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Posted: 9/20/2003 6:02:57 PM EDT
I'm looking to acuire a dedicated .22lr upper> (the nearest range that'll let me shoot anything bigger than a 22 rimfire is a three hour drive away)
I was wondering which was the most accurate of the following in terms of MOA:

DPMS Bull barrel
Fulton Armory Accutron II 22lr
CZ 22lr

I'd prefer a flattop, so i can shoot it in smallbore matches. Any other suggestions that are in the same price range would be welcome.
Thanks in advance,
Chris
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 4:46:40 AM EDT
Try Compass Lake Engineering. I've never had one but those who do speak highly of them. Of the three you list I guess I've read the CZ is probably the cheapest one out there but isn't very accurate.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 6:29:08 AM EDT
I have DPMS A22 which is an entire .22lr rifle in lower milspec. I have not tested which ammo give best MOA, but so far 1.5MOA at 50 yrds. I expect much better once I sort it out. Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 7:03:18 AM EDT
I have heard good things about CLE, but they are a bit out of my current price range. Do you have a 2 stage trigger in your lower? Any problems with feed or jams?
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 3:28:17 PM EDT
also Rick at Kuehl Precision. Excellent rep.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 7:55:09 PM EDT
I've got a CLE in the A4 model. I shoot it on my main lower with a Knight trigger. Love it....Money well spent. Dan
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 10:08:58 PM EDT
I have heard good things about CLE, But a grand for an upper without sights is a bit out of reach for my limited funding. I'm looking a kuehl as a possibility, being cheaper than the Fulton. How accurate are the Kuehls anyway?
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 2:18:26 AM EDT
I have had an upper on order since July. Still no upper though he said it would be tested today and possibly shipped tomorrow. Not a slam on Rick. He's doing everything to insure 100% functioning when I recieve it. I'll post range info after that if you can wait. It seems there was someplace I saw with some of the 20" Kuehl upper for sale as in stock items.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 4:46:39 AM EDT
No problem. What is the better length for accuracy, 16" or 20"? I saw that M4 22lr upper and it is quite tempting, especially with that brake on it. (visions of adding a collapsable stock, fake can and hicap mags in the event of current legislation sunsetting are now dancing around in my mind) And if its as accurate as a 20 inch, i'd probably get one.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 5:51:11 AM EDT
Can't really say about accuracy but I have read and several have confirmed that muzzle velocity suffers after 16". How much? I don't have a clue. I think I also was informed at some point that 13" is about optimal for the .22LR cartridge. It kind of freaked me out until I read some on .22LR pistol competitions. With shorter barrels those guys shoot lights out. Given the limitations of the cartridge I am hoping for 1MOA. Which tranlates to .5MOA at 50yrds (a tall order to be sure). For me 100yrd shots with the rifle will be rare so I'm not concerned with the longer range application. I suppose it depends on what exactly you want it for. I opted for the M4 for the length factor. BTW all said and done this project is approaching ~$1600 but I got the SIR, a BM lower, ACE stock, etc... and I still havent gotten optics (the wife is watching) As I've been told by many, I could have gotten a trunkfull of 10/22s, but hey I love the black rifle.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 6:07:08 AM EDT
FWIW, while I am unfamiliar w/ 22LR "uppers" most of the guys my gunsmith are shooting with in "50 yard" 22 competitions are putting 10 rounds in a one slightly expanded 22 caliber sized hole. They mostly use highly customized 10/22 rifles w/16" bull-barrels and IIRC Black Hills 22 ammo. As at 50 yards, 1/2 inch is MOA at 50 yards, guess that puts them shooting much less than 1/2 MOA at 50 yards. That's said though, anyone shooting groups measuring much over the .22 diameter holes at their competitions, don't win squat. Doubt anything but a highly modified/customized dedicated 22LR AR type rifle can come close to matching the performance of a custom 10/22. Mike Mike
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 6:08:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rocketman223: Given the limitations of the cartridge I am hoping for 1MOA. Which tranlates to [red].5MOA at 50yrds[/red] (a tall order to be sure).
View Quote
Math police: Actually, it's still 1 MOA. I MOA is ~1" at 100 yards and ~0.5" at 50 yards. (~5" at 500 yards, etc.)
