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Posted: 5/9/2003 9:15:38 PM EDT
I have put about 700+ rounds through a new Ciener .22 unit.

I have a 10 round and a 30 round magazine.

I lubed it with Militec before I began shooting it.

The first 100 or so rounds were resonably problem free. A few jams, a few failure to fire and a few failure to eject.

I did not expect it to be problem free, however, the more I shot it, the worse it became. I felt that maybe some Militec Grease would be a better lubricant and I added a liberal amountto the slides and the spring.

Things got real bad then. The grease appeared to be 'gluing' rounds against the bolt face instead of allowing them to bounce out and eject. It was now failing on every round.

Spent cases were jumping above the bolt, etc.

After thinking things over, and analyzing the failures, I wiped the unit clean and added only a light amount of oil (Quaker state, actually.)

The gun began to jam only a sinlge time or two for every 8-10 rounds.

Much better, but still not 100%.

I am now getting very few jammed cases, however, I am having a persistent problem with the bolt failing to lock in to battery after ejecting a spent round. It hangs about 1/8th of an inch open. Enough to allow the hammer to fall, but not enough to actually press and detonate the rim of the bullet.

I hear a 'click' as the the hammer falls. This jars the bolt closed. I only saw the gap after inspecting the bolt after each shot.

The procedure then is to eject the magazine. Rack the slide, replace the magazine and pull the trigger.

Since adding grease seemed to foul things up, I am left wondering what to try next.

