Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 9/4/2003 10:37:07 PM EDT

I was just wondering if anyone has ever heard of a 7.62x25mm upper? If not, how expensive would it be to have one made? I don't imagine it would be much harder than making a 9mm upper. Perhaps something that would take either PPSH mags, or CZ-26 mags?

I would think there are more than a few avid cz-52/tokarev shooters that would like such a rifle.

Just wondering.

Sam
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 7:28:59 AM EDT
I have been thinking about doing a 7.62X25 upper but at this time I can't really justify it. I have a CZ-52 pistol and love shooting it. I also have a .357Sig upper. As far as doing a Tokarev upper I would imagine the only change I would have to make to my Sig upper would be the Barrel and use the bolt from my 9mm upper. I would have to come up with a magazine setup also. I have been told that there are people who have done a 7.62X25 upper.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 10:17:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 10:40:28 AM EDT by RiffRandall]
There's a few guys here who either are working on one or have done it. If I reall correctly the Czech Cz24/26 mags are too wide at the rear for the AR15 mag well. They should fit the new Mk2 version of the CavArms polymer lower since it has a wide spot in the mag well to facilitate using M3 'greasegun' mags but you'd have to rig a custom magblock. The PPSh41 mags have 'wings' on the top that prevent insertion into mag well. Grinding off the wings would constitute the 'manufacture' of a new hi-cap mag since it wouldn't fit a PPSh41 anymore. If you live outside the USA, the AW ban goes away or you don't give a fk about unconstitional laws & are willing to risk it the PPSh41 mags would work with mods. PPS43 mags seem to be the way to go. No wings on the top to get in the way. The Yugoslavians used a smg that looked like a MP40 with curved mags for the 7.62x25 cartridge....not real easy to find the mags though Numrich Arms/GPC has/had them. Tokarev pistol mags could be adapted to work but they're only 8 rounds, 9 if you can find the Yugo Tokarev mags (longer grip). Might be a good use for all those POS USA brand AR15 mags...pull the follower & spring & epoxy in a TT-33 mag inside. Fugly but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 1:59:43 AM EDT
I have a 7.62x25 upper arriving at my house in the next cople weeks. Will use PPS 43 mags with a modified one-piece block, once I actually do the mods. Will post pics, results, and procedures once the project actually gets underway (and who the hell knows whan that will be!).
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:05:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2003 8:07:10 AM EDT by Kaliburz]
Yes, PPS43 mags are narrow enough to fit w/ in a Colt mag block type. I "believe" they are a little narrower... BUT (a big BUT)....they have their own issues. Unlike most mags, they have lots of stuff sticking out their back end... I did some preliminary research on a few PPS43 mags I have. Have some notes and ideas jotted down.... I'm gonna have to start up this project again. Reason(s) for have a PPS43 mag block. 1) One can have a 7.62x25 upper made. [:D] 2) PPS43 mag is longer... 3) Mag can fit in "normal" AR magwell (w/ adapter...if adapter is do able)... and with out altering the mag so it is still "legal". 4) PPS43 mag can be used for "other" caliber uppers. Example: 38 Super (9x23) upper can be developed. 10mm rounds will fit in PPS43 mag....10mm upper in Colt style [:)] And hi cap too!! Or a 9x25(????)mm upper... that's a 10mm necked 9mm). My goal is to have a mag that is just notched (like w/ the Sten in Colt style). If that happens, time will tell.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 2:47:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:27:33 PM EDT
Corvus - Just cleaned, wrapped and packed your upper, ready to go when funds arrive. Regarding 9x23, depending on how gray (versus black n white) you want to read the "manufacture of a new high cap device" clause.... you can take a Sten mag and mill the center back out of it. Weld reenforcement strips or a new back plate to keep things together (note that the Sten mag top section is like a cap, if this new back plate is flush with that cap, all is well). Now it still fits in the Sten, and still holds the 9mm as originally intended. But now the 9x23 and quite possibly the 7.62x25 will fit ... you [i]could[/i] claim that you were simply repairing a badly corroded mag and had to cut that metal away to make it look decent... The Ppsh43 mag will require a new block, but is pretty well set up for a nice paddle style release. Perhaps one of the AR-47 lowers will accept the Ppsh 41 mags?
