User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 6:58:01 PM EDT
Victor asked me to post a picture and a excerpt from a e-mail concerning his policy on 80% lowers.
Aimless has approved this post. So.... "If any person send us a receiver machined like the M16 in the photo, or have the sear hole engraved it will not be sent back. According to ATF it will be considered a Machine Gun, and we were told to notify them so they can pick it up. " 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 7:07:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Except that BATF apparently allows an engraved sear hole on replica rifles such as those offered by Troy. Those are very nice by the way!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 7:11:28 PM EDT
[#2]
So, if we send Victor an original Colt SP1 receiver to be reanodized, is he going to give it to the ATF as a machinegun?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 8:14:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, if we send Victor an original Colt SP1 receiver to be reanodized, is he going to give it to the ATF as a machinegun? But his rules. He owns the business. I would like to see the BATFE memo on this. ATF Does not say a pocket drilled out any specific way is considered a machinegun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 8:33:34 PM EDT
[#4]
The BATF actually confiscated some lowers a few months ago, including one that one of our members owned. Troy gets away with it because their lowers are marked "Replica", but the BATF took a left turn and Victor said he was not going to accept them any longer.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 8:49:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except that BATF apparently allows an engraved sear hole on replica rifles such as those offered by Troy. Those are very nice by the way! I assume Victor will anodize for an SOT making an M-16 provided he serialized the receiver and provides the proper credentials and paperwork. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 9:10:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Can someone explain the "M16" reciever? I was cartain as long as the evil 3rd hole is missing, its AR15.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 9:36:21 PM EDT
[#7]
I see. Thanks for pointing that out. Makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 10:22:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except that BATF apparently allows an engraved sear hole on replica rifles such as those offered by Troy. Those are very nice by the way! |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 10:29:29 PM EDT
[#9]
How is the top lower considered an M16/Machinegun since there Does Not Appear to be an auto sear hole drilled in the lower?
Just wondering what this LOGIC (using that term loosely) by the ATF is???? And I do AGREE that it is his business and he can Refuse to work on any lower he does not want to work on, so that is not even an issue or what I an questioning. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 10:47:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is the top lower considered an M16/Machinegun since there Does Not Appear to be an auto sear hole drilled in the lower? Just wondering what this LOGIC (using that term loosely) by the ATF is???? And I do AGREE that it is his business and he can Refuse to work on any lower he does not want to work on, so that is not even an issue or what I an questioning. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 10:52:30 PM EDT
[#11]
BCI defense lowers are cut to m16 dimensions from the factory. Several of them listed on GB. Search BCI Lower, and see for yourself...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:04:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BCI defense lowers are cut to m16 dimensions from the factory. Several of them listed on GB. Search BCI Lower, and see for yourself... |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:07:33 PM EDT
[#13]
I think you need to look on gb, before you make such a statement.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:22:16 PM EDT
[#14]
If you look on the bci website, if you blow up the pics of their stripped lower, you can clearly see the machined shelf.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:31:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can someone explain the "M16" reciever? I was cartain as long as the evil 3rd hole is missing, its AR15. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:33:53 PM EDT
[#16]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:35:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The top receiver DOES have the auto-sear "ledge" milled in the correct place. With the ledge machined, it is a matter of seconds before an auto-sear could be installed. There is NO reason for that ledge to be there on ANY semi auto.. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:42:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you look on the bci website, if you blow up the pics of their stripped lower, you can clearly see the machined shelf. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:46:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes not one damn bit of difference if it's not in the rule book. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:48:54 PM EDT
[#20]
BCI has been well known for machining their lowers to the M16 specifications with the low shelf that allows the FA parts to be properly installed if the third hole has been drilled, there is a local shop that has two post guns as well as a few BCI non auto lowers and other than the third hole, the machine work is the same.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:49:53 PM EDT
[#21]
The pics on GB are much clearer. Looks just like an m16 sans the auto sear pin hole...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:50:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BCI has been well known for machining their lowers to the M16 specifications with the low shelf that allows the FA parts to be properly installed if the third hole has been drilled, there is a local shop that has two post guns as well as a few BCI non auto lowers and other than the third hole, the machine work is the same. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:51:19 PM EDT
[#23]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/18/2017 11:55:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The top receiver DOES have the auto-sear "ledge" milled in the correct place. With the ledge machined, it is a matter of seconds before an auto-sear could be installed. There is NO reason for that ledge to be there on ANY semi auto. Without the ledge, even if you drilled the auto-sear pin hole, you could not install an auto sear. Thanks for clarifying. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2017 8:50:20 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Victor asked me to post a picture and a excerpt from a e-mail concerning his policy on 80% lowers. Aimless has approved this post. So.... "If any person send us a receiver machined like the M16 in the photo, or have the sear hole engraved it will not be sent back. According to ATF it will be considered a Machine Gun, and we were told to notify them so they can pick it up. " https://i.imgur.com/vyKtOS3.png |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2017 9:29:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After reading several times it appears to me that this what ATF told Victor to do ,not Victor deciding to do this on his own. Question is: can it have "AUTO" engraved on receiver? |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2017 7:16:23 PM EDT
[#27]
A couple of points here.