I need to know what others have tried to increase the reliability of thier Cieners.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 6:41:57 AM EDT
I have not had the feeding/ejection problems, you describe, with my Ciener 22LR Conversion Kit. I can see where the lubrication would increase, rather than decrease the problem. Except in the bolt area itself, I usually find the less lube in the magazine well/magazine, the better. Usually a brushing of the magazine or well, on occasion, addresses the problem of powder fouling. The problem in feeding can be related more to the ammunition used. A good, round nosed bullet works best. I find the Federal Lightning ammo in .22LR, works best for me. The next best is the Remington Thunderbolt. The least reliable in the magazine with the Ciener Conversion kits seems to be the hollow point, brass plated Remington's. I would try different ammo and see if the problem is related to the ammo used, first. That failing to give any answers, I would telephone Ciener and talk with them directly. Mike
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 7:43:13 AM EDT
Mike, Thanks for the advice on the ammunition. I will makea trip to the ammo store today and buy a selection of different ammos, including the ones that you listed. The persistent problem is the bolt failing to travel all the way back against the chamber. I will degrease the unit entirely later today. Add only a small amount of oil, and see if that helps. Thank you. TRG
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 8:22:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2003 8:25:17 AM EDT by Dan0341]
The fixes/tips below were originally posted by Eric from Lakeside Machine. Check out his website - very cool. [url]http://www.lakesideguns.com[/url] 22 kit fixes/tips: 1-Rail surfaces. Any area that is guiding the bolt and anti-bounce weight. 2-Bolt rail slots. polish the inside of the slots where the guide rails slide thru. 3-Anti bolt bounce weight. Polish all surfaces so this weight will slap back and forth freely inside of the receiver when assembled. 4-Rear of the bolt. Polish the surface where the hammer makes contact when the bolt is retracted 5-Hammer face. Polish the hammer face where it will contact the back of the bolt. 6-Chamber insert feed ramp. This area is where the nose of your cartridge will slide before entering the chamber. 7-Underside of the bolt. Polish the entire "rib" where the bolt would ride over the cartridges still in the magazine when the bolt is retracted rearward. 8-recoil spring guide rod. The guide rod on my kit was very rough. Polish this rod to a smooth finish. This makes the spring and rod slide together nicely inside of the bolt. 9-Extractor face. Polish the lead portion of the extractor that makes contact with the chamber insert. For the best results drive the pin out that holds the extractor in place and polish the sides as well. This extractor must move freely inside of the bolt in order to hold the rim of the shell correctly. A few more little tricks to look into on the bolt and assembly of the M16/22 kits are as follows..... 1- Check Extractor headspacing. ????What is that??..This is the gap the extractor creates in front of the bolt face to allow the rim of the cartridge to nest firmly in the face of the bolt. This trick is the first step in controlling the spent empties ejection. How do I check it???.....Remove your kit from your rifle and disassemble it so you just have the bolt in your hand. Place a 22 cartridge in the "pocket" that is milled into the face of the bolt. There should be NO slop between the front of the rim of the cartridge and the extractor claw. In other words, make sure the extractor is "pushing" the round to the side and "holding" the rim inside of the little pocket. If this gap is excessive the round will tend to fall out of this pocket and not be contacted properly when the ejector hits it during operation. ***another easy check is to hold the bolt up to the light and see if there is any gap between the face of the bolt and the back of the extractor face....there should be NONE!*** How do I fix this???....Make a note of the amount of excessive gap that is needed to be taken up. Drive the retaining pin out of the bolt that is holding in the extractor. Place the extractor in a solid vise with smooth jaws. Gently bend the end of the extractor inward to close up this gap. The extractor is relatively soft and can be bent quite easily. I used a small pin punch and a light machinist hammer to do the job. Reassemble the extractor and recheck the current extractor gap. 2- Firing pin face reduction. I reduced the face diameter of my firing pin so that it would penetrate the rim deeper creating a more positive ignition. The best form for the face of the pin is the shape of a small ball. *** The firing pin is held rearward inside the bolt by a very strong spring. I tried a weaker firing pin spring but ended up breaking the pin just after 1 magazine. However, when I took the spring out, I found it and the pocket was caked full of carbon and didn't come out easily. I brushed all the fowling out of the spring and pocket and it worked very well again. It may be possible that a carboned up firing pin spring may contribute to firing pin breakage.*** 3- Ejector tab build up. I found on my kit that the ejector tab did not stick out into the bolt enough to contact the empty case. I simply TIG welded this up and machined it back down to size. With a properly gapped extractor and a strong ejector tab, a spent case flies right out with little effort. 4-Excessive fowling in the chamber. I noticed that there was a massive amount of gas blow back coming from a poor seal from the chamber insert. Wasted gas was bleeding by the insert and finding it's way back inside of the action. I tried wrapping a few rounds of Teflon tape around the body of the insert, but it soon blew out after just a few rounds. One quick cure I found was to stack a series of O-rings inside of the locking lug area of the barrel. When the chamber insert is assembled it seals itself inside of the chamber. The sizes i used were 9/16" X 3/4" neoprene rubber rings. There could easily be a better fitting set of rings or single ring, but this is what I had laying around. ***Of course the barrels made by Kuel...sp?...would eliminate this problem entirely.