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:59:56 PM EDT
MartyW That was a thought....as I did see on an auction once a modified Sten mag. The back was milled out. The info I recieved was that some places converted the 9mm Stens to 7.62x25 at one point..... Unfortunatly, the converted mags are hard to find, more likely imposible. It can be done w/ some time and money. If the ban sunsets, "new" hicap mags to hold these round would be possible (granted, unlikely). Someone would have to have enough cash to risk (and the demand may not be there). I can still dream, can't I.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:09:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ILove2Shoot: Corvus, look into the Hahn block, it is two pieces (left and right) which is easier to modify the interior for the pps43 mags......
View Quote
Hmm! Sounds interesting! You have a link to info on the Hahn block? Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:47:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 12:51:24 PM EDT by cyoungso]
Is the issue length? I see the 7.62x25 is based on the 7.63 Mauser. So we are dealing with an OAL of 35mm for the 7.62 vs. 29mm for 9mm Cheers
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 5:36:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyoungso: Is the issue length? I see the 7.62x25 is based on the 7.63 Mauser. So we are dealing with an OAL of 35mm for the 7.62 vs. 29mm for 9mm Cheers
View Quote
Indeed, loaded overall length of the cartridge is the issue. The 9mm Luger or Parabellum is what most magazines out there will accept. These in loaded form are 1.16" or 29.5 mm. The 7.62x25 is based on the longer 9mm Mauser case and the overall loaded length of the surplus ammo is 1.35" or 34.3 mm. This latter round will not work in most typical magazines. Thus either a magazine has to be modified which then makes it subject to the AWB, or else an existing magazine has to be found that works in the AR-15. There appears to be only one magazine that fits in the AR-15 mag well at this time, and that is the Ppsh 43 magazine, however, it requires a new adapter block when used with the Colt style system. Not that it can't be done, but that it simply is cost and labor intensive and folks are reluctant to do it. The CZ24/26 mags with the Cav Arms MkII lower could work, Cav Arms will have to let us know ...
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 9:08:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 9:12:59 PM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By MartytW: (SNIP, SNIP) There appears to be only one magazine that fits in the AR-15 mag well at this time, and that is the Ppsh 43 magazine, however, it requires a new adapter block when used with the Colt style system. Not that it can't be done, but that it simply is cost and labor intensive and folks are reluctant to do it. The CZ24/26 mags with the Cav Arms MkII lower could work, Cav Arms will have to let us know ...
View Quote
I'm not sure how wide the CZ24 mags are. But if they are too wide (as like the GG mags), a two piece block will be needed. The Ppsh 43 mags would be perfect as they are just as wide as normal Colt type mags. Some people don't want to hassel w/ a two piece block. The singles spoil people...LOL Research and Development.... that's what it takes. Attitude, commitment and a little cash...(some would say a lot of cash). And patience.....
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 12:22:16 AM EDT
If & when I decide to do a 7.62x25 upper (time & $$$$ being the problem) the 2 piece block shouldn't be a hassle at all because it will probably go on a dedicated lower. Most likely a 80% DIY one so I'll just pin the block in there for keeps. And with the 80% lower I can have the Tula Arsenal star & cyrillic lettering engraved on it. Hey, it's in a Russki chambering so should look the part, dah?
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 4:47:33 AM EDT
CORVUS, I was just wondering if you could give us some specs on the 7.62X25 upper like barrel length, twist rate, heavy or light barrel conf. What weight buffer will you use and is your 9mm bolt ramped. Who is building the upper? This sounds like a really good project and I hope your magblock works out OK.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:44:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:12:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 7:13:44 PM EDT by Corvus]
Originally Posted By MartytW: Corvus - Just cleaned, wrapped and packed your upper, ready to go when funds arrive.
View Quote
Marty, I got the package this week. All I can say is: [b]YOU RULE!!![/B] [:D] The upper looks great, and I can't wait to carve out some time with my machinist friend to make the PPS43 mags work! I'll keep all updated on the setup I've named "My Little Bitch." [devil]
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:25:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-fan: CORVUS, I was just wondering if you could give us some specs on the 7.62X25 upper like barrel length, twist rate, heavy or light barrel conf. What weight buffer will you use and is your 9mm bolt ramped. Who is building the upper?