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 7:03:34 AM EDT
I would get a 10/22, except the powers that be would kill me if I came home with another rifle. What barrel length and ammo were they using to shoot a group like that?
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 8:35:25 AM EDT
Sorry about the math guys must have not been paying enough attention. I stand corrected. Bottom line; a half inch at 50 yrds is the mark I'm shooting for. I don't expect to enter nor win any competitions. If however the rifle will do better than 1MOA so much the better for me! Mike your guys are shooting great by the way.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:42:19 PM EDT
I just got my DPMS 16" bull barrel flat top upper a couple of days ago and am getting .5 moa at 50 meters with run of the mill CCI ammo and a Simmons 4.5-14x by 40 scope. It also seems to eat any type of ammo with decent accuracy, even Aguial 60gr sub sonic, but accuracy and range are hampered a little with this round. It has been 100% reliable so far. I am very, very pleased with it and would recommend it to anyone looking for a 22lr flat top upper.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 7:34:23 PM EDT
Me too! I got my DPMS upper about 3 weeks ago and I have been very pleased with it. I haven't done any real serious accuracy testing yet, but I have gotten about 2" @ 100yds performance with it. Before anyone blows this off: I was using cheap Wal-Mart special ammo and an Aimpoint Comp ML2 (pirated from my M16A4gery). Now that I have a Simmons ProAir 4-12x40 on it i'm expecting better, whenever it is that I can get back out to the range. As far as reliability goes, I've had nothing but 100% out of it. Even after 500 ronds it didn't seem as dirty as my 10/22. What made up my mind for the DPMS was a review of it in the latest issue of Precision Shooting magazine (Oct. '03, I think). It was shown t be reliable with almost all ammo fed to it, and VERY accurate as well (they say it likes Wolf Match Target best - As in about .360" at 50 yds) Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:42:50 PM EDT
OK, here are my experiences: I just bought an M4-profile barrel from Fulton Armory for $200. I installed it in a $40 A2 upper that I picked up at Camp Perry. With NM iron sights, I'm getting 3/4" - 1" groups at 50 yards. As for accuracy/velocity in 16"/20" barrels, I feel that the 16" barrel is best all-around. I have read that beyond 16", rimfire rounds actually begin to LOSE velocity to barrel friction. You may gain a little accuracy with a 20" barrel, mainly due to the increased sight-radius, but I'm more than satisfied with my 16". I had hoped to install the front sight far enough forward to allow me to use mid-length handguards, thus increasing the sight radius. However, the barrel profile on the M4 will not allow this. I would avoid the CZ, I've heard a lot of bad reports on accuracy and reliability. Fulton had the barrel in stock, and it was in my mailbox two days after I called in my order. Clint and Walt at Fulton were very helpful. They answered a TON of stupid questions before I actually placed my order. I highly recommend Fulton. You just don't get that kind of personal service from DPMS.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 9:28:27 PM EDT
I have narrowed it down to either a Kuehl or a DPMS bull barrel upper. DPMS = 0.5 MOA, translates to 1/12 inch at 50 feet. Kuehl: Just waiting for Rocketman223's range report I figure on putting a bloop tube on it to extend my sight radius, so i'll probably go with a 16 inch barrel, and turn the end down to accept a tube. I'd go with a different barrel, but i dont have a spare upper to modify. I am really starting to like those M4 .22lr style uppers tho. put NM sights on one, free float the barrel, heavy barrel under handguards. . . I have give up on a CZ, not the best in anything, except price, but i prefer accuracy to saving money. I can get a DPMS from a site for 360 or so, I have done business with them before and they havent let me down. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Chris
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 4:42:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 10:03:37 AM EDT by rocketman223]
I'm waiting for my range report too. Apparently the upper didn't ship last week due to "problems" and I don't have word it shipped yet this week. The upper priced out at $610 because I didnt need the hand gaurds. The DPMS M4 upper at 495 and in stock is looking mighty good right about now. I don't know which way I would go at this point. If the Kuehl is a "one holer" sure I'd take it every time. If accuracy is only slightly better I'd rather have the Kuehl but then factoring in the wait....I dunno. Accuracy being the same, save the cash and buy the DPMS. Don't mean to rag on Rick too much. I believe his upper will be superior to the more mass produced versions but I'm growing somewhat impatient (plus I'm on little sleep due to sick little ones). I still don't have my KKF mags or the Tubb fire lapp kit either. There seems to be lack of supply out there and none of the above are contacting me to check on my satisfaction. They are answering e-mail except for the people who I ordered the Tubb kit from. Someones ears must have been ringing. I just got a call from the wife to tell be something had been attempted to be delivered and I can pick it up tomorrow...I'll let you know.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:30:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Krazny13: DPMS = 0.5 MOA, translates to 1/12 inch at 50 feet.
