center of the pin. I might try installing a rounded hammer to see if it helps. Maybe a rounded hammer will transfer more energy to the firing pin. Has anyone here had problems with the notched hammer?

I can see that shooting cheap .22 ammo is going to be addicting!

cbr: Welcome to ARFCOM. Thanx for the report on all the different ammo.

Notched Hammers: A lot depends on how large the notch in the hammer is,
some will work fine while others will hang up on the bolt and you'll need to open
the upper and lower receivers to get it clear. That would be an all the time thing.
Some will fail to bust the rim hard enough to fire some or all ammo. If you only had
a few that didn't go bang that's fairly normal. If you had quite a few, I would look at
getting a DPMS Style hammer.

Sometimes bulk ammo is just made in a way that it won't go off no matter how many
times it's hit. Federal Bulk has done that to me many times... But it's Cheap.....

AR-22's are Very Addicting...

Last Sunday at the indoor range:

I'd decided that I needed a different scope for shooting 25, 50 and 100 yards. The Pentax I have is a
nice scope but it's a lot of work changing from one range to another or using "Hold Over" for shooting
accurately on paper. Especially when the target centers are just over an inch and a half. I bought 2
Center Point Scopes (Cheap) a few weeks ago. I thought they were 4-14 but I see now that it's a 4-16x40mm.
Not so observant on my part. Any way, I need the Pentax that was on the Lothar Walther Bull Barrel for my
M1A. I think the Center Points were $69.95 + tax each.

While I was at the indoor range, I reset the Pentax at 25 yards and had a friend John shoot the rifle.
He's always around when I'm there but has never fired one of my rifles. He was just totally amazed at
how accurate the Lothar Bull is. He'll be asking me to let him shoot more often I believe.

After he took out the Bulls Eye, I was confident that the Pentax was set and swapped it out with the new
Center Point. For an inexpensive 22 scope it's loaded with features. It comes with Weaver Mount Rings
(That I didn't use, I didn't move the mount I have. No Scratches on this upper), covers and 2 batteries. It
can be used unlit, red or green mil reticule. Elevation and windage are externally adjustable and once
zero is set the caps can be set to correspond and then locked in. It also has an ocular adjustment. Once
I had the scope set up and zeroed at 25 yards, I played around with the elevation to move the hits on the
target. It tracks pretty good. Just a thought for anyone who has too many rifles to put expensive optics
on all of them. Center Point 4-16x40mm Adventure Class at Wally World....

Will it help the accuracy of the Lothar Walther BB, I'm not sure But I'll find out next time I can make it to Dade City.
Hopefully I'll have less wind there.




Happy New Year
Spec

What do you think I should be able to accomplish with a Tac-sol upper
at 50 yards using a just an Aimpoint? From a bench with sandbags I'm
getting around 2.5-2.75 inches for 7 or 10 round groups.






Thanks





+ETA I'm using Federal Bulk.


Also with Remington bulk I get FTFire with the first and sometimes
second round in my mag. Every time. But never after that. I've only
shot a few mags of the Remington though.

Check to see if the bolt is closing all the way when you chamber the first round. If it's not quite closed the firing pin can't get a good hit on the cartridge rim.

If it's not how should I fix this? releasing the charging handle faster? The gun stays pretty clean and I use good lube.





 

Remington Bulk Golden Bullets are the absolute worst choice for AR's.
They work great in my 10/22's but not in my conversions or dedicated
uppers. I'm surprised you had so few failures with them. Stick to Federal
if you want to shoot bulk ammo..

Your group sizes sound about right using low magnification optics
and bulk ammo..


Spec

Cool thanks. I guess I'll save the Remington for the bolt actions. It also runs like crap in my Mosquito. I wonder if picking up a cheap magnifier would tighten my groups up a bit. I'm just not that imressed with 2 or 3 inch groups at 50 yards where there are people who can shoot 1.5 inches at 100 yards with Irons and a 5.56 AR-15. I know that the 22 bulk ammo is junk but maybe I need to get some better stuff.





 

From my experience a red dot scope will not allow me to get the potential accuracy out of a rifle.   Most of my red dots are 5 MOA dot so if I'm thinking clearly I'm covering 2.5" at 50 yards.  The only way I get decent groups is to use black circles of 2.5" at 50 yards.  I then set the intensity of my dot to were I can see the black circle under the dot.  I then lay the red dot to cover the black circle.  I can shrink my groups but I do a lot better using a 9 or 10 power scope with cross hairs on small black square target.  I have a little better luck with my e o tech which has the 1 MOA dot but I really don't use the red dot off the bench for target shooting except when I'm trying to zero my sights and red dot.  I usually zero the irons then put my dot on top of the iron front sight  then make final adjustment on red dot if needed.  I've never used a magnifier but I've used 2 and 4 power red dots but I can't seem to shoot them as well as I can a regular scope with cross hairs.  

