Oh my Goodness.  I love me a 723.

Fleabay has been having a few older Aimpoints selling, but for ungodly amounts.

The light will be the biggest issue.

I was lucky earlier this year to glom on to a black Aimpoint 5000 on the EE here, and a proper Surefire 6P Classic and mount from the Fb CRA Rifle clones EE.

In this "game," one must have eyes everywhere at once.

True story.  The classic 6P bezel is a fucking unicorn horn on a hen that has teeth, they're tough to find at an acceptable price.

ETA: To replace a classic 6P bezel, I found a 9P for cheap and stole the bezel

In regards to the Surefire Classic, Shock Proof Bezel.
The lens in mine was really scratched up. So I made a new one.
If anyone needs a new lens I have two up for PIF.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/New-Retro-pay-it-forward/123-716502/

I have a pretty old 6P I've had on and off rifles for 15 years or so now... it was old when I bought it used at a local shop around 2000 or so.  Is there anything out of the ordinary I should look for to see if it's an early model?

Go to page 2 of this thread and scroll down. Lots of info on the early Surefires.

Remember those who perished, twenty-four years ago today.

Sine Pari.

I need to put my 203 on my 'A2 so I can have my Mogadishu rifle back...  however mines not beat up enough!  lol



Me in the middle about 20 klicks S of Mog running checkpoints.

Heh, all my chocolate chips are gym shorts now

great pic!!!  Thank you for serving!

no thanks needed :)

Was googling some other stuff and found this..



The caption reads:
US Marine COL Ward, left and SGT Johnson, right, who provides security for COL Ward, inspect an area just to the north of MogadishuAirport. Both men wear desert camouflage flak vests and the light blue beret of the United Nations Forces. SGT Johnson holds M16 rifle in his right arm. This mission is in direct support of Operation Restore Hope

Couple things..the Col. is Army and probably CO of 10th Mountain...  And the Marine is carrying an early Colt 603...with round handguards..

I remember when I was there we (the US ..not my unit) were giving the Somali police M16s and 1911s.. I saw a shipping container full of them but never got close enough to see anything other than "M16s"  I did see a large stack of .45 ammo in crates however at the ASP.

Any idea who Sgt Johnson is with?

On a side note...here is my track..

Ward was 10th Mtn but not the CO there. I think S-3 maybe?
No idea who the Marine would have been assigned to. Possibly an MP Security Detachmen

Just as a random note, I feel that it is worth issuing a small correction to something that I have been pretty complicit in perpetuating. I have been correcting it here and there over the years, usually in smaller venues/to individuals, but nevertheless, the majority of folks are still going by the older (incorrect) information.

The correct suppressor for these weapons is not the OPS, Inc. 3rd Model.

It is a pre-3rd Model suppressor that was designed and built by OPS, Inc. before Ron Allen came to join the company oh so many years ago.

In fact, Mr. Allen is not terribly complimentary about these old suppressors and their original design and manufacture--Mr. Allen was brought on board to... "professionalize" and improve the OPS suppressors and their manufacturing.

Mr. Allen does not have the exact specs to reproduce them exactly, and moreover, has stated to me multiple times, even if he did, he would refuse to manufacture an exact replica, they were, in his opinion, "that bad." Cosmetic reproductions are, of course, a different matter, but they would use the design architecture from the 3rd Model, not that of the original OPS design.

A lot of work has been being done with regards to these suppressors and some of these weapons within the last few years, the fruits of which I hope will be able to be shared more completely in the near future, however, I did want to make a clarifying post about these suppressors, as I hear them being referred to as 3rd Models (based on identifications that I and others had made years ago) fairly commonly even today.

~Augee

Nice to see that you're back.

A1 with A2 handguards is hot.  Always liked that.  Want one.  And here again, crossdraw M9....  Probably so his M16 isn't clanking into it all the time.

Can always count on Augee to deliver the clone intel. Thanks bro! 

Right now i am at a micro truckstop in Columbus OH. Since i got here a couple hours ago i have met 3 black truck drivers and 1 black mechanic. All from Samolia!
They look, talk, and body language EXACTLY like the ones on BHD! No shit. I feel a bit nervous, more so than normally. Its like the Mog all over again!!

What a productive addition to the discussion. Tell us more about how you're even afraider of black people when they're from a country you can't even spell because of a movie you watched.

Maybe it's time to go on break again.

~Augee

So were they different externally? Or only internally? Because this one always looked different than a standard 3rd model.



But some pics definitely look like 3rd models.

I usually wouldn't cite a TFB article as documentation, but the majority of this one is essentially just an interview with Ron Allen and most of the substantive information is just his own words, and while it isn't talking about the suppressors used during Gothic Serpent specifically, he relates much of the same information that he and I have discussed:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/11/allen-engineering/

Basically, Phil Seberger (his first name is, IIRC, "Oskar" or "Oscar," hence "OPS," Inc., not "Ops," as its his initials) made the original suppressors by hand, and with a high reject rate on parts (something absurd, like 50%), to hear Mr. Allen tell it. As such, the general sense was that no single one was necessarily identical, and Seberger was not a talented machinist: “But some of his self-taught machining techniques would make me cringe.”