View Quote
.5 MOA = 1/4" @ 50 yards. My Fulton is shooting 3/4" at 50 yards (off-hand, with open sights). With good optics and a solid rest, I can easily see 3/8" groups. BTW, what mags does the DPMS use?
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:05:27 AM EDT
I think DPMS uses DPMS mags. It isn't a Ciener conversion...correct me if I'm wrong
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 11:17:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2003 11:19:38 AM EDT by Krazny13]
A .5 MOA at 50 FEET (16.6667 yards) translates to 1/3 of 1/4 inch at 50 YARDS, thus giving a value of 1/12 of an inch at 50 feet. Or so if i carried the one right Got a catalog from Kuehl today, and am looking for the PS article on the DPMS upper. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions. . . Anyone know if DPMS would make 30 rounder mags for the 22lr if the ban sunsets? Thanks Chris
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 4:54:17 PM EDT
Sorry for the earlier rant. I will excercise more patience in the future.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 3:52:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rocketman223: I think DPMS uses DPMS mags. It isn't a Ciener conversion...correct me if I'm wrong
View Quote
I have a DPMS it is NOT a conversion. Cut barrel and chamber is refined and defined whole extended piece of the barrel. The bolt as it starts chambering, grabs the bullet from the DPMS mag and chambers round. The bolt NOW covers the "nipple" (because that is what it looks like). The bolt is the "female" the barrel, the "male". Get the picture? Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 6:51:15 PM EDT
Got the upper last weekend and put it together. Fit and finish are great! No real range data yet but I have 100 rounds through it to check function and get a feel for cleaning needs. Using CCI high velocity coppers no feed problems, no ejection failures and no fire failures. One thing I never considered is that the bolt doesnt hold open after the 10th round so I had a couple of dry fires when I lost count but it's a small issue. Haven't fully checked accuracy but it is grouping under 1.5" at approx 50yrds in 50 degrees with drizzle and 10-15 cross wind while shooting standing (kind of propped against a tree). I used a 6x scope. The CCI round may be a bit light as they are 36gr opposed to 40gr recommended. I have been on vacation since then so I hope to get things together this week. I have pictures which I'll post tomorrow. All in all I am really satisfied with the Kuehl. And 300rnds for ~$13 as opposed to the $18/20rnd .223 ammo. Oh yea loving it!
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 7:55:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2003 7:56:18 AM EDT by Dan0341]
Glad you finally got it. Rick does excellent work and is definately worth waiting for. Here's a pic of mine. Dan [img]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~brownhen/_uimages/M16withKuehlupper.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 4:36:57 AM EDT
Very nice. Exactly what I had visions of earlier, just add a cylindrical decibel reduction device to the end of the barrel . . .
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:15:30 AM EDT
Here it is with a rimfire suppressor rated for full auto. Dan [img]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~brownhen/_uimages/M16Commanchediagnol.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 4:10:12 PM EDT
Very pretty, and full auto too. . . And here I am, stuck with a little ol' postban eagle. If it ever needs a good home. . . hows it shoot?
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 6:15:09 PM EDT
It shoots extremely well with CCI Standard Velocity (I use this for subsonic ammo). After about eight or ten 30 round mags, reliability is not absolute and it needs a quick cleaning. Although, it only takes a couple of minutes to brush and wipe down. Lately, I've only been shooting four 30 round mags at a time and then I put it away (getting a quick fix before the mosquitos carry me away). I can't remember the last time I've had a single malfunction during these four mags. I did perform some "tweaking" to get it to run this good with standard velocity ammunition (the kits prefer high velocity). I couldn't be happier with it. Dan
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 2:09:27 PM EDT
All, check the Kuehl thread for the pictures as promised...
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