I see 6 or 7 red dots when I look through an EOTech or other similar optic. Astigmatism. Weird because it's identical in both eyes. I'm fine for
tactical shooting but I can't use red dots for targets well. With a standard scope I can adjust it to my eyes and see only a single crosshair line.
I have a 3x magnifier and EOTech on my 7.62 X 39 AR but it's for hogs so the range is short here in Florida. I also have a couple "Go To" AR
Carbines that just have EOTechs.

I've found that standard velocity ammo and a scope with 4-10 (Or Higher) x 40mm works well for targets from 25 to 100 yards. Look back to
my post #1683 above. The worst groups that I showed from that day are about 1-1/4" or a little more at 100 yards. A good scope with fine
crosshairs makes a great difference in my shooting.
SpecOps-13

The only reason I'm disappointed with my Red Dot groups is from reading this post from Molon and the groups people got at 100 yards.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=453382



 

Forgetfull: Some people see a lot better than me at 100 yards.. That's all I can offer.....


Following is a condensed reprint from my posts about this pistol in the rimfire section.

Special Thank You to Clint Beyer of Beyer Barrels for making this build possible and to Redtazdog for
doing all of the work from the middle including an incredible packing job on the barrel and collar. USPS
did their part with Priority Mail getting it here. From the Far North West to the Far South East in
only 2 days.

The Barrel is 8", 0.865 ish diameter, between H-Bar and Bull. it has a thread protector in place on the business end
and an extremely well fit dedicated collar on the chamber end. I will probably put the collar on a Ciener Conversion
Bolt. Most of the ones I have are laying dormant lately. The fit and finish of the Barrel assembly is Superb. I don't know
right now if I'll install a muzzle device or leave the thread protector as it is, kinda looks Cool. When installed in the upper
receiver I have coming it should look 6-1/2" or 7" depending on who measures it.

The lower I'm using is a Spike's Tactical Pistol Lower with a few additional accessories from them too. I used a Stark
SE-1 Grip that has a built in Winter Trigger Guard. Standard DPMS Parts Kit. DPMS Captive Hammer and Trigger Pins, EZ-Pull
Pivot and Takedown Pins and an oversized mag button. I'm leaving the buffer tube on for balance.





I got my package from Brownells about 11 AM today..  1/07/2010
1 YHM Diamond Series Carbine Forearm and 1-1/16" ID End Cap. 1 DPMS AR-15 Competition Lo-Pro Upper Receiver.

Nothing special happened during the build but it was a little difficult aligning the rail, anti-rotation screws. I believe that would have been easier if I'd
just aligned it for the gas tube that it doesn't need. I wanted to run the the barrel with just the thread protector but the rail was too long. I added the
Vortex Flash Hider and it just clears the end cap before it opens up. I used the dedicated collar with a Ciener that I has in a storage tube. Very tight
collar to barrel fit after the collar was on the bolt assembly. Nice.........................

Now to decide on a small optic???? And, Shoot It, hoping for this weekend or next Monday Night......

Spec

Reprint from rimfire thread on this subject.
Range today. 1/10/2010 Took CCI Standard Velocity and Mini Mags. Mostly breaking things in not  serious target shooting.
It shows potential even when limited by  1x EOTech, 25 yard targets weren't bad at all. As I've mentioned before
I see a whole lot of dots through a Holographic or Red Dot (Astigmatism). the center group is 5 shots CCI Mini Mag
at 25 yards it measures appx 7/8" worst hit to worst hit. The upper right target is 50 rounds CCI Standard Velocity
at 25 yards and it's appx the same size worst hit to worst hit.

Below is a picture of the Beyer Pistol exactly as fired today.

Insert / Added: 1/11'2010: I found out today that this barrel has a match chamber. With a little ammo change it may be
even more accurate. Next time I go, I'll take Federal Bulk just to have something to run and Wolf Match Target to get an
idea what it may do for group size. I wish I could come up with an LER Magnifying Scope but I hate to steal one off
another rifle or pistol and it's not in the budget.

Spec

has anyone had problems with lead clogging the Gas tube when firing the conversion kit thru a .223 upper?

im debating a Spikes conversion or a dedicated upper..
i have a new spikes stripped lower that is in need of some parts so i might just go ahead with the dedicated uppper.

i also have 2 other AR15s that i could use the conversion in just for plinking.  

