User Panel
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Since you guys like to see what's coming out there, here is our entry in the Army's M4 search for a more reliable bolt carrier group. Now this is for military use, so we didn't do a few items we'd like to do for the top end civilian market as we wanted to make this cheap an easy to adopt. As pictured here it takes all the same parts as the standard bolt and the only thing changed in the rest of the bolt carrier group is the Roller Cam Pin patented by Hogan and offered in our products via agreement with them. These will be available for sale to everyone once we get done with our testing and hear the Army's feedback. We will have them available in this configuration and an enhance configuration with a slightly different extractor design and possibly a different material depending on a few tests. We would like to offer the enhanced bolt with a lifetime warranty. For now take a look and let us know what you think. Main benefits of this design include. Vastly improved dirt, sand, and general gunk tolerance. Design also helps to auger some of the build up back out. The lugs curved shape seek the raceways on the barrel extension if the firearm comes slightly out of time due to supression, carbon build up or any other issue. Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. Slightly reduced weight, no loss in strength and this is just for the Mil Spec version alone. Bolt in "open" position http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Close-Open.jpg Bolt in "closed" position http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Close-Back.jpg Bolt face view http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Bolt-Face.jpg Enjoy! You may want to check your facts. The "Roller Cam Pin" is manufactured and offered by POF-USA. POF-USA: "Roller Cam Pin Kit" If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif Don't know what to tell you Frank, they approached us and had the USPTO paperwork. I have no dog in this fight. Just using the part. |
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Will there be a FailZero type coating option? Yes there will be. |
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Since you guys like to see what's coming out there, here is our entry in the Army's M4 search for a more reliable bolt carrier group. Now this is for military use, so we didn't do a few items we'd like to do for the top end civilian market as we wanted to make this cheap an easy to adopt. As pictured here it takes all the same parts as the standard bolt and the only thing changed in the rest of the bolt carrier group is the Roller Cam Pin patented by Hogan and offered in our products via agreement with them. These will be available for sale to everyone once we get done with our testing and hear the Army's feedback. We will have them available in this configuration and an enhance configuration with a slightly different extractor design and possibly a different material depending on a few tests. We would like to offer the enhanced bolt with a lifetime warranty. For now take a look and let us know what you think. Main benefits of this design include. Vastly improved dirt, sand, and general gunk tolerance. Design also helps to auger some of the build up back out. The lugs curved shape seek the raceways on the barrel extension if the firearm comes slightly out of time due to supression, carbon build up or any other issue. Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. Slightly reduced weight, no loss in strength and this is just for the Mil Spec version alone. Bolt in "open" position http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Close-Open.jpg Bolt in "closed" position http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Close-Back.jpg Bolt face view http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Bolt-Face.jpg Enjoy! You may want to check your facts. The "Roller Cam Pin" is manufactured and offered by POF-USA. POF-USA: "Roller Cam Pin Kit" If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif oh boy.....im getting the popcorn....who wants some, im selling it for $1 a bag?? |
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oh boy.....im getting the popcorn....who wants some, im selling it for $1 a bag??http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/500magnumnut/gun%20room/popcorn.gif
LOL, I'm always up for some popcorn....as I said not looking for an issue. I think everyone knows all the companies in the firearms industry out sources to and buys parts from one another. There are a few parts houses that supply almost all of us, we all use the same investment casters, MIM houses, machine shops, mixed with our own in house capabilities either to supplement, augment or whatever is needed. We'll of course double check with Hogan as responsible corporate citizens, but that's where we got that part from. |
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As long as you keep this enhance BCG under 200 you've most certainly got a winner.
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As long as you keep this enhance BCG under 200 you've most certainly got a winner. Thanks! We'll do the best to keep the cost down. |
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Since you guys like to see what's coming out there, here is our entry in the Army's M4 search for a more reliable bolt carrier group. Now this is for military use, so we didn't do a few items we'd like to do for the top end civilian market as we wanted to make this cheap an easy to adopt. As pictured here it takes all the same parts as the standard bolt and the only thing changed in the rest of the bolt carrier group is the Roller Cam Pin patented by Hogan and offered in our products via agreement with them. These will be available for sale to everyone once we get done with our testing and hear the Army's feedback. We will have them available in this configuration and an enhance configuration with a slightly different extractor design and possibly a different material depending on a few tests. We would like to offer the enhanced bolt with a lifetime warranty. For now take a look and let us know what you think. Main benefits of this design include. Vastly improved dirt, sand, and general gunk tolerance. Design also helps to auger some of the build up back out. The lugs curved shape seek the raceways on the barrel extension if the firearm comes slightly out of time due to supression, carbon build up or any other issue. Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. Slightly reduced weight, no loss in strength and this is just for the Mil Spec version alone. Bolt in "open" position http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Close-Open.jpg Bolt in "closed" position http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Close-Back.jpg Bolt face view http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z480/SharpsMilSpec/Reliabolt1-Bolt-Face.jpg Enjoy! You may want to check your facts. The "Roller Cam Pin" is manufactured and offered by POF-USA. POF-USA: "Roller Cam Pin Kit" If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif oh boy.....im getting the popcorn....who wants some, im selling it for $1 a bag??http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/500magnumnut/gun%20room/popcorn.gif I have been using Frank's roller cam pins on my rifles since they first came out. Curious about how the Logan design showed up out-of-the-blue... I'll stick with Frank's design for my current and future purchases. 100% reliable over the years and a design that is well proven. |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each?
