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Posted: 1/20/2006 9:37:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 1:29:56 PM EDT by backbencher]
Folks -

Slowly building a SA A3 clone for increased trigger time before I deploy, but have gotten sidetracked b/c the gift lower is stripped, ie documented as a pistol :) To jump through the recommended hoops, intend to build it as a straight-pull bolt action pistol 1st. Given the cartridge base similarity of 9mm & .223, can I build a 9mm locked breech straight-pull bolt action pistol? Here are the parts I've got:

Stag "pistol" lower
unknown A2 upper (no, I'm not going to use it to defend my home & family, that's the Glock)
full length rifle buffer tube & buffer from Model 1 Sales
Model 1 Sales lower parts kit
M-16 bolt from dang I've already forgotten their name (no, really, I did)

1st - will a .223 bolt (.378" base) feed a 9mm (.394" base)?
2nd - can I screw a standard .223 bbl extension to a 9mm bbl so my M-16 bolt will lock up?
3rd - anyone have any idea if standard Colt/Oly mag setups would feed this infernal compromise, or would I have a single shot 9mm bolt gun? (Which is still ok if cheap enough)

Question: Why are you doing this?
Answer: B/c I think (warning: Texas Aggie) I need to build a pistol 1st to preserve the "pistolness" of the lower receiver
AND
9 mm would be a good caliber, cheaper than .223 to feed
AND
I can't afford another $200 bolt
AND
it would be very very unique :)

Gig 'em,

PO2 backbencher USNR
(Ieted 4 spalink)
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:55:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 8:59:04 PM EDT by GS1000SN]
Sorry, but the 223 and 9mm work on entirely different princples. The 223 works on gas impengement where the 9mm works on recoil. The 9mm does not use the barrel extension, bolts are different, and don't use a m-16 bolt in any Non-NFA rifle unless it has been cut (milled out) to semi dimensions(and 223 bolts are entirely different from the 9mm bolt).
Making a straight pull 9mm would require some type of bolt lock where simply removing the gas tube from the 223 would make it a straight pull (charging handle required to cycle the action for each shot) type action.

You are correct that to preserve the "pistol" status of a virgin receiver, the first build must be a pistol configuration but don't use a full length rifle buffer tube(I believe this is also a no-no as it gives one the ability to shoulder the weapon)

I think I answered some of your questions but I am no expert. Free advice is worth what you pay

I should have said that if you have a full machine shop, anything is possible!
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 2:44:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 2:45:17 AM EDT by ACR26]
Straight Pull 9mm works :-

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=5&t=219467

For some of us, it is the only way
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 1:17:21 PM EDT by ODA_564]
backbencher

Are you in the US? Where?

I ask because it appears your supposition is that because the receiver was listed on the 4473 as a 'pistol' receiver it can't be built into a rifle.

Unless you live in a state / city that has gun registration and the lower is registered as a pistol (i.e., registered as a functioning pistol), there is no problem.

'A pistol can become a rifle, but a rifle can't become a pistol' (especially true if the receiver has never been built up). Think about a Thompson-Center Contender. The TC pistol can be used with a carbine stock and a longer barrel, but you can't cut the stock off a NEF break-open and cut the barrel down to 6" without doing a Form 1 for an "Any Other Weapon".

The reason people worry about having their AR receiver documented on the 4473 (which you don't get a copy of and BATFE has to get from the FFL) is because they are concerned that some BATFE agent will hop up and claim they converted a 'rifle' to a 'pistol' (easy to do with an AR receiver, even if it was sold as a complete gun). This is overkill worrying.

If this was a real problem, the BATFE would be raiding everyone with a Mech-Tech carbine conversion unit - where you take a 1911 or Glock PISTOL RECEIVER and plug it into a unit with a rifle barrel and stock immediately converting a "pistol" (receiver) into a "rifle".

Just build a rifle.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:16:13 PM EDT
GS1000SN, ODA_564,

Some information on this board contradicts your info on the the availability of M-16 bolts and use of full length buffer tube. As I don't have a gas system @ this point, BATFE is gonna have a hard time claiming I'm building a machine gun. Given that a straight pull 9mm would require a bolt lock, ummm, wouldn't the existing locking system of the .223 bolt be perfect?

My supposition is that virgin receivers can be built into rifles, but to preserve their "pistolness", a virgin receiver must be built into a pistol 1st before being "deflowered" into a rifle. Chicken blood must be sprinkled over the receiver before the 1st firing, which must take place at the full moon.

ACR26, while I was working for my uncle, I got the shotgun license application from the very nice folks down @ Boss. Just wanted to thank y'all for the hard work of your troops, & loved the video.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:53:57 PM EDT
Post pictures when you complete it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:13:46 AM EDT
backbencher

Do you want / need a rifle right now (for the reason given in your post), or do you want to build a pistol?

You are swirling over things that make no practical sense. You want to build a rifle because you want a rifle to train with before you deploy, but you want to be able to build a pistol from that receiver later? So you want to build it as a straight -pull 9mm pistol, then somehow document that so you can rebuild it as an AR 5.56mm rifle, then "restore" it to a pistol because you want to preserve the "pistolness" of the receiver?