*** I also noticed that my chamber insert had a small bit of in and out slop when assembled. The entire assembly would move front to back slightly when firing. The O-rings helped hold the conversion assembly in place a lot tighter. Part 3 will be posted soon.......... I'm going to cheat a bit and simply post a response given a week or so ago from "The" man himself, Jonathan Arthur Ceiner.....This is probably the most common problem I've heard of with the kits and it is explained pretty well in JAC's response. However, not only do the feed lips need to be centered, set to the correct gap and the mag adapter body be spread to tightened up the fit in the lower, the feed lips also need to be checked for the correct height. I found my magazines needed a "little taken off the top" to work flawlessly. I checked this by putting a loaded magazine in the lower and pulling the bolt back. I checked how high a round was sticking up and how much the bolt was contacting this first round. I found that the magazine lips could be reduced by quite a bit. All you need to make sure of is have enough cartridge rim/bolt contact to ensure a round will be stripped from the magazine. Theory>>The lower the feed lips, the less chance of them becoming the ejector................... continued in next post....
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 8:23:18 AM EDT
22 kit fixes/tips continued: GIVEN you are using the proper quality and bullet weight of .22lr HIGH VELOCITY ammunition...given that...Whenever the case is caught up in the top of the receiver, between the charging handle and the recoil spring tube of the bolt it is ONLT one thing - think about it - what causes the spent cast to rotate out the ejection port of semi and full auto firearms?...it's coming into contact with the EJECTOR!...it then ROTATES around the extractor and vectors out the ejection port. If the feed lips of the magazine get into the rearward path of the spent case THEY become the ejector!...sending the case up rather than out to the right. Due to use and abuse the upper sheet metal frame of the mags becomes smaller or distorted allowing the mag to "flop" around left and right in the mag well and the feed lips get into the spent case’s path. Just look at the front corner of the rear lips and SEE the brass marks on the lip!!! We use a piston ring expander pliers to widen the frame at it's 4 corners so there is a light drag as the mag is inserted so as to limit it's "flopping". Other thing that happens, is the shooter holds onto the mag while shooting causing it to sit too HIGH again putting the feed lips into the spent casing's path. Jonathan Feed lips are to be PARALLEL, CENTERED in the upper frame, rear lips .215-.005 wide...PERIOD. Front lips .250+.005. Remember PARALLEL and IN THE CENTER. Use 40gr non-hollow point high velocity or have ammo induced problems but don't blame the kit if you go against the manufacturer's recommendations. >>>>ABOVE QUOTE IF FROM SUBGUNS.COM REPLY FROM JAC<<<<<<< One of the problems I also found was a lubrication problem. If a light oil is used, it accelerates the gumming effect. If graphite is used it gums up less but is a messy situation all around. I ran this kit for over 700 rounds, as fast as i could load my mags, totally DRY......I basically had gotten tired of loading mags and quit. these units run very well and are a blast to shoot if you have the patience to fiddle with them. Another observation with the kit was within the first few mags, condensation forms inside of the receiver from the heat. The powder and carbon builds up fast onto these wet areas inside of the receiver, but eventually through my 700 round torture test it evaporated and I was ripping rounds off again. When the kit is highly polished, it seems to self-clean and run a lot longer. I'm located in WI and for the most part have a massive difference in weather from where most of you are from. The weather might play a factor in how these things run.....sounds goofy, but may have some merit. Well fellas, I hope by this point you have found the cure for your kit. To this point my kit will run excellent with a 4.2" unported barrel and equally as well with an 11" Integral suppressed barrel. The barrel length i have works very well, so there should be no reason your longer lengths shouldn't. Hang in there, the kits do work!!..........ERIC
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 9:30:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2003 9:34:00 AM EDT by RugerCal480]
No problem RG...Hope it helps. Hey Dan034 those posts from Eric are SUPER. Thanks for the post. I had a similar type problem with a Winchester 9422, .22LR. It would jam and misfire with the Remington Brass Jacketed, Hollow Points, and two or three times out of 100 rounds, a round would get caught internally in the lever mechanism, and require a breakdown to retrieve it. Mike
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 5:11:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RugerCal480: No problem RG...Hope it helps. Hey Dan034 those posts from Eric are SUPER. Thanks for the post. I had a similar type problem with a Winchester 9422, .22LR. It would jam and misfire with the Remington Brass Jacketed, Hollow Points, and two or three times out of 100 rounds, a round would get caught internally in the lever mechanism, and require a breakdown to retrieve it. Mike
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I appreciate all of te tips you posted. If I cannot get this thing to run well in the mext few days, I will begin to systematically apply each of hte steps. I fired several hundred more rounds today and it is running better. Here is what I did. I used Carb Cleaner to blow out any grease, oil, gunk. Once cleaned, I applied only a small amount of motor oil to the slide rails of the Ciener. The unit ran better, but it failied to lock up on some round. Federal .22 I added a dab of Militec grease to the recoil spring. The first shot after that jammed. After clearing the jam, I ran about 20 more rounds through the unti before I ran out of ammo. No more jams. I took it back out of the unit and wiped it clean. I did NOT removethe grease from the recoil spring. I added a small amount of 'honing oil' from a knife sharpening kit, instead of gun oil to the slides. I just test fired 15 rounds. I am low on .22 and it is getting dark, so I will continue to test tomorrow evening if I have time. I have learned that the unit wants NO grease anywhere except hte recoil spring. If there is grease anywhere else, I have jammed cases on the bolt face, and spent cases jumping the bolt. TRG
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 4:12:54 AM EDT