They have a great reputation locally. |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. |
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Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. I wasn't aware that bolt lugs were exposed to enough heat to become red hot. Having fired tens of thousands of rounds through M4 carbines, I have never experienced a cook off nor do I know anyone who has. At this point in your thread, you may want to shift to a more technical discussion and present data to support your claims. Failing to do so may lead many to consider the thread little more that a thinly veiled marketing campaign. CAC01 we agree. Here is test data from one of many test we conducted. We tested our P416 regulated gas piston weapon system in a controlled environment shooting room (78 degrees), shooting into a snail. For our test we fired full-auto 30 round mag dumps. We used (30) P-mags for a total of 900 rounds. Our test temperatures after 900 rounds of full-auto shooting of our P416 weapon system was: Chamber 193 degrees, Bolt Face 162 Degrees It takes about 320 degree's to cook-off a 5.56mm cartridge. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. I wasn't aware that bolt lugs were exposed to enough heat to become red hot. Having fired tens of thousands of rounds through M4 carbines, I have never experienced a cook off nor do I know anyone who has. At this point in your thread, you may want to shift to a more technical discussion and present data to support your claims. Failing to do so may lead many to consider the thread little more that a thinly veiled marketing campaign. CAC01 we agree. Here is test data from one of many test we conducted. We tested our P416 regulated gas piston weapon system in a controlled environment shooting room (78 degrees), shooting into a snail. For our test we fired full-auto 30 round mag dumps. We used (30) P-mags for a total of 900 rounds. Our test temperatures after 900 rounds of full-auto shooting of our P416 weapon system was: Chamber 193 degrees, Bolt Face 162 Degrees It takes about 320 degree's to cook-off a 5.56mm cartridge. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif man this is getting good, i love the idea bout this bolt, but this topic is really getting good |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. Like I stated earlier "You may want to check your facts". Fact: POF-USA owns the "Exclusive Rights" on the patented "Roller Cam Pin". Fact: No other company owns the rights to the "Roller Cam Pin" patent. One of my best friends developed the cam pin, we tested and proved it out, then we patented the product. If you wish to purchase this product OEM, you would need to buy direct from POF-USA. Sorry if someone told you a different story, but it looks like they LIED to you. I hope to eliminate any question as to whom owns this product. If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. Like I stated earlier "You may want to check your facts". Fact: POF-USA owns the "Exclusive Rights" on the patented "Roller Cam Pin". Fact: No other company owns the rights to the "Roller Cam Pin" patent. One of my best friends developed the cam pin, we tested and proved it out, then we patented the product. If you wish to purchase this product OEM, you would need to buy direct from POF-USA. Sorry if someone told you a different story, but it looks like they LIED to you. I hope to eliminate any question as to whom owns this product. If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://www.pof-usa.com/parts/rcpk2a.jpg http://www.pof-usa.com/images/223rollercampinkit1.jpg subscribed! |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. Like I stated earlier "You may want to check your facts". Fact: POF-USA owns the "Exclusive Rights" on the patented "Roller Cam Pin". Fact: No other company owns the rights to the "Roller Cam Pin" patent. One of my best friends developed the cam pin, we tested and proved it out, then we patented the product. If you wish to purchase this product OEM, you would need to buy direct from POF-USA. Sorry if someone told you a different story, but it looks like they LIED to you. I hope to eliminate any question as to whom owns this product. If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://www.pof-usa.com/parts/rcpk2a.jpg http://www.pof-usa.com/images/223rollercampinkit1.jpg Dear Frank, If you'd like, you can fax the contract detailing those rights between POF and Mr. Peter Giefing, the owner of record on Patent Number: 7930968 and we will review it. Our fax number is 888-228-2195. Sincerely, Mike |
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Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. I wasn't aware that bolt lugs were exposed to enough heat to become red hot. Having fired tens of thousands of rounds through M4 carbines, I have never experienced a cook off nor do I know anyone who has. At this point in your thread, you may want to shift to a more technical discussion and present data to support your claims. Failing to do so may lead many to consider the thread little more that a thinly veiled marketing campaign. CAC01 we agree. Here is test data from one of many test we conducted. We tested our P416 regulated gas piston weapon system in a controlled environment shooting room (78 degrees), shooting into a snail. For our test we fired full-auto 30 round mag dumps. We used (30) P-mags for a total of 900 rounds. Our test temperatures after 900 rounds of full-auto shooting of our P416 weapon system was: Chamber 193 degrees, Bolt Face 162 Degrees It takes about 320 degree's to cook-off a 5.56mm cartridge. