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Posted: 9/13/2017 12:35:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Not to be too pedantic, but pistols do not have stocks. All I have are a couple Sig braces, but the shockwave looks better.
I'm considering a LAW Gen 3 adapter on a build, but they weigh something like 10-12oz. |
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Posted: 9/13/2017 1:36:45 AM EDT
[#2]
OP the way you titled this thread are you building a SBR or trying to illegally circumvent NFA laws?
Hint: Pistols don't have stocks |
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Posted: 9/13/2017 6:12:40 AM EDT
[#3]
I knew that. Used brace one place and edited to use brace in all places. Sorry about that.
I have a SB PDW brace and clearly will not accept a folding adapter in all adjustments. |
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Posted: 9/14/2017 12:46:04 AM EDT
[#4]
The folding adapter is perfectly legal to use. I would probably go with a shockwave brace or SB tactocal M4 style.
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Posted: 9/14/2017 7:07:11 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 9/25/2017 9:16:21 PM EDT
[#6]
I have a 10.5 upper on a pistol lower with a LAW gen 3 folder w shockwave blade and kak tube
With the blade all the way in flush and flash hider off measurements are 26 1/2 inches The blades thin profile makes for a nice folding brace and with the OAL length of 26+ inches a VFG is possible hope this helps |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:26:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a 10.5 upper on a pistol lower with a LAW gen 3 folder w shockwave blade and kak tube With the blade all the way in flush and flash hider off measurements are 26 1/2 inches The blades thin profile makes for a nice folding brace and with the OAL length of 26+ inches a VFG is possible hope this helps |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:29:16 PM EDT
[#8]
I’m running a warcomp as well it’s loud lol
The LAW adds a good bit on the backend length of the receiver which is why from tip of the barrel to back of the buffer tube I get 26 1/2 inches exactly |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:32:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Just a reminder remember when measuring OAL length the flash hider/ comp does not count as OAL neither does just extending the blade it must measure from the barrel to end of the buffer tube 26+ inches to add the VFG
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Posted: 9/25/2017 11:05:58 PM EDT
[#10]
I have a 7.5 with LAW folder, with a pistol buffer tube, nose to charging handle... don't need no stinking brace...
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Posted: 9/26/2017 7:16:31 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
If it's ok to do, which pistol brace works and looks the best? A brace is a brace regardless of how it is attached IMO, so a folding mechanism like LAW would be just fine. I am using the LAW folding mechanism with KAK tube and Shockwave Blade. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 7:17:04 AM EDT
[#12]
The real question which has never been answered that I am aware of is whether or not the LAW folder counts towards the OAL of the weapon as it is in itself an accessory and not needed for the function of weapon. Another gray area in my view if one is trying to achieve the 26"+ length.
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Posted: 9/26/2017 7:41:36 AM EDT
[#13]
I think you are making a problem where there is none. Are muzzle devises "required" for the functioning of the weapon? No, but they are included in the OAL if attached per requirements. The stock is not "required" for weapon functioning but it is measured in the OAL. The stock is more easily removed than the LAW adapter. Why would you think the LAW folding adapter is not measured?
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Posted: 9/26/2017 8:17:27 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 9/26/2017 9:50:39 AM EDT
[#15]
The rear of the gun is measured at the rear of the gun as it is designed and built, Period as per the BATFE. A brace, buffer tube and adapter used to connect the buffer tube are (part of) the gun if the gun is designed and built with them. No BATFE ruling states anything contrary than that I have seen.
Any speculation that parts are not counted as part of the gun or their connection method or purpose makes them not count is not factual. If a pistol or firearm is designed and built with an arm brace the brace is now part of the gun. BATFE rulings state the rear of the gun is measured at it's furthest fully extended rearward point measured 90 degrees from the bore. No special measurements are set forth for arm braces and pistols that make them ''different than every other gun''. I have heard all kinds of measurement requirements posted by members and some have educated thought into them and some are just silly. They are all just made up with no real BATFE ruling backing them. Follow the BATFE rulings exactly as they are worded. |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 5:22:46 PM EDT
[#16]
I have the CMMG MK9 PDW with the buffer tube. I added the Sig 2nd gen Arm Brace. Works great, I can adjust if forward or more towards the rear of the tube. Snug fit.
https://www.preppergunshop.com/sig-sauer-sbx-ar-blk-stabilizing-brace-gen-2-ar-15-black The black was Sold out. I got the Flat Dark Earth & prefer the contrast. It also comes with a nice letter from the ATF saying it is Legal to use as a "Fore-Arm Brace". Per the ATF letter I received: Based on our evaluation, FTB finds that the submitted forearm brace, when attached to a forearm, does not convert that weapon, to be fired from the shoulder, and would not alter the classification of a pistol or other firearm. While a firearm so equipped would still be regulated by the Gun Control Act, 18, U.S.C 921 (a) (3), such a firearm would not be subject to NFA controls |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 10:12:21 PM EDT
[#17]
I don't believe the OP mentioned anything about getting to 26 inches, nor about adding a VFG. Why this keeps coming up is beyond me.