Yes, Victor knows that top lower in the picture isn't a M-16, he was using M-16 as a descriptor concerning the fire control pocket dimensions. Yes, this all fallout from the confiscation episode earlier, it won't go away. Your questions are better asked to and answered by Victor than a gun forum, he will answer eventually. What anyone else does or doesn't do has no effect on anyone except that party, it's not "Susie stayed up late so I can, too". It was rotten luck a Auditor saw that lower(s) last year(?) but he did and things have to change. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2017 7:34:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A couple of points here. Yes, Victor knows that top lower in the picture isn't a M-16, he was using M-16 as a descriptor concerning the fire control pocket dimensions. Yes, this all fallout from the confiscation episode earlier, it won't go away. Your questions are better asked to and answered by Victor than a gun forum, he will answer eventually. What anyone else does or doesn't do has no effect on anyone except that party, it's not "Susie stayed up late so I can, too". It was rotten luck a Auditor saw that lower(s) last year(?) but he did and things have to change. Interesting. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/19/2017 7:47:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An auditor found a semi-auto lower and decided to write a new law on the spot? And it's enforceable? Interesting. It seems they determine on a case by case basis, which is why their "letters' usually only count on something specific. The people who had their lowers taken were at the mercy of the ATF. Yes, they could have fought it to get the lower back, but they either couldn't monetarily, or didn't want to, fight it, so they surrendered it. I think that it was said that the ATF realized there was no intent to manufacture a machine gun, but they weren't going to just give the lowers back. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 6:55:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think that it was said that the ATF realized there was no intent to manufacture a machine gun, but they weren't going to just give the lowers back. AFAIK, no pin hole = GTG. Never heard this shelf/low shelf garbage. If this is a new "rule" they came up with, we need to make it a sticky on every board. FTBATF |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 7:19:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A couple of points here. Yes, Victor knows that top lower in the picture isn't a M-16, he was using M-16 as a descriptor concerning the fire control pocket dimensions. Yes, this all fallout from the confiscation episode earlier, it won't go away. Your questions are better asked to and answered by Victor than a gun forum, he will answer eventually. What anyone else does or doesn't do has no effect on anyone except that party, it's not "Susie stayed up late so I can, too". It was rotten luck a Auditor saw that lower(s) last year(?) but he did and things have to change. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 9:52:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the ledge machined, it is a matter of seconds before an auto-sear could be installed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the ledge machined, it is a matter of seconds before an auto-sear could be installed. Quoted:
There is NO reason for that ledge to be there on ANY semi auto. Quoted:
I did just that, and while they do have a shelf, it does not look to me like it is low enough for an auto-sear to sit on and work properly. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:20:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seconds? No. You still have to know how/where to drill the sear pin holes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:22:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for that info, it is new to me |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:26:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
By that logic, there is no need to mill any of the area back there, just go with a web. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:28:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It only takes SECONDS to drill a hole in aluminum - as long as you know WHERE to drill it |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:29:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The sear does not sit on the shelf. The sear is held in place by a pin. The shelf only has to be low enough to clear the pin, and is very forgiving. I have M16s that have a lot of variance in how lo/hi that shelf is. Some took out the shelf 1/2 down the selector diameter, others much higher but still clearing the sear pin. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:29:59 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is not a bad idea at all. Maybe we should just do what Troy does |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:32:38 PM EDT
[#39]
I own 3 M16's and the pockets on each one of them are different in some respects, I have an early 60's model, a late 60's and a later model, none of them are exactly the same as the others. All three of mine are Colt's