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/500magnumnut/gun%20room/popcorn.gif man this is getting good, i love the idea bout this bolt, but this topic is really getting good Yeah, especially when they respond to the initial comment and ignore the earlier response where I already said we believe its a remote and rare possibility which is why we aren't too concerned if we have to extend those lugs further to ensure feeding, if that proves to be an issue in testing. However, the key with facts is always to consider all of them, such as what was the starting temp of the parts? Where some of our boys are, a black rifle in the sun, I wouldn't be shocked to hear if the barrel was ambient temp close to the lower temp listed above, plus they'd shed heat slowly so successive constant firing could cause a ratcheting thermal result. Again, we've never seen it either, but when a military consultant and contractor says its an issue he's aware of we aren't going to argue as its clearly true if the lug doesn't touch the primer at all it can't cause a cook off, but again, we don't feel its a major issue either, but worth pointing out as a possible benefit in a presentation for a military contract and something for them to test. Again, we clearly stated this was an early sneak peak of what we are running in military trials, not a sales piece as we aren't even selling the item at this time, nor would we until its been tested thoroughly by us, we see the military's feedback, have 3rd party testing, plus feedback from some high end users (training centers). |
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Lug profile does NOT touch the primer so if you are doing full auto firing the red hot lug isn't touching the primer greatly reducing the risk of a round "cooking off" prior to the firearm being in full battery. I wasn't aware that bolt lugs were exposed to enough heat to become red hot. Having fired tens of thousands of rounds through M4 carbines, I have never experienced a cook off nor do I know anyone who has. At this point in your thread, you may want to shift to a more technical discussion and present data to support your claims. Failing to do so may lead many to consider the thread little more that a thinly veiled marketing campaign. CAC01 we agree. Here is test data from one of many test we conducted. We tested our P416 regulated gas piston weapon system in a controlled environment shooting room (78 degrees), shooting into a snail. For our test we fired full-auto 30 round mag dumps. We used (30) P-mags for a total of 900 rounds. Our test temperatures after 900 rounds of full-auto shooting of our P416 weapon system was: Chamber 193 degrees, Bolt Face 162 Degrees It takes about 320 degree's to cook-off a 5.56mm cartridge. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/500magnumnut/gun%20room/popcorn.gif man this is getting good, i love the idea bout this bolt, but this topic is really getting good Yeah, especially when they respond to the initial comment and ignore the earlier response where I already said we believe its a remote and rare possibility which is why we aren't too concerned if we have to extend those lugs further to ensure feeding, if that proves to be an issue in testing. However, the key with facts is always to consider all of them, such as what was the starting temp of the parts? Where some of our boys are, a black rifle in the sun, I wouldn't be shocked to hear if the barrel was ambient temp close to the lower temp listed above, plus they'd shed heat slowly so successive constant firing could cause a ratcheting thermal result. Again, we've never seen it either, but when a military consultant and contractor says its an issue he's aware of we aren't going to argue as its clearly true if the lug doesn't touch the primer at all it can't cause a cook off, but again, we don't feel its a major issue either, but worth pointing out as a possible benefit in a presentation for a military contract and something for them to test. Again, we clearly stated this was an early sneak peak of what we are running in military trials, not a sales piece as we aren't even selling the item at this time, nor would we until its been tested thoroughly by us, we see the military's feedback, have 3rd party testing, plus feedback from some high end users (training centers). you make an excellent point, the sun can really heat up metal fast, and it does slow down cooling speed |
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Where some of our boys are, a black rifle in the sun, I wouldn't be shocked to hear if the barrel was ambient temp close to the lower temp listed above, plus they'd shed heat slowly so successive constant firing could cause a ratcheting thermal result. Again, we've never seen it either, but when a military consultant and contractor says its an issue he's aware of we aren't going to argue as its clearly true if the lug doesn't touch the primer at all it can't cause a cook off, but again, we don't feel its a major issue either, but worth pointing out as a possible benefit in a presentation for a military contract and something for them to test. Again, we clearly stated this was an early sneak peak of what we are running in military trials, not a sales piece as we aren't even selling the item at this time, nor would we until its been tested thoroughly by us, we see the military's feedback, have 3rd party testing, plus feedback from some high end users (training centers).