You will get a million conflicting opinions on the lead issue. I haven't had any problem but most of the ammo I've fired
through conversions has been copper washed, Federal Bulk.

If your existing rifles are 1:9" or slower twist rate it's worth trying a conversion. If you don't like the results, all you
are out is the chamber adapter's price. you order a dedicated collar and build a dedicated upper for 22's from there.

SOS-13

Added info about the chamber I have with the Beyer Barrel..

Apparently this style "Chamber or Match Chamber" is shorter and tighter than what I would call a
"Sporting Chamber". I thought things needed a little more break in as I was having to manually seat
many of the CCI Rounds. First time I've felt a need for forward assist on a 22. I've never run into a
22 chamber that was this short and tight, I had seen CCI Stingers not run well in several, prior to this.

By setting other brand ammo into the chamber, I've found that Federal Bulk and Wolf MT are a sweet fit.
Several other brands weren't, RWS, Eley MP, CCI anything, weren't. The Beyer Barrels will likely come
standard with a sporting chamber that will accommodate the majority of different 22's. Unless you choose
to get one as tight as mine. I'm going to experiment with this chamber and see what I can do with it... It's an
opportunity for me......

Thats cool i was just wondering..

I ordered a Spikes Tactical Dedicated upper this morning... Cant wait for it to get here..

Ive also been buying Federal red box from walmart like crazy. They are extremely hard to find and the price keeps goin up.
So far ive wiped 4 walmarts clean. Funny thing is, one day i go in there and there are none. next day i go in and they have a few boxes so i buy them. Next walmart is the same way. But i get home and all my boxes have the same Lot number. So i gues they get a shipment about the same time.. Pretty neat.

I also have the centerpoint scope that you used on one of your test..

I IM'd  nonnieselman several days ago and we got his questions answered...

Reprint from Rimfire Thread:

This is the continuation of tests on the 8" barrel that Clint Beyer, Beyer Barrels made up to have me test here on ARFCOM.

I get a few IM's and E-Mails from people who link our tests to other rimfire sites. Thanx for their help getting the word around....

I added a rear sight to the upper so it would eliminate my Astigmatism in the same way that Aperture Shooting Lenses do.
I'm still using a non magnifying EOTech. I consider that a major handicap for this 8" barrel when trying for tight groups. Even so,
it really shot great and the groups weren't bad, everything considered. I fired 250 rounds total today. 7 Failures with 150 rounds
of Federal and 1 failure with 100 rounds of Wolf Match Target. Redtazdog had some concern that the Ciener Bolt may be too
whimpy for this application. I respect his opinion greatly but went ahead and tried it again this week. It seems to be doing fine.
There wasn't an outrageous number of FTF's. The dedicated collar that Clint made for me is almost a press fit, It's tight and takes
some effort to get it off the barrel so the bolt assembly can be taken out. Very Nice and It's gotta help accuracy tremendously.

I took Federal Bulk and Wolf Match Target 22's today, because they fit the tight chamber of this particular barrel perfectly. As I said
before, this barrel was made tight on purpose, for me.  A sporting chamber will fire most any 22 LR round and that's what production
barrels will have unless you request this chamber. I don't believe the sporting chamber will hurt accuracy more than a tiny bit. The 18"
Lothar Walther Bull Barrel that I've been testing for Spike's has a sporting chamber and it has had the best groups I've ever shot with
anything.

I used targets that I re-designed to shoot at 25 yards. Oops, only had 2.. The last target is one that I originally designed for 100
yards. When I made this one up, I really intended to use a magnifying optic with it. No excuses. I'm showing every target that I used
for groups today. Not just the best. Some times I show you the best or the best and worse. It was mentioned the other day about
people coming on ARFCOM and making claims of shooting phenomenal groups all day. I've always tried to show that doesn't happen, even
with the level of effort some of us put into doing just that. It's somewhat like a 300 game at bowling. It just doesn't happen every time.

The top target was with Federal Bulk. Nothing to write home about with an average group size of 15/16" and the best of 13/16".
I used the rest of the Federal to blow the middle out of a target when I finished the group targets. STRESS RELIEF!!!!

The second and third targets were both using Wolf Match Target. 2nd target average Group size was 13/16" and the best group was 7/16"
Oops again, 2 of the centers on the next target were 7 shots. Third target group average was 11/16 with the best group again 7/16" or 0.4375.

