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Posted: 5/29/2019 11:28:47 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have the studies handy of DOD evaluation of 416 vs. M4? I've put in multiple FOIA requests on this subject and get repeatedly stonewalled every time. Hence why only Tier 1 get it HK416, just like only Tier I get Crye uniforms everyone else in SOCOM Patagonia. (yes Cryes are better) Individual Small Arms carbine competition 2010 SOCOM stated No significant improvements warrant spending extra money to go to a different or better version of M4. |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 11:40:34 AM EDT
[#2]
The mere fact the rifle is unobtainium is why this thread exists..
If you could pick this rifle up for $1500 at your local FFL, it would just be another lame option in a pool of thousands of ar's. Just the parts kits are $2500.. And thats the SALE price. 
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/rifle-parts-kits/416-parts-kit-prod122969.aspx |
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Posted: 5/29/2019 12:37:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess I can't argue which is the smoothest shooter since I have no experience with the competition but I can't say the HK's recoil impulse is a deal-breaker or even think it's annoying in any way. I think familiarity, reliability, accuracy and parts longevity is probably the biggest draw, plus HK's considerable track record for fulfilling military/LEO contracts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I disagree, head to head HK416 harsher than LWRC, Adams Arms, FERFRANS to name a few, Not comparing race gun to HK416, but duty style piston rifle to similar duty piston rifles. Back in 2008ish at FT Bragg we compared HK416 to AA, and LWRC. At time AA shot smoothest recoil, since then LWRC has really stepped up their game current LWRC very smooth. HK416...no change I think familiarity, reliability, accuracy and parts longevity is probably the biggest draw, plus HK's considerable track record for fulfilling military/LEO contracts. The HK system is robust, there is no denying it but it is extremely harsh on the trigger components from the cyclic rate of the bolt and this is a known issue. For every fix that HK has implemented, another issue is created. |
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Posted: 5/30/2019 10:17:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its a matter of cost even if piston better than DI SOCOM is cheap, Hence why only Tier 1 get it HK416, just like only Tier I get Crye uniforms everyone else in SOCOM Patagonia. (yes Cryes are better) Individual Small Arms carbine competition 2010 SOCOM stated No significant improvements warrant spending extra money to go to a different or better version of M4. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Do you have the studies handy of DOD evaluation of 416 vs. M4? I've put in multiple FOIA requests on this subject and get repeatedly stonewalled every time. Hence why only Tier 1 get it HK416, just like only Tier I get Crye uniforms everyone else in SOCOM Patagonia. (yes Cryes are better) Individual Small Arms carbine competition 2010 SOCOM stated No significant improvements warrant spending extra money to go to a different or better version of M4. I've talked to folks from AWG to the Unit about the 416, but I haven't seen anyone post the data yet. I agree with your assessment though from talking with the end users. |
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Posted: 5/31/2019 1:48:47 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This has been hashed over and over and over again... HK416 is the most successful Piston AR based platform thus far. It is pretty much in the arsenal of almost all of NATO's SF forces and some standing armies (like France and Norway). So these threads are kind of dumb now...just saying... In .gov circles...absolutely the go to weapon when budgets allows...along with SCARs and Tavors....the BREN2 is making some push as well... But the HK416 owns the SF market for 5.56 right now...which makes sense...a lot of NATO SF units cross train regularly...which almost always spear headed by USSOCOM... So where are SCARs and Tavors behind used? |
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Posted: 6/3/2019 2:07:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Wasn't the 416 versus M4 testing what lead to the last magazine update? I thought there were numbers out there stating the 416 was measurably more reliable in adverse conditions, but the majority of the M4 failures were magazine related. The 416 still did better overall, but not by near as large of a margin when magazines were taken out of the equation.
ETA: It was still significant. 
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Posted: 6/6/2019 4:03:32 AM EDT
[#7]
I find the 516 to be more robust. Lighter and less recoil. More interchangeable parts with AR’s, uses standard AR Lowers and mags. A better piston system. Top rail is the same as an AR. 516 is a solid piston gun.