you make an excellent point, the sun can really heat up metal fast, and it does slow down cooling speed
Thank you, and to POF's credit their design is far better at dissipating heat than a standard military M4 so if they were testing their own rifle/bolt combination you've got a vast quality and heat management difference there as well that must be considered. |
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If you offer just the bolt for sale, I would definitely be interested in buying one when they come out.
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so full of fail, this design has been tried in the past by companies with much longer pedigrees and experience than sharps and has proven unreliable in full-auto applications. good luck to them if they have re-invented the wheel!
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so full of fail, this design has been tried in the past by companies with much longer pedigrees and experience than sharps and has proven unreliable in full-auto applications. good luck to them if they have re-invented the wheel! can you tell use some examples or have any links or proof? |
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http://www.google.com/patents?id=mJ6XAQAAEBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=7930968&hl=en&ei=SdJGTrSVCaPZiAKyl6H8AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA http://www.google.com/patents?id=mJ6XAQAAEBAJ&pg=PA4&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&q=&cds=1&sig=ACfU3U3yc1qf80dde6s2xljIfnnbVixSlQ&edge=0&edge=stretch&w=266&h=304&ci=153,268,662,757 Thanks Tfod Isn't it funny how they would use our weapon system for the roller cam pin patent filed on June 23, 2009. The patent drawings for the roller cam pin clearly show the POF-USA P308 rifle, with our two piece MMR (modular rail receiver), our .308 gas piston carrier with mechanical key, regulated gas plug, oversized trigger guard, and our ambi-bolt release, etc... Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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well it was a nice try and i really liked the looks of this thing, but i think POF has you
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. Like I stated earlier "You may want to check your facts". Fact: POF-USA owns the "Exclusive Rights" on the patented "Roller Cam Pin". Fact: No other company owns the rights to the "Roller Cam Pin" patent. One of my best friends developed the cam pin, we tested and proved it out, then we patented the product. If you wish to purchase this product OEM, you would need to buy direct from POF-USA. Sorry if someone told you a different story, but it looks like they LIED to you. I hope to eliminate any question as to whom owns this product. If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://www.pof-usa.com/parts/rcpk2a.jpg http://www.pof-usa.com/images/223rollercampinkit1.jpg Dear Frank, If you'd like, you can fax the contract detailing those rights between POF and Mr. Peter Giefing, the owner of record on Patent Number: 7930968 and we will review it. Our fax number is 888-228-2195. Sincerely, Mike Mike, As I stated before you may want to check your facts. First you stated "roller cam pin patented by hogan", then you stated "hogan doesn't own the patent". But know it looks like you did your research (thank you Tfod), and now know the patent number and name of the patent holder. Lets see if you checked what you ask of me before going on AR15.com selling a new product. Did hogan fax you the exclusive rights contract to manufacture the roller cam pins for your company? I'm assuming this is important to you since you also stated" I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes". I await your response. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. Like I stated earlier "You may want to check your facts". Fact: POF-USA owns the "Exclusive Rights" on the patented "Roller Cam Pin". Fact: No other company owns the rights to the "Roller Cam Pin" patent. One of my best friends developed the cam pin, we tested and proved it out, then we patented the product. If you wish to purchase this product OEM, you would need to buy direct from POF-USA. Sorry if someone told you a different story, but it looks like they LIED to you. I hope to eliminate any question as to whom owns this product. If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://www.pof-usa.com/parts/rcpk2a.jpg http://www.pof-usa.com/images/223rollercampinkit1.jpg Dear Frank, If you'd like, you can fax the contract detailing those rights between POF and Mr. Peter Giefing, the owner of record on Patent Number: 7930968 and we will review it. Our fax number is 888-228-2195. Sincerely, Mike Mike, As I stated before you may want to check your facts. First you stated "roller cam pin patented by hogan", then you stated "hogan doesn't own the patent". But know it looks like you did your research (thank you Tfod), and now know the patent number and name of the patent holder. Lets see if you checked what you ask of me before going on AR15.com selling a new product. Did hogan fax you the exclusive rights contract to manufacture the roller cam pins for your company? I'm assuming this is important to you since you also stated" I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes". I await your response. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax Frank, You were the one that said you had an exclusive contract. I was asking you to fax it to us in the above where I also posted the patent number, and tfod was nice enough to post the google link so everyone could see. No one is in doubt that he was working with you when he patented it, just as it isn't in question that Hogan use to build your product under variance, so the fact your rifle was used in the patent document dating back to when you were all working together doesn't imply ownership, but as the patent owner is renting space from Hogan currently I'm still questioning exclusivity on it. Again, just show us your contract with the patent owner and we are happy to drop the roller pin from the offering as it was an added on to our offering and not the focus. And again, as we haven't sold any, nor are we currently offering any for sale this is easy for us to do at this point if necessary, as for us the focus is still the bolt head. thanks, Mike |