View Quote
The upper was built by Marty ter Weeme at Teppo Jutsu [url=http://www.teppojutsu.com](click here for Teppo's cool website)[/url]. I sent him a complete RRA 9mm upper and he installed the new barrel, headspaced, test fired, and worked his magic. The barrel is a heavy 11.5/5.5" true .308 1/10 twist, IIRC. I'll probably use the heavy buffer so I can put the hotter subgun stuff through the gun. No, the bolt is not ramped, and I probably won't ramp it: I may someday want to get a F/A lower, so I think I'll need the bolt in original configuration if I want that. Things look promising with the block. The only snag is that right now, with school full-time and work on top of that, I HAVE NO TIME to work on it. Will keep all posted on the progress of "My Little Bitch."
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 8:49:40 PM EDT
[devil] [naughty] [devil][naughty] Bwahahahaha......
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:56:43 PM EDT
Been quizzing Vic about his Tommy 15 lowers. They take the Suomi drums, but Vic thinks they might take the Ppsh 41 drums as well, I would be willing to send him a drum to try. If it takes the drum, it might even take the Ppsh 41 or 43 STICK. This opens all sorts of avenues. Not only is now the 7.62x25 a viable shooter, but heck, I'm thinking 9x23 or 38 Super. Get a matching double stack 1911 in 38 Super and AR and talk about having some nice hardware ... The low speed, hi drag crowd might take a liking to those ... Imagine 7.62x25 with the option of the 223 Timbs in a drum from an AR ... bwahahahaha M
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 5:22:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 5:34:55 AM EDT by AR-fan]
MartyTW, In talking to Vic did he give you any idea as to the price on the Tommy15 lower? Do you think they may only sell complete rifles? Also, What would a post-ban light weight carbine barrel in 7.62X25, including the headspacing with my 9mm bolt cost? I think I'm starting to get wood for this little project.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 9:22:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 9:27:06 PM EDT by Kaliburz]
Vic? Tommy15??? Ummm...what did I miss???? Matching 38 Super AR and hi cap 1911...working on it... just have to rebarrel my LDA 9mm (as I have 6 or so hi cap 38 Super mags). And I just got my barrel from Corvus.... so I'm thinking of making a 38 Super upper out of that... I'm working on the PPS43 mag block idea... Edit- Found the Tommy16 info. [img]http://www.tommy15.com/2%20adj%20contrast%20mel%20tommy%20Mvc-011f.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 7:37:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-fan: MartyTW, In talking to Vic did he give you any idea as to the price on the Tommy15 lower? Do you think they may only sell complete rifles? Also, What would a post-ban light weight carbine barrel in 7.62X25, including the headspacing with my 9mm bolt cost? I think I'm starting to get wood for this little project.
View Quote
Vic is anwsering questions in the Tommy15 thread. Barrels for AR uppers, Colt style, blowback, in 7.62x25, depends on what the exact details end up being (type of steel, special twist, etc) but could be as low as $150 plus shipping. MtW
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 4:11:21 PM EDT
Oh CRAP!! Sorry... I don't have the time, money, or inclination to do this right now, but... If a properly headspaced and reamed barrel for 7.62x25mm can be had for in the neighborhood of $150; WHERE DO I SIGN UP!? If I can build it myself without having to have a machine shop; then I desperately want an upper in 7.62x25mm. The only problem is that after I have one, I'll have to get one in .30 carbine. *sigh* At least nobody makes uppers in 7.62x54R... Sam
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 4:20:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sambeaux: The only problem is that after I have one, I'll have to get one in .30 carbine. *sigh*
View Quote
You know, Oly makes one now. I've thought about the .30 Carbine thing too, but I love the .30 Carbine too much in the M1 Carbine to betray her that way. [devil]
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 8:20:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corvus:
Originally Posted By sambeaux: The only problem is that after I have one, I'll have to get one in .30 carbine. *sigh*
View Quote
You know, Oly makes one now. I've thought about the .30 Carbine thing too, but I love the .30 Carbine too much in the M1 Carbine to betray her that way. [devil]
View Quote
For the price of the upper, one could get a nice post ban M1 carbine.....
Top Top