How big is a grackle?  The drop-in conversions like the Ciener or M-261 aren't all that accurate.  Definitely not as accurate as a cheap 10/22 for about the same price.  An upper like the CZ would be on par with the 10/22, but cost more.  In my experience the no-powder loads like the CBs or Colibris aren't all that accurate out of a "real" .22, and I think they'd be even worse out of a kit than regular .22s since they lack the pressure to get the bullet "squished" out to the oversize bore.  And, as Bastropjim noted, they won't cycle so you'd have to rack the bolt for every shot.

If you're going to try the no-powder loads the best bet is a cheap bolt-action.  The CBs are available as either Shorts or Longs and the Super Colibri are basically a Long, so something that's rated for S/L/LR is best.  Like a single-shot or one of the tube-magazine guns.  My Marlin 881 feeds them fine, but they won't feed from the clip magazine in my dad's 880.  

IMHO the CB/SC are a little too loud for indoors w/o hearing protection, but they're quiet compared to anything with powder in it.  CBs are 29gr and SC are 20gr.  I don't have my chrono data handy, but they're about 400-600fps.  They're far weaker than a regular .22LR.  The Subsonic loads (and most "target" loads are subsonic too) are "real .22s" so they're just as powerful (and dangerous) as the high-vel loads.

Quoted: How big is a grackle?

Bigger than a Robin smaller than a crow, about 9" tall.

Good info on the 22 ammo.  Sounds like it's all pointing back to bird shot with a cheap 22 rifle.  Or, I could get busy and finish my remote gun (remote bullseye shooter or RBS) although I'm not sure it's going to work as planned.

The reason I thought to go with a conversion was the fact that the cdnn upper used a bull barrel and I thought it would be quieter.  I have read also that the longer the barrel the less noise will be emitted?  

More thoughts?  Your help and ideas have been great, please keep them coming...

Good info on the 22 ammo.  Sounds like it's all pointing back to bird shot with a cheap 22 rifle.

Do some more research on the birdshot.  I think you'll find that the .22 birdshot is unlikely to give you the killing power you need, or a usable pattern at the distance you're talking about, even with a smoothbore.   Think more like a mouse across the room.   www.rimfirecentral.com has an ammunition forum and a pretty decent search engine (you might have to sign up to search, but the posts go all the way back for browsing even to guests).  Try the Marlin forum for "Garden Gun" too.   Birdshot sounds like a regular .22LR, BTW.

The reason I thought to go with a conversion was the fact that the cdnn upper used a bull barrel and I thought it would be quieter.  I have read also that the longer the barrel the less noise will be emitted?

Longer barrel is usually quieter, primarily because the gas pressure is lower when the bullet exits.  Of course, it seems quieter to you because the blast is that much farther away too.  I'm not sure that it's so noticable to an observer off to the side.  A 16" bull barrel and a 16" lightweight barrel would sound the same.  

Before spending too much I'd find a buddy with a .22 rifle and do some experiments at the range.   Get as far away from him as you can and have him shoot some high-vel and subsonic/std-vel and see how loud they sound to a distant observer.  I'm sure they'll have the accuracy and power needed.  If that's too loud, try some CB/SC.  They'll be plenty quiet enough for neighbors a mile away, but might still be audible to close neighbors.  Be sure to test whether they'll have enough power to kill the grackle.  If they do, look for a single-shot bolt action to shoot them in.  If you're lucky they'll be accurate enough for you.  Try some birdshot too.  

You might also want to spend some time browsing this airgun forum.  They have a search engine too.  You'd be surprised what the better airguns can do.  Some of the newer PCP ones are getting close to .22LR power.  I've heard they're almost as loud too, but airguns are outside ATF regs and allowed to have "moderators" (suppressors).


And be sure to check whether it's legal to shoot in your backyard (most towns/cities allow airguns, but not firearms and even the CB/SC would count as a firearm).  And be sure it's legal to shoot Grackles in your area as well.

22 shotshells only good out about 7 to 10 feet then pattern to wide to do anything. i tryed some on a rabbit at 25 feet all I got was holes in my grass.

Shotshells are no good in a rifled barrell.  The rifling imparts a spin that causes the cone of shot to quickly expand when it leaves the muzzle.  As previously pointed out, you need a smoothbore to shoot shotshells.

You can shoot Aguila Super Colibri in your back yard with accuracy at ranges up to 50'.  As far as noise goes, they typical home improvement project will make a lot more noise than shooting SC's in a rifle.

A well-placed shot with CCI CB or Aguila SC ammo will do the job on birds.  Powderless ammo doesn't have the energy to be humane on anything bigger. Aguila makes two types of powederless .22 ammo - Colibri & Super Colibri.  The Colibri has 6 ft-lbs at about 600 fps in a rifle.  You need at least 12 ft-lbs to humanely kill squirrels.  Also be advised that the Colibri should only be used in pistol-length barrels.  The Super Colibri is designed for rifles.

For $300 or so, you can purchase a very well-made spring air rifle (Beeman R-9, RWS 48, lots of others) that will make 15-18 ft-lbs with .22 cal. pellets.  With a good scope, you can dispatch squirrels or smaller game at ranges up to 50 yards.  The report will be a bit louder than the powderless ammo - not quite as loud as .22 LR shorts in a longer barrel.  If you go this route, MAKE SURE THE SCOPE IS RATED FOR A SPRING AIR RIFLE.