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Posted: 6/6/2019 6:28:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find the 516 to be more robust. Lighter and less recoil. More interchangeable parts with AR’s, uses standard AR Lowers and mags. A better piston system. Top rail is the same as an AR. 516 is a solid piston gun. |
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Posted: 6/9/2019 12:57:45 PM EDT
[#9]
OK fellas not tryig to troll or anything... but am genuinely interested to be educated..
In what way is a HK416/MR556 superior to a SIG516 or LWRCiM6? This is to the guys who really like it... I've owned the LWRCi M6 loved it (except due to being nitrided wasnt happy with barrel longevity... back in the day I used to shoot a LOT and I shot out 2 barrels in fewer rounds than it should have taken IMHO, the 1st original barrel lasted long enough the second not so well at all) I own a couple of Sig516..one Gen1 and one Gen 2.. aside from the extra weight compared to a DI (which I understand the HK416 shares) i cant see a way to improve on them. I dont like that the Sig516 is nitrided.. to me thats ok in an economy gun ... but I prefer chrome but i like everything else so I got 'em ,... but again this is an area where the HK is no different.. Would sincerely like to learn from someone who really knows his way around these guns why they would be superior in some tangible way to a LWRCi M6 or a Sig516? |
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Posted: 6/9/2019 1:09:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SCAR16 died. SCAR17's big claim to fame is that it's marginally better than our worst service rifle, and as far as I know the only .gov entity using the Tavor is the Capital Police. So where are SCARs and Tavors behind used? |
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Posted: 6/9/2019 1:13:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wasn't the 416 versus M4 testing what lead to the last magazine update? I thought there were numbers out there stating the 416 was measurably more reliable in adverse conditions, but the majority of the M4 failures were magazine related. The 416 still did better overall, but not by near as large of a margin when magazines were taken out of the equation. ETA: It was still significant. https://s17.directupload.net/images/190603/q77uwnqd.jpg |
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Posted: 6/9/2019 7:25:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK fellas not tryig to troll or anything... but am genuinely interested to be educated.. In what way is a HK416/MR556 superior to a SIG516 or LWRCiM6? This is to the guys who really like it... I've owned the LWRCi M6 loved it (except due to being nitrided wasnt happy with barrel longevity... back in the day I used to shoot a LOT and I shot out 2 barrels in fewer rounds than it should have taken IMHO, the 1st original barrel lasted long enough the second not so well at all) I own a couple of Sig516..one Gen1 and one Gen 2.. aside from the extra weight compared to a DI (which I understand the HK416 shares) i cant see a way to improve on them. I dont like that the Sig516 is nitrided.. to me thats ok in an economy gun ... but I prefer chrome but i like everything else so I got 'em ,... but again this is an area where the HK is no different.. Would sincerely like to learn from someone who really knows his way around these guns why they would be superior in some tangible way to a LWRCi M6 or a Sig516? The bottom line is that HK's version of the AR has been run through the gauntlet, gone to war and is currently in service with many elite military groups around the world whereas the (piston AR) competition pretty much hasn't been tested as long and hard and isn't being fielded in meaningful numbers. Gun for gun, one may be slightly better than another in a couple of places but it's not enough for the .govs of the world to take a chance on the newer designs over sticking with a proven one. Back in the civilian world, the HK416/MR556 has the panache and mystique of being the system of choice for operational operators so it commands a "collector's premium" and has a higher subjective value. Objectively speaking, even a semi-only HK416 doesn't do much in civilian hands that can't be accomplished with a sub $1k Colt LE6920, much the same as other more expensive piston setups so any differences hardly matter. The "look how cool this gun is... too bad you can't have one" factor of the HK416 is at play too. That's my takeaway from it all, anyway. 
