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Posted: 12/29/2005 2:13:17 PM EDT
OK, I have been dreaming a bit lately and I came up with this. What about an AR-15 chambered for 9x23 Winchester? With a 10 to 12 inch barrel it would have some awesome ballistics. I could use standard 9mm parts except barrel and maybe magazines (I have to look into the magazine issue a bit more).

Would that gun rock or what! It could push a 124 grain bullet at like 1900 to 2200 fps at the muzzle.

Who is a good choice for custom barrels and who could make a 9x23 chambered barrel?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:42:57 PM EDT
Don't know about the barrel, but what about the 9X25 Dillon. I know the double tap ammo smokes out of a 1911. (10mm necked to 9)
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:09:57 PM EDT
9x23/38 Super Comp falls into the same catagory as the 38 Super... only way to feed it is Sten mag, as cartridge OAL is similar to that of the 45acp @ 1.270" MAX.. Sten mag is 9mm (1.169" max OAL).

You would most likely need to use FP bullets to hold the OAL down. I have not tried it with the mags I have. The 9x23/38 Super Comp would stack a whole lot better in the mag, as opposed to the weeee little rim on the 38 Super.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
9x23/38 Super Comp falls into the same catagory as the 38 Super... only way to feed it is Sten mag, as cartridge OAL is similar to that of the 45acp @ 1.270" MAX.. Sten mag is 9mm (1.169" max OAL).

You would most likely need to use FP bullets to hold the OAL down. I have not tried it with the mags I have. The 9x23/38 Super Comp would stack a whole lot better in the mag, as opposed to the weeee little rim on the 38 Super.



We're still trying to finish the mag adapter that allows you to use Ppsh43 mags, which are made for 7.62 x 25. Those will afford double stack capability for the 9 x 23

9 x 25 is based off 10mm and would require a modified 45 ACP mag, or the same Ppsh mags
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:15:29 AM EDT
Why not just use a 9mm/.355 projectile loaded into a 5.56mm case? This has been done before and works well. Another option would be to use an elongated straight walled version of a 5.56 case and again merely load a .355 projectile in it. Again, I beleive that this or something quite similiar has been done before.

Tsh77769
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 8:04:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tk064:
Don't know about the barrel, but what about the 9X25 Dillon. I know the double tap ammo smokes out of a 1911. (10mm necked to 9)




I’ll definitely look into 9x25 Dillon a bit more. But so far it looks like factory ammo is not as readily available as 9x23 Winchester. You can buy 9X23 at Midway USA and the cartridge is supported by Winchester.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 8:08:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
9x23/38 Super Comp falls into the same catagory as the 38 Super... only way to feed it is Sten mag, as cartridge OAL is similar to that of the 45acp @ 1.270" MAX.. Sten mag is 9mm (1.169" max OAL).

You would most likely need to use FP bullets to hold the OAL down. I have not tried it with the mags I have. The 9x23/38 Super Comp would stack a whole lot better in the mag, as opposed to the weeee little rim on the 38 Super.




Unless I can find a working alternative I think I may have resigned myself to the fact that magazines will have to fabricated. This will cost more than I would have liked but is does take care of some problems like mismatched cartridge/chamber combinations.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 8:17:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TSH77769:
Why not just use a 9mm/.355 projectile loaded into a 5.56mm case? This has been done before and works well. Another option would be to use an elongated straight walled version of a 5.56 case and again merely load a .355 projectile in it. Again, I beleive that this or something quite similiar has been done before.

Tsh77769



It is a very cool idea and I have looked into it a little bit.

I have two problems with it:

1. Now we would be using a nonstandard cartridge that no factory ammo is available.
2. The fact that standard GI magazines could be used in this case is not a benefit but a serious problem, as the proposed cartridge could chamber in a .223 barrel. Using standard GI magazines would make the possibility of this dangerous condition much more likely, with very disastrous results.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 11:56:13 AM EDT
Sounds like a lot of expensive trouble to get hurt over.

9X25 Dillon in a blowback AR-15.........outright dangerous..........especially in a plastic upper/lower.

I was asked about doing an adapter for the 7.62x25 because of the cheap ammo and the appeal of high velocity. This ammo varies GREATLY in quality/pressures/origin/nomenclature. Some of this shit blows up weapons that it was designed for.

If you want a high powered AR-15 they make them in 5.56mm and are readily available.

You guys be safe and make it thru the New Year!
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:39:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 12:52:28 PM EDT by nobody-really]

Originally Posted By Dehammer:
Sounds like a lot of expensive trouble to get hurt over.

9X25 Dillon in a blowback AR-15.........outright dangerous..........especially in a plastic upper/lower.

I was asked about doing an adapter for the 7.62x25 because of the cheap ammo and the appeal of high velocity. This ammo varies GREATLY in quality/pressures/origin/nomenclature. Some of this shit blows up weapons that it was designed for.

If you want a high powered AR-15 they make them in 5.56mm and are readily available.

You guys be safe and make it thru the New Year!




I was looking into a 9x23 Winchester not a 9x25 Dillon chambering.

Yes .223 is good and all but out of a 7.5 inch barrel many “Experts” say it is all but useless. I have a 7.5 inch .223 AR and it works great. I get 2100-2200 fps from a .22 cal 55gr bullet with that 7.5 inch .223. Sounds good until you look at the fact I could get 1700-1900 fps with a 125gr 9mm bullet out of a 7.5inch 9x23 Winchester cartridge.

Oh, and did I mention that you need to add a 3 inch Krink brake to the .223 to get it to sound like anything less then a cannon. So add a couple more inches to the 9x23 barrel and you’ll get 1800-2000 fps with that 125gr 9mm bullet.