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/20/2017 10:49:53 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is new to me. Were the variances that you have observed in GI receivers, or aftermarket ones? I do mine to Colt spec, but stuff I xfer for customers (pre-86 conversions mostly) seems to be all over the place, Sendra, Pearl, as well as some F1 conversions. I have seen shelf cut at 1/2 down selector diameter on a Pearl, to 1/8 inch or so over selector. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/21/2017 9:47:19 PM EDT
[#41]
I have never actually had a broke open M16 in my hands to see but I always assumed the shelf was for the sear spring to seat.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/22/2017 11:37:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The top receiver DOES have the auto-sear "ledge" milled in the correct place. With the ledge machined, it is a matter of seconds before an auto-sear could be installed. There is NO reason for that ledge to be there on ANY semi auto. Without the ledge, even if you drilled the auto-sear pin hole, you could not install an auto sear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How is the top lower considered an M16/Machinegun since there Does Not Appear to be an auto sear hole drilled in the lower? Just wondering what this LOGIC (using that term loosely) by the ATF is???? And I do AGREE that it is his business and he can Refuse to work on any lower he does not want to work on, so that is not even an issue or what I an questioning. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/23/2017 12:25:41 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ironically, if you own a registered drop-in auto-sear; the middle one can be used as a machinegun far faster than the top one can be converted. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/23/2017 6:16:22 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ironically, if you own a registered drop-in auto-sear; the middle one can be used as a machinegun far faster than the top one can be converted. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/23/2017 7:37:51 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OR, ANY drop in auto sear Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ironically, if you own a registered drop-in auto-sear; the middle one can be used as a machinegun far faster than the top one can be converted. |
|
|
|
Posted: 10/23/2017 10:20:24 AM EDT
[#46]
I was shocked at the allowance by our masters to use full auto carriers. And it was always my "hearing" that FA fire control parts in possession at the time of reciever possession is nono. Then i read that FA parts can be in gun except the sear. At the end of the day, it cant go bangedy bang bang per squeeze.
So i say if you want to do a sticky on this, make sure to copy and paste ATF docs to support. Sad when we are so submissive we begin to exhibit Stockholm Syndrome by adhiering to tighter self imposed versions of unconstitutional laws forced upon us. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2017 11:54:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Yes it's their choice as a private business. But that doesn't mean people can't criticize the decision and not send them business.
The Top receiver is not a machine gun. I have several just like that from several different manufacturers. If the ATF says it's a machine gun, they can come get them (not a threat, I would surrender under protest and see them in court). They can get my information from AR15. If we don't fight things like this, that means we let it stand. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2017 3:02:48 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did just that, and while they do have a shelf, it does not look to me like it is low enough for an auto-sear to sit on and work properly. I'm going to a gun show this weekend and will try to examine one in person |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2017 10:20:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is not a bad idea at all. Maybe we should just do what Troy does Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: By that logic, there is no need to mill any of the area back there, just go with a web. 
Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to own guns. Not a bad idea. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/24/2017 11:27:24 AM EDT
[#50]
Fake News.
A Machine Gun is a firearm that has a fully automatic capability. * Having an "Auto" position marked, or pictogram does not make a machine gun. * Having a "Full Auto Bolt Carrier" does not make a machine gun. * Having a selector that sweeps to three positions does not make a machine gun. * Having a auto sear axis marked on an AR receiver, or a "Y" stamp on an AK receiver does not make a machine gun. The test for a Machine Gun is- "does it run full auto?" BATFE can do crazy stuff to try and force that capability, but they can't perform a conversion and say it's a Machine Gun. IF you let them steal your stuff... on some BS... then you are simply a fool. It's the exact same thing as stealing your knife and saying a thumb stud is a switchblade- It's not. It's very similar to stealing your watch or fondling your girlfriend- a violation of the law by those charged with enforcing it. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