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Posted: 6/9/2019 10:15:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 416 has a hammer forged chrome lined barrel that is considered to be one of the best in the world for accuracy and longevity. The MR is the same barrel minus the chrome lining (barrel is untreated) and with a ridiculously heavy profile (which plain sucks IMO). Just FYI. The bottom line is that HK's version of the AR has been run through the gauntlet, gone to war and is currently in service with many elite military groups around the world whereas the (piston AR) competition pretty much hasn't been tested as long and hard and isn't being fielded in meaningful numbers. Gun for gun, one may be slightly better than another in a couple of places but it's not enough for the .govs of the world to take a chance on the newer designs over sticking with a proven one. Back in the civilian world, the HK416/MR556 has the panache and mystique of being the system of choice for operational operators so it commands a "collector's premium" and has a higher subjective value. Objectively speaking, even a semi-only HK416 doesn't do much in civilian hands that can't be accomplished with a sub $1k Colt LE6920, much the same as other more expensive piston setups so any differences hardly matter. The "look how cool this gun is... too bad you can't have one" factor of the HK416 is at play too. That's my takeaway from it all, anyway. |
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Posted: 6/9/2019 10:46:51 PM EDT
[#14]
^ I have to admit, the more I shoot mine the more I come back to reality.
The 416 is a great rifle and all and I'd still choose it over my other ARs if I could only have 1 but it's not a vast improvement over your regular old (quality) DI gun... not in civilian-legal form anyways. |
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Posted: 6/9/2019 11:07:18 PM EDT
[#15]
I have an LWRC M6A2 10.5”. I like it. Maybe a little over gassed with a SF suppressor but it has ran like a sewing machine.
If HK was cheaper I would own one. |
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Posted: 7/16/2019 4:45:22 AM EDT
[#16]
What happened to LWRC in the mix , I thought they are a Govt contractor for certain things already ????????
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Posted: 7/16/2019 2:04:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What happened to LWRC in the mix , I thought they are a Govt contractor for certain things already ???????? |
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Posted: 7/16/2019 2:07:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also I would like to see PWS subjected to real world use, but I kind of don't at the same time since their products are still relatively cheap, and well worth the price, kind of think they are actually undervalued which is fine with me, as it makes it affordable to a poorer such as myself. |
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Posted: 7/19/2019 9:30:54 PM EDT
[#19]
During the USMC IAR trials the HK’ barrel was the most durable. It stopped being serviceable after 15,000 rounds. FN was in second place on the barrel durability test. It failed at 5,500 rounds. That is quite the spread.
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Posted: 7/20/2019 10:28:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: PWS uses stainless steel barrels, which the prevailing wisdom recommends against doing for any full-auto applications. |
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Posted: 7/20/2019 2:08:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Full Auto isn't a very prevalent choice in conducting precision shots, nor is it a practical option for many individuals in many different situations, but there is always the exception... Chrome-lined chromoly (4150 or better) steel FTW. 
It is the most practical choice for the greatest variety of situations, especially if it's on a select-fire weapon. |
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Posted: 7/20/2019 3:05:57 PM EDT
[#22]
It would be very interesting to see a youtube style meltdown video of a 416 upper... it's hard to separate fact from fiction on the gun's ability to deal with heat/high rates of fire with only anecdotal evidence and a tiny pool of owners who treat them like rare faberge eggs.
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Posted: 7/20/2019 7:56:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Yeah I'm surprised there isn't one.
And they are rare eggs in the civilian world. Is there not a bunch of M27 test data? They should've tested to destruction (unless the contract testing didn't call for that). |
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Posted: 7/20/2019 9:48:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I'm surprised there isn't one. And they are rare eggs in the civilian world. Is there not a bunch of M27 test data? They should've tested to destruction (unless the contract testing didn't call for that). 
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Posted: 7/21/2019 2:29:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be very interesting to see a youtube style meltdown video of a 416 upper... it's hard to separate fact from fiction on the gun's ability to deal with heat/high rates of fire with only anecdotal evidence and a tiny pool of owners who treat them like rare faberge eggs. The rifle also replaced the M249 SAW in many roles within the Marine Corps. The gun will work fine for anything you hope to put it trough unless you set off with the intent to break it. |
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Posted: 7/21/2019 8:04:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Let's face it. The HK416 is the most proven piston operated AR ever made. It's continued use by special forces all over the world and the US Marine Corps is sufficient evidence to me that it is indeed the gold standard. I would love to have a 416. I don't. I do have three of it's cousins (the 516) which are great rifles in their own. Why are we even debating this?