And don’t even think about adding a suppressor to that 7.5 inch .223, no suppressor manufacture would touch that with a 10 foot pole. But run a 9x23 and you could throw a suppressor on there from any manufacturer.

Sorry, but for a short CQB gun that 9x23 starts to look pretty good.


Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:58:27 PM EDT
Some of the replies here are a bit on the "not quite but close" side.

TO run 9 x 23 you can go with PPsh43 magazines. These are an off-the-shelf item, available at several sources, my favorite being Allegheny Arsenal (website). We are trying to complete the mag well adapter that will take these and allow use of the normal AR mag release.

If you prefer a different set up, you can take Sten mags and mill the back center rib out of the mag, This will then allow a loaded length that accommodates the 7.62 x 25 cartridge, which should be enough to accept the 9 x 23 as well. You can use these with the typical Oly sten adapter PROVIDED ....

Building the 9 x25 or the 9 x 23 would not be a big deal nor is the 7.62 x 25. Key here is that we offer these in GAS OPERATED mode. Yes, they function fine. I operate a 10.5 in 7.62 x 25 and it runs like a champ. We also have a 16" here, along with having done several blow back versions that are running just fine (several board members here own these). The 9 x 23 would be fine in blow back mode as well as gas mode. The 9 x 25 would be even better in gas mode, as it is strikingly similar to our 338 Spectre or Randall's 35 cal version. Note that Randall has done the 357 Rimless that was mentioned earlier. As to operability, the 338 will run 300 gr subsonic rounds just a easily as 160 gr full power.

In a nut shell -

For 9 x 23
Use Ppsh 43 mags and run either gas or blow back, for blow back get heavier components (10mm) to be sure

Use modified Sten mags and do same thing

For 9 x 25 -

Use Ppsh43 mags, run in gas mode or use PRI 6.8 mags with internal spacer

Do a search in this forum on 7.62 x25 and you should be able to find a number of posts on that topic.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:01:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 8:01:44 PM EDT by nobody-really]

Originally Posted By MartytW:

In a nut shell -

For 9 x 23
Use Ppsh 43 mags and run either gas or blow back, for blow back get heavier components (10mm) to be sure

Use modified Sten mags and do same thing




For 9x23 you are saying use heavier components. Like parts are you talking about like recoil spring and buffer? What 10mm parts?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:17:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nobody-really:

Originally Posted By MartytW:

In a nut shell -

For 9 x 23
Use Ppsh 43 mags and run either gas or blow back, for blow back get heavier components (10mm) to be sure

Use modified Sten mags and do same thing




For 9x23 you are saying use heavier components. Like parts are you talking about like recoil spring and buffer? What 10mm parts?



A while back there was a very nice informative post on different caliber blowback uppers. In that post, there was a picture showing different bolt/carrier assemblies (being blowback, they are one piece as opposed to the regular gas version). It clearly showed that the 10mm version used a far heavier "bolt/carrier" than the 9mm version. I am not sure what the title of the post was or who posted it, so I cannot search for it You could go with the Recoil/Rate Reducing buffer and heavier spring and that should rememdy any issue.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:41:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 4:43:38 PM EDT by nobody-really]

Originally Posted By MartytW:

Originally Posted By nobody-really:

Originally Posted By MartytW:

In a nut shell -

For 9 x 23
Use Ppsh 43 mags and run either gas or blow back, for blow back get heavier components (10mm) to be sure

Use modified Sten mags and do same thing




For 9x23 you are saying use heavier components. Like parts are you talking about like recoil spring and buffer? What 10mm parts?



A while back there was a very nice informative post on different caliber blowback uppers. In that post, there was a picture showing different bolt/carrier assemblies (being blowback, they are one piece as opposed to the regular gas version). It clearly showed that the 10mm version used a far heavier "bolt/carrier" than the 9mm version. I am not sure what the title of the post was or who posted it, so I cannot search for it You could go with the Recoil/Rate Reducing buffer and heavier spring and that should rememdy any issue.



Great thank you. I have an extra MGI Buffer and a couple of new Wolff Extra power springs.

For a barrel can I get a 9mm barrel and a 9x23 chamber reamer and have my machinist put it in a lathe and bore out the chamber a little more? Then blue it.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:53:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:58:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:

Originally Posted By nobody-really:

For a barrel can I get a 9mm barrel and a 9x23 chamber reamer and have my machinist put it in a lathe and bore out the chamber a little more? Then blue it.



Yep, just make sure the bore is NOT chrome lined.
Chrome will eat a regular reamer before you know what went wrong...
Don't even need to re-blue inside the chamber.
This would be the easiest path to start, then I'll make you custom barrels if you like how the test bed runs.



Thank you for the answer. And thank you for replying to my email about making barrels for me.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 10:11:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MartytW:
Building the 9 x25 or the 9 x 23 would not be a big deal nor is the 7.62 x 25. Key here is that we offer these in GAS OPERATED mode. Yes, they function fine.

For 9 x 25 -

Use Ppsh43 mags, run in gas mode or use PRI 6.8 mags with internal spacer

Does gas operation attenuate the recoil at all?. A gas operated 9x25 upper sounds interesting.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:40:55 PM EDT







mine is recoil and don't have any problems. just have to walk 20ft to find my brass. i gather another 300fps out of it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:52:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shindawia6:
tinypic.com/jq5isi.jpg


tinypic.com/jq5j87.jpg


mine is recoil and don't have any problems. just have to walk 20ft to find my brass. i gather another 300fps out of it.

Are those .41AE mags? Did you have to mod them at all to load them? Which mag block is that?

Neat setup you have!
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 2:50:35 PM EDT
yeap they are 41 mags. kurt kustom made the upper and did the mag work. he squished the mags so the 10mm and 9x25 would fit. the mag block is his.
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