Sorry, but that's... crazy talk. You're going to install a pistol barrel with no gas system on your rifle upper, then change it to a rifle barrel with a gas system then back to a pistol barrel with no gas system? What happens if you bugger up the receiver doing this? Murphy happens.

Install a pistol buffer tube on your receiver, then take it off and install a rifle / carbine buffer tube and then take that off and install a pistol buffer tube? What happens when you strip the receiver buffer tube threads? Or crack the receiver extension? Murphy happens.

It would be cheaper to buy two guns before all was said and done. Do you need a pistol or rifle right now?

Receivers cost about $100-200 dollars. Build a rifle to do what you want prior prior to deployment, then save some money while deployed, buy a receiver and build a pistol when you get back.

If money is that tight and will be that tight while deployed and after, well, then that's another story.

Its a frickin' receiver. It can be built as either one. Its not made of unobtainium.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:55:08 AM EDT
Actually, for far-less than the cost of all the parts you're going to need for to 'preserve the pistolness' of your Stag Arms "pistol" receiver, you could buy a "rifle" lower....

Here

or Here

Even with a transfer through your local FFL, that would be less expensive than buying a 9mm barrel; re-barreling your current upper (assuming you already have the tools - receiver block, barrel wrench); buying a 9mm bolt, fabricating a way to lock the bolt (9mm ARs are blowback) and making it a straight pull action; and buying a pistol buffer and buffer tube.

Link Posted: 1/25/2006 6:11:45 AM EDT
Oda,

I'm aware of the cost concerns. I've got a post in the equipment exchange solicitating any bbl. But if I HAD to buy new to make my gun a pistol, why not in 9mm? When I build my rifle, I'm gonna have a 20" 1/7 5.56 bbl, so why not have a pistol bbl that's different?

As to a pistol buffer, I don't need one. I already have a rifle buffer tube installed, and according to posts on this board quoting letters from the BATFE, I don't need a pistol or carbine length buffer tube. I just need to not order my buttstock until I get my 16"+ bbl in.

If I bugger up the receiver, then it happens. I've got a bbl wrench, and one of the attractive attributes of the AR system is that you can change bbls @ home. I'm not going to buy a new receiver every time I want a different caliber when all I need is a different bbl.

As you can see from threads on this board, not all 9mm AR's are blowback. I was asking if there was an inexpensive way to do it - apparently not. It was worth a shot to ask. I'll just build a straightpull AR pistol in .223 from a used bbl & saw it off where I see fit.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:26:20 AM EDT
Oda,

Just managed to beat the cost for a new receiver.

$20 for Stag's certificate of virginity
$45 for a used 24" bbl w/out FSB
$10 shipping to swap 24" for 16" dissy w/ FSB, no gas block
$1.34 for misc postage of postal MO

$76.34, just under your $75 for nicked receiver + FFL transfer. And I could've done it for $65 + 1 hacksaw blade.

Will post pics once I settle on a host service - any ideas? Especially want to post pic of flare out of top of bbl :)

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:16:04 PM EDT
GS1000SN,

Finally, here are the blurry camera phone pics of the Stag .223 straight pull bolt action pistol:



Muzzle brake port (gas port to dissy owners)



Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 9:23:23 AM EDT
I thought you were doing a straight pull 9mm
That was the reason I said you would need to lock up the bolt, because they are recoil activated and do not use the rotating lock bolt of the .223.
To make a straight pull .223, all you need to do is eleminate the gas system.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 10:37:32 AM EDT
GS1000SN,

Folks in this thread said it couldn't be done, and I figure it can't be done as cheaply as I wanted to document a pistol. I'm talking to a barrelsmith right now about making one, but he's not gotten back to me yet. If I do it, initially it will be a single shot. I may be sniffing round for a used 9mm bbl to thread for a bbl extension shortly.

Gig 'em,

backbencher
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 8:56:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:45:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 10:47:53 AM EDT by Green0]
He's got a point- if you want to train shelve the pistol idea and get a std 5.56 upper if you haven't allready got one.

Grab several cases of Wolf 55grain ammo at the lowest price you can find (by volume that should be possibly even below $100 a thousand).

Train. I would reccomend five thousand rounds right and left hand if your budget allows. get a single point sling with no-gunsmithing bolt on attachment (AKA tango down) and train to a point where you are proficient at manipulating the safety right and left handed- keeping trigger finger out of the well etc, pieing corners (as in like a corner of a city block) right and left handed, and transitioning latterally from target to target (this is a big deal left handed as you may find it easy to bring up the rifle on a single target but may not be able to transition laterrally from target to target with the same ease. Emphasys should be on speed over precision (you need to be able to hit a target under 50yds in under a second. Actual time needed might be 1/3-1/2 second)

It's my opinion that being able to shoot left handed, having a sling that allows easy shoulder transition [single point] Could potentially save your life in the right situation- or at least keep you from getting shot.
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