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Posted: 7/22/2019 4:15:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Full Auto isn't a very prevalent choice in conducting precision shots, nor is it a practical option for many individuals in many different situations, but there is always the exception, so I'm not worried about it, I do understand the testing processes and I agree with you it probably wouldn't stand up well in that phase due to the barrels PWS uses. But as I've said any gain in popularity would make the price tag on these wonderful products significantly go up, and I'm not in any hurry to see any real world practical use out of it anytime soon. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 4:52:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... I am not certain what you think a you tube video will prove over looking at the resume the 416 has already amassed... 
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Posted: 7/29/2019 8:41:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, but a barrel capable of handling full auto can also be suitable for precision shots. The reverse isn't true if your barrel is made of stainless steel. |
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Posted: 7/31/2019 12:42:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Start at 59:48 or watch the whole episode. Just some good experience there
 P&S ModCast 100 - Gun Nerds 5: AR15 Theory |
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Posted: 7/31/2019 4:05:06 PM EDT
[#31]
That video pretty much says it all. The one guy (I assume he is Delta) gives the best testimony as to why the 416 is in a league of its own. Anyone wondering about or doubting the 416 needs to watch. Amazing, and very interesting, stuff.
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Posted: 8/8/2019 4:07:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^ I have to admit, the more I shoot mine the more I come back to reality.
The 416 is a great rifle and all and I'd still choose it over my other ARs if I could only have 1 but it's not a vast improvement over your regular old (quality) DI gun... not in civilian-legal form anyways. there should be no doubt the 416 is an amazing gun but are the few improvements worth the extra cost? at least in the 5.56 version.. and I dont care about the 60,000 rounds test... nobody is going to shoot so many rounds without basic regular maintenance ever. |
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Posted: 8/8/2019 10:48:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that's the key point IMHO. there should be no doubt the 416 is an amazing gun but are the few improvements worth the extra cost? at least in the 5.56 version.. and I dont care about the 60,000 rounds test... nobody is going to shoot so many rounds without basic regular maintenance ever. I put mine together more from an emotional and collector standpoint and to me it's worth it; I have no buyer's remorse anyway. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 6:57:57 AM EDT
[#34]
I have a 416, and it is a great gun. Does it do anything better than my JP or my MCX? No, but it is a great gun.
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Posted: 8/9/2019 12:33:29 PM EDT
[#35]
InRangeTV just posted a mud test video.. the HK didn’t perform so well..
Just a sample of one so not a big deal.. but this remind us that the perfect gun just doesn’t exist yet. |
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Posted: 8/9/2019 12:44:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Not for the price they are asking...
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Posted: 8/9/2019 7:29:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
InRangeTV just posted a mud test video.. the HK didn’t perform so well.. Just a sample of one so not a big deal.. but this remind us that the perfect gun just doesn’t exist yet. |
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Posted: 8/10/2019 2:34:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know as well as I do they never do anything the same with their tests. The consistency of the mud, the way they put it on or handle the gun afterwards, there's a zillion different variables. I'll bet I could take an AR15 and some mud, and just pouring it on the ejection port make it fail if I tried. Sometimes they just try harder than others. That why I didn’t even mention that the DI AR15 passed the test. |
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Posted: 9/11/2019 3:41:21 PM EDT
[#39]
I know the FN SCAR 16 is not a AR15. How does the SCAR 16 Gaspiston standup to other top shelf like POF, HK416, etc?
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Posted: 10/7/2019 3:45:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know the FN SCAR 16 is not a AR15. How does the SCAR 16 Gaspiston standup to other top shelf like POF, HK416, etc? |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 6:24:06 PM EDT
[#41]
yes, now we just need the great germans to give us a good semi version of it instead of the MR556. I'm waiting patiently.