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well it was a nice try and i really liked the looks of this thing, but i think POF has you Don't worry, this is only over that roller cam pin. The bolt isn't in question |
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so full of fail, this design has been tried in the past by companies with much longer pedigrees and experience than sharps and has proven unreliable in full-auto applications. good luck to them if they have re-invented the wheel! can you tell use some examples or have any links or proof? We too would like any specific references as we have yet to see them. Again, for feeding on the AR its only the bottom two lugs that we can re-extend if required. I'd like to see the designs that were out there that failed. |
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What I would not trust is the "riveted on" roller. Sorry, just me. Why not do something like this where the main body of the cam pin goes in through the top of the roller to keep it from coming loose? http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b112/uglyguysue/campin.jpg I like it. Just got word today that there is another one out there in the patenting process, and I believe it addresses this issue. Personally, I'd like to see a ball bearing on the section of the pin that contacts the channel in the carrier might be most beneficial. Don't know if it would be durable enough. Our focus right now is on the enhanced bolt which doesn't have a requirement of using the same cam pin setup. We are looking at one that could be put in what's out there, the other is a bit more radical. Might go in both directions. Again, early stages, so testing will lead the direction. And in put like yours is always welcome. |
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Is this the same Hogan that blew out POF billet lowers for around $100 each? They have a great reputation locally. I believe so, and they are in the Industry Partner section. Don't want to drag it out but I did make one error earlier. Hogan doesn't own the patent, a gentleman who rents space from Hogan does. I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes. I'm sure there was a relationship there at some point, but again, more than I have a need or even right to know really. If one wanted to know more you could either ask them or pull the addresses for each on Google and pull up the satellite picture and draw your own conclusions. POF clearly has a fine and popular product and the folks at Hogan have been very good to work with, so we have no complaints or issues with either party. I will point out that we are doing a full cam pin rework on the enhanced model so regardless of the top the bottom will be unique to our bolt. Like I stated earlier "You may want to check your facts". Fact: POF-USA owns the "Exclusive Rights" on the patented "Roller Cam Pin". Fact: No other company owns the rights to the "Roller Cam Pin" patent. One of my best friends developed the cam pin, we tested and proved it out, then we patented the product. If you wish to purchase this product OEM, you would need to buy direct from POF-USA. Sorry if someone told you a different story, but it looks like they LIED to you. I hope to eliminate any question as to whom owns this product. If you would like to purchase POF-USA's: "Roller Cam Pin Kits", or "Roller Cam Pins", please feel free to contact us. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif http://www.pof-usa.com/parts/rcpk2a.jpg http://www.pof-usa.com/images/223rollercampinkit1.jpg Dear Frank, If you'd like, you can fax the contract detailing those rights between POF and Mr. Peter Giefing, the owner of record on Patent Number: 7930968 and we will review it. Our fax number is 888-228-2195. Sincerely, Mike Mike, As I stated before you may want to check your facts. First you stated "roller cam pin patented by hogan", then you stated "hogan doesn't own the patent". But know it looks like you did your research (thank you Tfod), and now know the patent number and name of the patent holder. Lets see if you checked what you ask of me before going on AR15.com selling a new product. Did hogan fax you the exclusive rights contract to manufacture the roller cam pins for your company? I'm assuming this is important to you since you also stated" I guess he licenses it to both. I didn't ask further, just wanted to make sure we weren't violating anyone's IP and it would appear we aren't, so that's as far as my interest goes". I await your response. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax Frank, You were the one that said you had an exclusive contract. I was asking you to fax it to us in the above where I also posted the patent number, and tfod was nice enough to post the google link so everyone could see. No one is in doubt that he was working with you when he patented it, just as it isn't in question that Hogan use to build your product under variance, so the fact your rifle was used in the patent document dating back to when you were all working together doesn't imply ownership, but as the patent owner is renting space from Hogan currently I'm still questioning exclusivity on it. Again, just show us your contract with the patent owner and we are happy to drop the roller pin from the offering as it was an added on to our offering and not the focus. And again, as we haven't sold any, nor are we currently offering any for sale this is easy for us to do at this point if necessary, as for us the focus is still the bolt head. thanks, Mike Mike, You have my number. You can call me if you wish to use our roller cam pin OEM as stated before. If statements are false on AR15.com about products we offer then I will come forward and correct the facts. Good luck with your bolt design and your PIP bid. When you need roller cam pins you now know where to come for OEM pricing. Unless you want to pay dealer pricing from one of our dealers. Either way is fine with us hogan never was a dealer and will never be a dealer of any products POF-USA offers. By the way you never answered my question, so I guess I'm to assume you never asked them for a fax of who owns the patent rights after finding out they didn't patent the roller cam pin. I would have never posted if the stated facts were correct. Sorry you were LIED too, but I need to correct statements of products we offer. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Frank, I can appreciate your reason for posting. All I'm asking at this point is for some documentation from POF showing that you guys have the exclusivity or an assignment on this per your assertions. If not we've got a prior business agreement that I have to honor. I know Hogan isn't a dealer for POF. I didn't say dealer, I said supplier. It's not a big deal as everyone in this business subcontracts something to someone. We both know this is a very small community of suppliers despite the different brands. All I'm asking is if you have paperwork for your claim that POF is the sole party allowed to produce under the patent that you send me something to back up that assertion so we can act accordingly and properly. Mike fax: 888-228-2195 |
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What I would not trust is the "riveted on" roller. Sorry, just me. Why not do something like this where the main body of the cam pin goes in through the top of the roller to keep it from coming loose? http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b112/uglyguysue/campin.jpg I like it. Just got word today that there is another one out there in the patenting process, and I believe it addresses this issue. Personally, I'd like to see a ball bearing on the section of the pin that contacts the channel in the carrier might be most beneficial. Don't know if it would be durable enough. Our focus right now is on the enhanced bolt which doesn't have a requirement of using the same cam pin setup. We are looking at one that could be put in what's out there, the other is a bit more radical. Might go in both directions. Again, early stages, so testing will lead the direction. And in put like yours is always welcome. Mike, Thanks for the information, and I appreciate your help. I will make sure my buddy Pete and our patent attorney's are aware of this. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Frank, I can appreciate your reason for posting. All I'm asking at this point is for some documentation from POF showing that you guys have the exclusivity or an assignment on this per your assertions. If not we've got a prior business agreement that I have to honor. I know Hogan isn't a dealer for POF. I didn't say dealer, I said supplier. It's not a big deal as everyone in this business subcontracts something to someone. We both know this is a very small community of suppliers despite the different brands. All I'm asking is if you have paperwork for your claim that POF is the sole party allowed to produce under the patent that you send me something to back up that assertion so we can act accordingly and properly. Mike fax: 888-228-2195 Mike, There's a patent that has been issued. So the question you have is who owns the rights to this patent? You were told a LIE, when you stated hogan owned the patent. Now you know who owns the patent, and have the correct facts now. I only wish this wasn't a issue of false statements about a product we offer. If you would have contacted us direct, this could have been resolved quickly. I will look up your work number and contact you at work. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Frank, I can appreciate your reason for posting. All I'm asking at this point is for some documentation from POF showing that you guys have the exclusivity or an assignment on this per your assertions. If not we've got a prior business agreement that I have to honor. I know Hogan isn't a dealer for POF. I didn't say dealer, I said supplier. It's not a big deal as everyone in this business subcontracts something to someone. We both know this is a very small community of suppliers despite the different brands. All I'm asking is if you have paperwork for your claim that POF is the sole party allowed to produce under the patent that you send me something to back up that assertion so we can act accordingly and properly. Mike fax: 888-228-2195 Mike, There's a patent that has been issued. So the question you have is who owns the rights to this patent? You were told a LIE, when you stated hogan owned the patent. Now you know who owns the patent, and have the correct facts now. I only wish this wasn't a issue of false statements about a product we offer. If you would have contacted us direct, this could have been resolved quickly. I will look up your work number and contact you at work. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif I'm confused. |
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Frank, I can appreciate your reason for posting. All I'm asking at this point is for some documentation from POF showing that you guys have the exclusivity or an assignment on this per your assertions. If not we've got a prior business agreement that I have to honor. I know Hogan isn't a dealer for POF. I didn't say dealer, I said supplier. It's not a big deal as everyone in this business subcontracts something to someone. We both know this is a very small community of suppliers despite the different brands. All I'm asking is if you have paperwork for your claim that POF is the sole party allowed to produce under the patent that you send me something to back up that assertion so we can act accordingly and properly. Mike fax: 888-228-2195 Mike, There's a patent that has been issued. So the question you have is who owns the rights to this patent? You were told a LIE, when you stated hogan owned the patent. Now you know who owns the patent, and have the correct facts now. I only wish this wasn't a issue of false statements about a product we offer. If you would have contacted us direct, this could have been resolved quickly. I will look up your work number and contact you at work. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif I'm confused. Your not the only one This has turned into the pit. |