So, you need to decide what the real goal is - accuracy with power to kill, or backyard target practice without drawing attention.  For target practice with an AR-15, I'd use the Aguila Super Colibri in a dedicated .22 upper.  For backyard bird sniping, I'd buy a good European spring air rifle.

HTH, Jim

Quoted: Longer barrel is usually quieter, primarily because the gas pressure is lower when the bullet exits.  Of course, it seems quieter to you because the blast is that much farther away too.  I'm not sure that it's so noticable to an observer off to the side.

Oh, it absolutely is. At the range, I can always tell without looking whether my son, shooting at the next bench over, is shooting his 22" bolt rifle or my 16" .22 DPMS. No doubt about it.

As far as noise goes, they typical home improvement project will make a lot more noise than shooting SC's in a rifle.

Good point.  I guess the question is whether you need to be quiet enough to not disturb them, or quiet enough for them to not know you're shooting.  Audible but not annoying is much louder than not audible.

Aguila makes two types of powederless .22 ammo - Colibri & Super Colibri.  The Colibri has 6 ft-lbs at about 600 fps in a rifle.  You need at least 12 ft-lbs to humanely kill squirrels.  Also be advised that the Colibri should only be used in pistol-length barrels.  The Super Colibri is designed for rifles.

I thought the Colibri had been discontinued and only the Super Colibri was available.  Did they reintroduce the slower load again?  I don't have my chrono data handy, but I'm pretty sure 600fps is pretty optimistic for the SC.  IIRC Aguila claimed 300fps for the Colibri and 500fps for the Super, and my testing showed the longer the barrel the slower.  Both CCI CB loads were pretty close the the SC, and the regular Colibri was significantly slower (and quieter).

For $300 or so, you can purchase a very well-made spring air rifle ...  If you go this route, MAKE SURE THE SCOPE IS RATED FOR A SPRING AIR RIFLE.

Spring air rifles recoil forward, which can quickly kill a scope that isn't designed for it.  Even ones that can handle belted magnums recoiling rearward.  Air rifle scopes also usually have the parallax set for the closer ranges they're used at.

Quoted: Quoted: How big is a grackle? Bigger than a Robin smaller than a crow, about 9" tall. Good info on the 22 ammo.  Sounds like it's all pointing back to bird shot with a cheap 22 rifle.  Or, I could get busy and finish my remote gun (remote bullseye shooter or RBS) although I'm not sure it's going to work as planned. The reason I thought to go with a conversion was the fact that the cdnn upper used a bull barrel and I thought it would be quieter.  I have read also that the longer the barrel the less noise will be emitted?   More thoughts?  Your help and ideas have been great, please keep them coming...

Not really a "bull". Mine measures .7265 inch O.D. at the muzzle. More of a "heavy" configuration.
Just FYI for those wondering.

Tag
Sean

Quoted: Mike, Ive been pondering the 261 capacity issue for a while....Make a new mag vs. modify a ciener mag (which isnt known for its out of the box reliability or customer service).  In the interest of time I may start with a ciener 30 rounder and go from there.

The problem with starting with a Ciener mag is that they're $60.  I'd hate to risk that much on a project that might not work.  But I guess you could find a 10-round mag to experiment with and then make the mod to the 30-rounder after you have the bugs worked out.  That's assuming that the change is to move and/or tilt the inner body with respect to the outer block to get the rounds in the right place for the M-261.  

Another possibility is to find a magazine to use as the insert and then try to splice that into the top of the insert from an M-261 or fabricate some sort of top part to hold it into place.  IIRC the Ciener inner part is the whole magazine for some other rifle.   If you had something to use as the insert, I don't think making a "skirt" at the top to hold it in position in a magazine would be that hard.  I found a magazine in a junk box at a gun show that appears to have the same cross-section as the Ciener inner parts.  Holds I think 15 rounds.  I bought it to try to make an insert for the Ciener, but never got around to messing with it.  

Mike_L

Checkout this thread for a tutorial on modding a high cap for the 261

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=260344

there is an insert that is cheaper then the ciener mag.....

take a look at the marlin single stack .22 mags or one for a charter arms style .22
both single stack as well as fairly flat/no weird feed angle

Quoted: I have a reason to be quite, I don't want the neighbors to hear me....  is that so wrong?   I'll tell you the problem and maybe somebody can add something to help? If I were going to shoot grackles at 10-20 yards, in town, I would want to do it very quietly and safely.  Most shots I currently take with my pellet gun are up in the air at the birds who are sitting in a blue spruce. About a 20-35 degree upward shot.  Distance to the outskirts of town about a mile or less.  I would like to use 22 cal bird shot in a dedicated upper with some type of noise suppressor in my ar-15.  Or a ruger 10/22 with sub-sonic 22 cal and added noise control or, a savage smooth bore with 22 sub-sonic.  I have looked at cdnn $249 22lr dedicated upper and figure I can get a  10/22 for about $150 or less.  Cheaper than dirt has the ciner adapter for $149 but the accuracy may not be good enough.  And if I shoot bird shot I should have a smooth bore, huh? I just don't know what to do to get the job done for the least amount of money and most important safety and NOISE! Any advice? Thanks

From experience if you fire shot loads from a suppressed barrel (suppressors are no issue at all in the UK) you'll find it will start to rattle as the pellets catch in the baffles, even after stripping the silencer down you'll never get them all out and it drives you nuts.

The silver CCI shot cartridges wont cycle either my V22 upper or my Bremmer (M261) although interestingly work 90% of the time in my 10/22.

That said the shot shells are so quiet anyway theres not much point if you have to get special permission over there, they aren't much louder than an airgun.

Richard