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Posted: 10/10/2019 6:43:00 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yes, now we just need the great germans to give us a good semi version of it instead of the MR556. I'm waiting patiently. |
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Posted: 10/10/2019 7:21:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They can do it tomorrow (same with proper civi G36 - HK293S SAR/TAR). All that is needed do to is to lift US import ban on "assault weapons". over here in EU the HK rifles offering is not that bad... the 416/417 is not on my wish list but I've seen some cool versions at the local gun store.. long or short, black or tan, keymod or picatinny.. also the G36 version was a nice thing to see at the LGS... but those prices made me cry
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Posted: 10/10/2019 7:29:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This has been hashed over and over and over again... HK416 is the most successful Piston AR based platform thus far. It is pretty much in the arsenal of almost all of NATO's SF forces and some standing armies (like France and Norway). So these threads are kind of dumb now...just saying... In .gov circles...absolutely the go to weapon when budgets allows...along with SCARs and Tavors....the BREN2 is making some push as well... But the HK416 owns the SF market for 5.56 right now...which makes sense...a lot of NATO SF units cross train regularly...which almost always spear headed by USSOCOM... |
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Posted: 10/10/2019 12:11:13 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They can do it tomorrow (same with proper civi G36 - HK293S SAR/TAR). All that is needed do to is to lift US import ban on "assault weapons". |
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Posted: 10/10/2019 6:01:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HK makes world class weapons. That said, I would argue that the LWRC is on par and in some respects a better choice with respect to the AP pattern piston rifles.. US made, high quality parts, excellent customer service, more caliber options and configurations, stable corporate structure, used by multiple LE and foreign governments. (US, Sweden, Jordan, Singapore, UK, Saudi Royal Guard) HK is a well known company and has a quality reputation going back many years, so it's no surprise to see it adopted widely. I like the LWRC design better though. |
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Posted: 10/12/2019 12:41:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Sure, it's the most proven piston AR out there, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. The aurora comes from like ppl have said it being close to obtainium commercially and heavy use by Tier 1 assets on some of the most high profile CT missions of all times. Keep in mind the 416 came on the scene at a hugely different time than right now with a fraction of manufactures, research, and training programs, when SBRs didn't have the reliability seen today. It cemented itself as the proven platform it is
Nothing magical, it's just a great gun that got in at the right time |
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Posted: 10/14/2019 8:42:37 PM EDT
[#48]
I love my HK416 mostly for the "flex on the internet" factor, and it's an interesting take on the AR standard...
In particular, the Germans figured out 20 years ago to use more modern, superior steels for critical components like the barrel and the bolt. GKH barrel steel by Aubert and Duval is a big part in why the 416 barrels have such amazing accuracy and barrel life despite the inherently inaccurate short stroke piston system. Welp, Hodge Defense is doing something similar with their barrels with FNH, and A&D even newer barrel steels to compete (ARMAD). Because of the built-in design flaw of a violet short stroke system which pulls on bolt lugs during unlocking (versus pushing and less strain on a DI gun) HK had to use a stronger steel for the bolt. The DI system inherently puts less strain due to correct placement of the piston... and LMT/KAC bolts reportedly use similar superior steel with greater tensile strength. The HK416 in 10.39" was hard to beat in 2006, but guns have evolved, and suppressors have evolved. That being said, the unobtanium factor and the military pedigree (in the US) is likely why market price on LE surplus HK416s has doubled, tripled. Prior to UBL getting got, HK416 parts kits were pretty cheap IIRC. Now people are paying 3.5K easy. I bought a Bronwells BRN-4/416 lower and Form 1'd it just for prop/cosplay purposes hahahaha 
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Posted: 10/15/2019 1:02:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The vast majority of US SOF don’t use the 416. |
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Posted: 10/15/2019 2:02:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Considering it's popularity in .gov circles (despite being virtually nonexistent on the US civvie market), has the HK416 proven itself to be the best of the piston ARs? Or is it chosen by military/LEO worldwide when they want a piston AR simply because it's "good enough" and better options exist elsewhere? Does the 416 get a fair shake from U.S. shooters? After all we can only get the nerfed abortion MR556 (or be rich and pay stupid prices for a grey market 416 upper) and most people only know what the 416 is due to video games and movies, not real-life experience. What do you think? It appears that things are going full circle with the realization that DI Guns are probably the best way to fly with AR's. The USMC may be the only .mil to stick with the 416 in the M27 IAR as the other services appear to be phasing it out. The 416 for all its positives are a higher maintenance weapon and not as suited for heavy usage as a quality DI counterparts. |
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