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Frank, I can appreciate your reason for posting. All I'm asking at this point is for some documentation from POF showing that you guys have the exclusivity or an assignment on this per your assertions. If not we've got a prior business agreement that I have to honor. I know Hogan isn't a dealer for POF. I didn't say dealer, I said supplier. It's not a big deal as everyone in this business subcontracts something to someone. We both know this is a very small community of suppliers despite the different brands. All I'm asking is if you have paperwork for your claim that POF is the sole party allowed to produce under the patent that you send me something to back up that assertion so we can act accordingly and properly. Mike fax: 888-228-2195 Mike, There's a patent that has been issued. So the question you have is who owns the rights to this patent? You were told a LIE, when you stated hogan owned the patent. Now you know who owns the patent, and have the correct facts now. I only wish this wasn't a issue of false statements about a product we offer. If you would have contacted us direct, this could have been resolved quickly. I will look up your work number and contact you at work. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax http://www.pof-usa.com/images/poflogogaspiston1.gif I'm confused. Your not the only one This has turned into the pit. Same, looks like were not the only ones who derail good threads |
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Sorry for the confusion folks. We've tried to keep it as civilized as possible from our end. Basically all of the POF posts are over their annoyance that we have the roller cam pin on this BCG, and their contention that they have the exclusive right to manufacture, use and sell the roller cam pin, which was patented by Mr. Peter C. Giefing, an independent 3rd party. A claim we've invited them to submit paperwork on and prove out. However, it has nothing to do with the key part, the newly contoured bolt. Quite frankly, when we get the bolt head completely tested out it will be available for sale as its own product. So from that stand point, the arguing over the roller cam pin is a complete distraction over what we hope and believe is a very important development that is currently under way. As to why POF and Hogan rifles look very similar, or why the 3rd party who owns the patent used POF's rifle for the artwork for his patent app in 2009 and now rents space from Hogan, or why if you Google Earth their addresses POF and Hogan are in the two halves of the same building, or why Hogan was liquidating POF receivers, or any of the other POF & Hogan related questions, I'm not going to address those here and strongly suggest folks go ask those questions in the POF & Hogan forums under the industry section as this is a Sharps thread and not the appropriate place for POF or Hogan issues to be raised. As is more than clear here, there is some definite bad blood there which unfortunately got spilled all over this thread. Again, we've done our best to minimize it, but to little success. Back on the bolt head, the main point of this whole thread prior to the ugliness, you'll see some shooting tests coming up very soon, with video. We have a US Senator coming to our Wyoming facility at the end of the week to view it, our new rifle, and to test it out. We'll have some photos of the visit up next week, provided the visit occurs as scheduled. Either way we'll have some video of the testing up next week. Hopefully that will let us get back to the important item at hand and get the information flow on track. Again, you all have our apologies for the confusion. |
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Thw best part of that post is that youll be selling the bolt individually.... Now it is a def buy for me
I still think pof could have handled the situation with a little more dignity. Instead of tossing accusations on an interweb forum trying to discredit yall, they should have called yall or gotten in contact with yall and handled it more privately. What do i know |
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Thw best part of that post is that youll be selling the bolt individually.... Now it is a def buy for me I still think pof could have handled the situation with a little more dignity. Instead of tossing accusations on an interweb forum trying to discredit yall, they should have called yall or gotten in contact with yall and handled it more privately. What do i know Glad to hear on the buy. Our job, as we see it, is to make it as easy for you to buy what you want from us that we make and make our innovations as easy to adopt as possible to as many people as possible. Hence we'll have the minimally changed Mil Spec version, and one or two versions of the Enhanced. And we realize as cool as the full blown ultra mega enhanced version with all the innovation the would and the kung fu grip is, most will look and go, wow, thats cool $XXX bucks? Hmmm, I think I'll buy the $XX Mil Spec one, as we know the reality is 90% of the board (and the wider market) isn't walking around with a full auto rifle dumping a 1000 rounds through it before breakfast everyday, and the as cool as the high end model might be, for a lot of folks its a serious concern that if they spend $XXX if they'll have enough for true necessities in this economy. Thanks for hanging in there on this thread |