The Ciener seems to be very ammo sensitive. The odd thing is different units seem to prefer different ammo--what works best in one doesn't necessarily work well in another. What works best for me is Remington Golden Bullet available from WalMart for about $8/550. I shoot strictly full auto and experience about 1 or 2 FTF's every 100 rounds. I usually chalk those up to cheap ammo. After 600-800 rounds, the FTF's start increasing, letting me know its time to pull the unit out and clean it. I hose the thing down liberally with Breakfree CLP then wipe it down with a rag, stuff it back into my M4gery and start blasting away again. My suggestion is to buy a sampling of every brand of ammo you can find locally and give them all a try and see which works best for you. Good luck! I know when you get yours running good you'll have as much fun with it as I do.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:23:20 PM EDT
Dan: I liked your idea for the O rings. I picked a few up at the hardware store, find that 3 fit well. Now my conversion unit is a military M261, so we will have to try it out this week and see if it works. Seems like a good idea though. Just one question, any problem with melting due to the hot gasses?
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:40:29 PM EDT
Shotar, I never used the O ring idea. My guess is that they wouldn't melt. But if they do,there are O rings designed for high temperatures (example: a rep from an industrial supplier told me that the Viton O rings are rated to 1200 degrees). Good luck with it and let us know how it works. Dan
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 3:43:33 PM EDT
I will let everyone know my results. Nothing like taking a system that works and trying to tweak it.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:35:16 AM EDT
Sounds like the rounds are sticking a little bit in the chamber. I gather from this
The procedure then is to eject the magazine. Rack the slide, replace the magazine and pull the trigger.
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that it isn't ejecting the round when you rack it, which is also consistent with that. I know that when my revolver gets it takes a bit of a push to get the rounds fully seated, so be sure to clean the chamber out good. I've also heard reports of some bulk ammo being slightly oversize, which would cause the same symptoms, or make them worse. I use a dab of the red Shooters Choice grease on the rails and where the extractor contacts the adapter. Nothing on the recoil spring.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 6:46:54 AM EDT
I had to fine tune mine as well. Now she runs like a raped ape. I use only clp for lubricant. One problem I've noticed is the bolt contacting the top of the feed lips. This will cause all sorts of BS such as stove pipes, not chambering completly ect....It will show up as shiny flat spots where the metal has been worn away. Easy fix is to remove mag catch and file .020 or so off the top. This will allow mag to sit a little lower. Extraction problems can usually be traced to a chiped extractor. That is the only part I've had to replace in 10000+ rounds. A clean bolt with CLP will run flawless for 700 rounds or better. Bulk Federals are all I use.
Link Posted: 5/16/2003 8:48:05 AM EDT
I test fired mine again. It ran flawlessly. The one exception was a round that sounded odd, a lighter pop than normal. All others fed fine. I used Militec Grease on the recoil spring, and only a light dab of Quaker State SAE30 on the slide rails. I also made sure that I was NOT touching the magazine while firing. No stovepipes after that. The ammo was a mixed bag of .22 LR, some of the rounds were 20 years old, some lead, some hollow points, some flat tipped. A reall grab bag of rounds, and the gun ran great. Thanks Guys and Gals. I gotta go buy more .22 LR today.
Link Posted: 5/19/2003 4:53:10 AM EDT
The advice about NOT holding onto the magazines is priceless. The only stovepipe I have had recently resulted from resting the gun on the 30 round magazine while firing from a bench. Two light primer strikes, possibly bad rounds. Other than that, the unit is now working perfectly. 1000+ rounds through it. TRG
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:31:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2003 7:32:08 AM EDT by Green0]
[b]I have some experience with these-- but I have very little advice As you can see from the above advice the kit is much less than totally reliable- actually more of a train wreck [/b] 1 (make sure the bounce weight isat least as small as the bolt) [not sticking out on the sides and binding with the upper] 2. clean the chamber (maybe even polish it with a dremel- most of my jams were failures to extract) 3. Contact JP enterprises and buy their lighter than stock hammer spring for use with their match trigger- this will help as the bolt has to pull the hammer back and the lighter spring will help the bolt go back quicker and more forcefully. [with this if you really got to working on the ceiner you could even add a slightly stronger recoil spring (like one from a 10/22) and this would increase dwell time and increase the force with which the bolt returned forward to strip the next round.] The ceiner also has weak charging which that might solve.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 8:32:50 AM EDT
. Contact JP enterprises and buy their lighter than stock hammer spring for use with their match trigger- this will help as the bolt has to pull the hammer back and the lighter spring will help the bolt go back quicker and more forcefully.
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The light JP hammer spring causes 90%+ misfire rates with their trigger & hammer. I still get some misfires with the stock spring, and even the ones that go off look light compared to my Marlin's firing pin marks. I think part of the problem is that the pin is so blunt.
... you could even add a slightly stronger recoil spring (like one from a 10/22) and this would increase dwell time and increase the force with which the bolt returned forward to strip the next round.]...
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A stronger recoil spring might help with the failure to go all the way into battery, but I think that's more likely an ammo problem.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 10:42:25 AM EDT
To fix mine I shimmed up the extractor spring, deburred and mildly reshaped the extractor claw, polished the feed ramp and chamber, and lapped in the recoil spring retaining pin.
Link Posted: 6/15/2003 6:29:22 PM EDT
Reff BTT
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