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Posted: 8/20/2003 8:24:43 PM EDT
Why is it nobody has a cheap all steel 9mm upper assymbly that pins on an AR lower and uses Sten mags. Back in the early 80's Bill Holmes offered a cheap upper made in both round and square seemless tube that used a recoil spring setup like a MAC where everything was contained in the upper unit and you did'nt need the stock buffer and spring or even the stock. I look around and you can buy a MAC 9/11 carbine upper with the bolt assembly for $172.00, a complete Kel Tec 9mm carbine for $300.00, Mec Tec Glock 9mm carbine Upper for $259.00. I remember seeing complete post ban TEC 9 pistols for $110.00 dealer cost before they folded. You can even buy a complete Ruger 9mm carbine cheaper than a 9mm AR upper. Surely theres a market for a $250.00 cheap upper unit that uses sten mags. The costs of a similar adapter as a Socom would'nt be that high made large quanity on CNC machines. About the cheapest I see Olypic uppers is $550.00 without a Socom block, and about the same for a Colt setup depending on the mag block. You'd think a side charging upper similar to MPA's or the old Tec 9 with a weaver rail on top that used AR carbine hand guards would be a pretty simple upper to produce. What am I missing here?
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 10:10:27 PM EDT
Inflation. I bought an AB10 before.... barrel is crap! It was 1) milled wrong 2) made out of cheap material or 3) both. You can drop a 9mm bullet (new) down the barrel and push it w/ a pencil. It's not even touching the rifling. You get what you pay for ..... Why don't you throw your hat into the ring? Find some people and do it yourself.... just a thought.
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 11:22:14 PM EDT
Kaliburz. I never had an AB10 or TEC. I used them for price reference. I do have a little MPA carbine that takes sten mags and it runs fine. My point was there would seem to be a market for a cheaper upper. With the amount of AR15's out there it would be profitable for a person or company to do a cheap upper. Actully that picture of the side fed sten AR upper unit posted awhile back did'nt look to bad and it had the benifit of the magwell in the side of the upper, no need for a mag block. I will admit a cheap tube steel upper would'nt look as nice as an Olympic or Colt, but if it worked well and was priced in the $250.00 range I'm sure it'd sell. Really you'd think Mec Tec would sell far more carbine uppers for an AR than they could for a Glock. I would'nt think start up costs would be that high for a company that already manufactures firearms or similar parts. If you wait for me to come up with something you'll have to hang in there till I get all 6 numbers in the Lotto.
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 9:56:55 PM EDT
Well, in the end it come back down to the "numbers game". The person(s) doing something have to ask, "Will it make money?" That's the question. I have been thinking of picking up a 9mm Mac. I forgot the name of the company, but someone is selling a Mac clone that is factory built to use Stens in the 9mm and Grease gun mas in the 45 ACP version. I think it was bout $350.00, but I'm sure it's built better then the Tec. It's the one that offers a side charging version.. Well, if I win a big lotto jackpot, I might do some stuff. LOL...but I guess I'd have to play the lotto first. I missed that Sten ar upper post.... time to do a little searching.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 5:23:47 AM EDT
They key here is two things: 1. design using mil-spec materials & quality 2. design around non-proprietary/widely available magazines 3. reliability & longevity Doh! I can't add.... -- Fargo007
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 10:29:34 AM EDT
Kaliburz. Thats an MPA MAC copy your thinking about. I have the 9mm carbine with weaver rail and side charging handle. The 9 uses sten mags. The only thing I don't care for is the muzzle break. fargo007. I agree. Also I think it could be done at an affordable price. I still have an old book around here somewhere with Bill Holmes Drawing's and spec's for 3 different 9mm upper conversions. Theres also drawings with spec's on his homebuilt sheetmetal AR lower. CMMG had a picture floating around of a Holmes 9mm conversion awhile back. Kurt had some photo's of a sheetmetal AR lower he had built also. I think the best one so far was the Sten type upper that was posted awhile back. I think it was in an issue of Small Arms Review also. Maybe I'll call MPA and see if they have any plans for a cheap AR upper in the future
Link Posted: 9/1/2003 8:50:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PAPPYO: I still have an old book around here somewhere with Bill Holmes Drawing's and spec's for 3 different 9mm upper conversions. Theres also drawings with spec's on his homebuilt sheetmetal AR lower.
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PAPPYO, if you find that book please let me know. As I would love to see it. Or at least know the title of it.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 2:33:33 PM EDT
beerjager. I.M me your address if you'd like and I'll send you the book. All Holmes's work is interesting. There's some good detailed drawings of his sheetmetal lower and 9mm conversion uppers. If CMMG still has the picture you can see a Holmes 9mm upper conversion on an older rifle he purchased.
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 4:26:10 PM EDT
What is the tittle of the book? And what was the copyright date? I wouldn't mind trying to track down a copy....
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 5:57:43 PM EDT
Author Bill Holmes the title is. HOME WORKSHOP GUNS. volume V The AR-15/M16 Copyright 1997. Paladin Press ISBN 0-87364-948-6
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 6:42:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2003 6:50:03 PM EDT by Kaliburz]
Originally Posted By PAPPYO: Author Bill Holmes the title is. HOME WORKSHOP GUNS. volume V The AR-15/M16 Copyright 1997. Paladin Press ISBN 0-87364-948-6
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Thank you. Edit- They are available from Amazon.com..... in new or used....
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 12:13:49 PM EDT
it's a good book. Has info on simple heat treating and finishes machine work. Also a section on making a 9mm magazine (Sten style)from scratch. Interesting and worth the money.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:34:10 PM EDT
joeken has a 9mm upper that uses standard sten mags.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:51:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ybh_613: joeken has a 9mm upper that uses standard sten mags.
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That's bascially an Oly style. Mag is all the way forward (IIRC)...saw a pic. One uses a Socom block...
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 10:06:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 7:49:09 AM EDT
Interesting Treetop... It's too bad that there isn't pics that show the "3 styles" out there now. Oly, "Colt" and this other 9 (wasn't it made by Hesse?) Mmmmm...so this block is similar to the Galatani (spelling) block that was posted earlier (way earlier)? Suppose to be a Socom type block that worked w/ the Colt style to use Stens (IIRC), but a user review (by someone here, I think it was AR-fan), said it was NOT what it was advertised. OH well.... But interesting....
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 4:27:48 PM EDT
I bought a Model 1 sale 9. Sounds like the same setup as Hesse. Hopefully the Hesse (Vulcan) is better. The Model 1 Sales unit uses a block like Socoms with a Colt ejector. I had to redo the Model 1 because it would'nt feed at all just stove pipe. I had to narrow the bottom of the Colt bolt to fit between the Sten magazine feedlips. It's a straight shot now from magazine to chamber. Also I cut 2 small relief cuts into the bottom of the lower recievers magzine well to allow the over insertion tabs on the sten magazine to clear. I run the mags higher up into the upper and like the tabs working. I had to make a longer mag catch out of 1/4" keystock. Now the top of the stens left magazine lip sets against the ejector in the magazine block when fully inserted. Now with everything redone it works very well. I did break a hammer pin at about 2500 rounds.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:55:29 PM EDT
Bottom line is, friends, is just work a few extra overtime hours and buy off the shelf. In the hours per dollars equation, you will be having fun at the range quicker if you just get that slush fund started and get a gun on order. In today's economy, that upper is still cheap. Lifetime warranty.
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