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Sorry for the confusion folks. We've tried to keep it as civilized as possible from our end. Basically all of the POF posts are over their annoyance that we have the roller cam pin on this BCG, and their contention that they have the exclusive right to manufacture, use and sell the roller cam pin, which was patented by Mr. Peter C. Giefing, an independent 3rd party. A claim we've invited them to submit paperwork on and prove out. However, it has nothing to do with the key part, the newly contoured bolt. Quite frankly, when we get the bolt head completely tested out it will be available for sale as its own product. So from that stand point, the arguing over the roller cam pin is a complete distraction over what we hope and believe is a very important development that is currently under way. As to why POF and Hogan rifles look very similar, or why the 3rd party who owns the patent used POF's rifle for the artwork for his patent app in 2009 and now rents space from Hogan, or why if you Google Earth their addresses POF and Hogan are in the two halves of the same building, or why Hogan was liquidating POF receivers, or any of the other POF & Hogan related questions, I'm not going to address those here and strongly suggest folks go ask those questions in the POF & Hogan forums under the industry section as this is a Sharps thread and not the appropriate place for POF or Hogan issues to be raised. As is more than clear here, there is some definite bad blood there which unfortunately got spilled all over this thread. Again, we've done our best to minimize it, but to little success. Back on the bolt head, the main point of this whole thread prior to the ugliness, you'll see some shooting tests coming up very soon, with video. We have a US Senator coming to our Wyoming facility at the end of the week to view it, our new rifle, and to test it out. We'll have some photos of the visit up next week, provided the visit occurs as scheduled. Either way we'll have some video of the testing up next week. Hopefully that will let us get back to the important item at hand and get the information flow on track. Again, you all have our apologies for the confusion. Mike, When I looked up your company to get your phone number to contact you I found out something very interesting. SharpsMilSpec.com The products offered on SharpsMilSpec website, like your 2010 carbine rifle and Count A Shot, look to be the same products offered by Paul Leitner-Wise, the owner of Leitner-Wise Defense. Pauls the former owner of Leitner-Wise gas piston weapon systems and has since been sold to new owners and is now called LWRCI. This looks to be the same product we seen at the 2009 NRA annual meeting & exhibits. Leitner-Wise Defense was in a booth right next to us. Paul showed me his new gas piston upper and how the rail system had a throw lever and a button on the rail and how quickly he could remove the rail from the upper. It had the same piston system as his original gas piston rifles but was able to remove the gas block very quickly. They also had the Count A Shot counter which was a interesting product. Here's the link to Leitner-Wise Defense I could tell you I was very surprise with the possible connection here. I have your information now, talk to you soon. Best regards, Frank L. DeSomma Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc. www.POF-USA.com [email protected] 623-561-9572 WK. 623-321-1680 Fax |
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Im beginning to wonder if theres not some personal bad blood at POF
Not only are they mad about their rollerpin now theyre bringning in new companies |
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Quoted: Quoted: is the modified key and roller cam part of your bid? Yes, what you see is one of the extras from the sample build What's the white goop around the ejector? Never mind, apparently it's just grease. I thought it looked like some sort of "suspended" ejector with the ejector pin held in-place by some sort of polymer. |
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Yikes, lots going on in this thread.
I'll try to keep it to the bolt design and ignore most of the POF/Hogan/LWRCi/whatever stuff going on in here. This looks very interesting, Sharps. I'm curious how it will operate. Does removing the portion of the front of the lugs there cause any problems? Does it at all reduce the strength of the bolt? |
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Yikes, lots going on in this thread. I'll try to keep it to the bolt design and ignore most of the POF/Hogan/LWRCi/whatever stuff going on in here. This looks very interesting, Sharps. I'm curious how it will operate. Does removing the portion of the front of the lugs there cause any problems? Does it at all reduce the strength of the bolt? Imagine a triangular gusset it's carrying the load on the two perpendicular sided under pressure. The outside corner is wasted material for the most part but costs more to machine it away unless it was forged angular to start with. The extra material plays little role in the strength of the bolt designs. |
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Yikes, lots going on in this thread. I'll try to keep it to the bolt design and ignore most of the POF/Hogan/LWRCi/whatever stuff going on in here. This looks very interesting, Sharps. I'm curious how it will operate. Does removing the portion of the front of the lugs there cause any problems? Does it at all reduce the strength of the bolt? Imagine a triangular gusset it's carrying the load on the two perpendicular sided under pressure. The outside corner is wasted material for the most part but costs more to machine it away unless it was forged angular to start with. The extra material plays little role in the strength of the bolt designs. I don't we could have said it better ourselves htex. So the answer is no, we aren't seeing any strength reduction |
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