As he notes in the interview, he was brought on in 1993, after OPS had built "a few hundred" suppressors.

The "official" 3rd Model was a refinement of these designs, and was used by the military as well, but the weapons in service in 1993 would have been (and are confirmed by him) to have been the "Pre-3rd" suppressors that Seberger was building on his own.

So, while I'm not sure exactly to which photographs you're referring, but it's possible that if you're looking at slightly later photographs, you are in fact looking at 3rd Models, and as I said, the 3rd Model was built "from" the original architecture of these early suppressors, but with improved manufacturing methods, thanks to Ron Allen. If you look at the early photographs of these suppressors, you're really looking at an evolution from what are essentially hand-built prototypes to a solid production model.  

ETA: I realize I never directly answered your question.

Basically, there would/could be some external differences, since each was individually built, but the biggest substantive changes were "internal," and not even necessarily to the baffle design, etc., more to more highly refined machining methods, etc. The 20^o shoulder to mount and center the suppressor (which is why the MK 12 uses the collar, and why OPS/AE brakes can be installed with crush washers) on was a big part of it, though I'd have to check my notes as to exactly when he said that was introduced into the OPS suppressors, but it definitely wasn't present on the early SOF-used items. One of the changes that he would make in producing reproductions would be to integrate the shoulder into the mounting interface, but to make it as nearly "invisible" cosmetically as possible, to replicate the original appearance.

~Augee

I got started on a 727 clone. I found this upper on GB and put a bid in on it and I was the only one that bid, so, I won it and decided to do a 727 clone. I had the correct A2 extanded FH installed. I got the correct skinny 6 hole hand guards coming. The upper is marked C MB.

akguy,

IF you so wish, for a more authentic look with your barrel markings, try finding a tool to put a parenthesis on each side of the C, thus looking like so: (C). Said marking was seen on 727 barrels used during BHD.

I was VERY lucky to acquire a Colt 727 barrel with the correct markings. Once I can ever get done with my 727 clone, y'all just might find it to be pretty authentic.

Updated pics, got the correct hand guards and A2X flash hider installed.

Very niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice

Thank you!

My recently built 727 clone. DPMS/PSA upper on a Anderson lower. Runs like a top. I do obviously need a period tail cap for the surefire though. One pic before and one pic after the paint. I don't know what I like better.

Nice !
Is that a big head forward assist button ?

Thanks! It's actually just the stock FA I got from MA Parts.

That's HOT

^Thanks! (if your talking about my rifle)

In regards to the type of lights used on the weapons: They are legacy/classic 6P lights.  Shock-proof weren't available yet, they hadn't even been thought of yet.

The lens covers used were the soft plastic covers with flip-open caps, often zip-tied or held in place with hose clamps and/or tape

Thank you for clarifying that.

Nice Job!

Thank you much!

By no means accurate... but surely inspired by this thread.

Noice!

You'll also need a different bezel

Yeah, I was talking about yours.  And you know what else?  For some reason I don't even notice that it's a 16"er it's such a nice build.  Seriously.  Now you're making me want a 16" m4 barrel.......

Thank you I really appriciate it! I was hoping by running the light a little farther foward it would conceal the fact I'm running a 16"er. Apparently it worked hahaha!

And thanks Tweeter, I was unsure about the legality if the bezel lol.

I wasn't being picky, nobody has a 6P legacy light these days.  Heck,  I had to steal one from a 9P

Yeah I was thinking it was the placement of the light too....  LOL.    It totally works.  I like em when they're cut down, but not being able to remove the FH could possibly be a bummer.   Of course if a guy does an SBR with a 14.5 that's just sweetness.  

Honestly Im undecided on chopping the barrel. I almost think it's not worth it.

No worries Tweeter, finding the 6P parts is hard. I'm searching through broken 6P's on Ebay/Offer up with limited luck lol

You are correct about that. I had a guy just outside Seattle cut and thread mine. I think he charged me $75.00
Then I drilled it and had a friend weld the pin.
If you can't do half the work. Might as well just buy a 14.5" barrel. But you'll still have to pay for drill and weld.
Oh is the small details that cost us so much money

Or just stamp the receiver and be done with it

Has anyone in this thread ever had success calling Surefire looking for vintage flashlight parts? I thought I heard of people doing that but I was just curious.

I went backwards from 2008 M4 carbine to 1996 M4 carbine/727.  hugely fun. 100-300m steel gongs are getting hammered by this thing. A2 sights on a carbine is a WIN! . its NFA, 14.5 unpinmed :)

I don't think you went backwards at all.......

Great build.

I change things around a LOT, but im 95% sure this upper is staying as is forever. 300m with wolf is stupid fun. i've shot it every day since I made it haha