I sorta wish this was being tested as a SBR Rifle. It's gonna look strange with a high power scope on it but that's what I'm going to have to do
to do this barrel justice. It's very frigging accurate. I can barely use these targets with no magnification at 25 yards. They're centers are small.

Spec

Thanks!!
My ST parts get here tomorrow!!  

This Thread has been moving up in numbers of people reading it by about 750 to 1000 every week recently.
I don't know if it also registers the count when a visitor or "Lerker" reads it. If anybody gets this far and has
any questions. We're all here to give and receive answers. I personally enjoy helping others, so If anyone has
questions or you thinking of signing up on ARFCOM. I would be happy to offer my help and AR15.com would
be happy to have you join if you haven't already. You can do it for free or you can gain some nice added benefits
with a membership at various levels. Trust me, this site is the biggest knowledge base for much more than just
AR-15's and M16's on the planet. There are more true experts here than is imaginable. A combined total of many
Millions of years experience. I learn new things every day and it's not just from those with years and years of experience.
At times it will be the new guy, with 5 or 10 posts that's just started to learn who can see things so clearly that the rest of us can't.


SpecOps-13 in Florida

Added 1/24/2010
On Subject:
Took Federal load 510. Federal Bulk and Aguila Super Extra 40 Gr. Still have just the EOTech
and rear sight. I tried the ammo statically to be sure it would chamber before I left for the range.
The 510 is identical in size to the Federal Bulk so, No Problem. The Aguila was a little tighter
but went fully into the chamber with little effort.

The Black Dots shown below are are 7/8", I used them as single shot targets just to get an
idea of how to compensate on the standard center without adjusting for each ammo.

The Aguila didn't cycle quite so well when going from the magazine into the chamber.
It would fire one then half chamber the next.  Just a tiny bit of polishing to the ramp and
chamber should clear this up. I continued basically single shot for the Aguila. It showed
great potential and should be a top contender for the most accuracy in this upper after I
do what I mentioned above. The 10 shot group measures 3/4" CTC @ 25 yards. With no
magnification for the EOTech and the way I had to shoot, I think this is fantastic.

Federal # 510 was pretty consistent at being reliable, 50 rounds and 1 that needed to be
busted twice. Not quite as accurate but not bad 7/8 to 1", 5 shot groups. I didn't show all
the targets because they were pretty much the same.


Federal Bulk, I only took 100 rounds as just in case ammo. So I did a 100 round group.
Without the one flier, the group measured 1-5/16" with the flier it's 1-1/2" Not bad at all for
Federal Bulk.

I don't think this 8" barrel will ever be competition for Spike's 18" Lothar Bull but who knows
where this is going to go after a little tweaking and a variable scope. It may be a real surprise.

Spec

Initial reiewTac Sol LT upper

*Update*
Took the TacSol Lt to the range again today, between myself and a co-worker we ran another 323 rounds of winchester 333 bulk pack through it.
So far, 0 failures out of 383 rounds with no cleaning.
Today was mostly just plinking for fun, I didn't have a rest so all shooting was freehand supported and unsupported.
We shot all 323 rounds without a break, one mag after another, did a few mag dumps just for grins and giggles as well.
Pictures aren't the best being from a cell phone. When my camera is available again, i'll get some better pictures.
20rnd group freehand supported @25yd

4 groups @ 25yd,

Hi Guys,

I am new here myself, and have read the posts in this thread with great interest as I am currently trying to decide if I should buy a dedicated 22lr upper, an M&P 15-22, or a Ciencer type conversion kit.   I have found the information in this thread very informative, thanks (especially Spec-Ops-13).

I am primarily looking at a 22 upper for inexpensive practice (I shoot 3-gun), and for some plinking/fun shooting.   AR types are restricted here in Canada, so it cannot be used for hunting.   I guess I will be shooting a considerable ammount of ammo, I usually go through 500 rounds or so when I shoot my 'less fun' .22's, so the AR will probrably get hammered, especually by the kids.   My 'big' AR has irons, so any dedicated upper will also be plane jane as well.

I am considering buying a used DPMS dedicated .22 upper and dropping this on my Eagle Arms lower.   Has anyone any experience of the DPMS upper?   Will it take BDM mags?

I had discounted a Ceiner type conversion because of tales of woe I had read regarding fouling in the gas tube of my .223 upper (I have a Stag Model 3H).   Am I right to be concerned about this, or will a good blast with 223 Ball clean the gunk out?

Should I just bite the bullet and get an M&P 15-22?   The cost of the DPMS upper is about $200 Canadian less than the M&P 15-22, that retails for $575 pluss tax up here.

Cheers in advance for any advice.

Fingers