And my post was to show that my pistol when equipped with a Maxim Brace was actually shorter the one "gungrass" posted about, all while remaining fully functional & not forced to be used as a single shot weapon. 
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Posted: 10/13/2017 12:44:31 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm using the Law Tactical Folder on my 9mm AR Pistol and a Shockwave Brace.
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Posted: 10/13/2017 4:15:00 PM EDT
[#19]
That’s real nice
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Posted: 10/22/2017 11:38:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryCan you share a pic of that thing unfolded? I like that.
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Posted: 10/22/2017 12:48:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a reminder remember when measuring OAL length the flash hider/ comp does not count as OAL neither does just extending the blade it must measure from the barrel to end of the buffer tube 26+ inches to add the VFG Please stop making sh't up and spreading it around. It is to the extreme rearward point of the firearm, to include braces as the frankiln armory xo 26 r2 (sold as firearm w/VFG legally from the factory) shows. Second: When did the OP mention VFG? |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 1:04:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First: Please stop making sh't up and spreading it around. It is to the extreme rearward point of the firearm, to include braces as the frankiln armory xo 26 r2 (sold as firearm w/VFG legally from the factory) shows. 
- OS |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 1:13:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All XO's are 26" without brace (or muzzle device) just like the original one, I see nowhere where Franklin is claiming to include the brace of current models in the OAL: https://outdoorhub-res.cloudinary.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto,w_1000/https://cdn.outdoorhub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2012/12/DSCN1063.jpg - OS Regardless, the ATF is clear in where to measure, which is to "The extreme rearward point of the firearm." At no point is buffer tube only mentioned. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 1:14:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
If it's ok to do, which pistol brace works and looks the best?  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 1:39:02 PM EDT
[#25]
DAMN IT ARFCOM.....now I'm kind of wanting to build an AR pistol with one of those side folders and brace....not in 5.56 though.
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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:06:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I specifically mentioned the one named in one of the ATF letters which does have a brace installed to bring it's OAL to over 27" (the extra inch being Franklin's design as a safety measuer). Quote HistoryQuoted:
I specifically mentioned the one named in one of the ATF letters which does have a brace installed to bring it's OAL to over 27" (the extra inch being Franklin's design as a safety measuer). Quoted:Regardless, the ATF is clear in where to measure, which is to "The extreme rearward point of the firearm." At no point is buffer tube only mentioned. As always, it's an interesting debate, and for all practical purposes perhaps a "distinction without a difference", since no one has ever been convicted of AOW possession due to a VFG on any firearm. - OS |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:23:55 PM EDT
[#27]
How does this work with the buffer and spring? Can we get some pics of the internals?
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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:33:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How does this work with the buffer and spring? Can we get some pics of the internals? That has some good pics, sorry i cant hotlink with my Ipad for some reason. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:35:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Not trying to hijack, but how about the other, cheaper ones? Anyone try those? Isaw a youtube video the other day where a guy reviewed a $30 chinese folder. Said it worked fine.
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Posted: 10/22/2017 3:29:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the LAW adapter and a Shockwave Brace. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/72296/FoldingBrace1024-340754.JPG |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 4:03:34 PM EDT
[#31]
nvm I found instructions
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Posted: 10/22/2017 4:57:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not trying to hijack, but how about the other, cheaper ones? Anyone try those? Isaw a youtube video the other day where a guy reviewed a $30 chinese folder. Said it worked fine. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 5:13:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I've seen the videos to. The replicas work fine and much cheaper. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not trying to hijack, but how about the other, cheaper ones? Anyone try those? Isaw a youtube video the other day where a guy reviewed a $30 chinese folder. Said it worked fine. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 6:57:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I have seen no letter to Franklin Armory mentioning a brace, nor again, does FA mention the brace as being part of the OAL. The X0 models are still same as ever, around 27" without brace or muzzle device. ATF letter in link: https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/ Notice the brace in the picture of the firearm from question 2 of the linked ATF letter: https://www.franklinarmory.com/products/bfs-equipped-franklin-armory-xo-26-r2 At no point is the brace mentioned as specifically being part of the firearm either, so if you call that "clear", okay. The only "ATF letter" anyone has produced that says the brace is included in OAL is the highly suspect one that keeps floating around from a Reddit post, and which looks nothing like any other ATF letter ever produced from any division there. https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/ As always, it's an interesting debate, and for all practical purposes perhaps a "distinction without a difference", since no one has ever been convicted of AOW possession due to a VFG on any firearm.
- OS |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 8:28:39 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why, exectly, do they have to me tion the brace or procure another letter when there is one that already exonerates them? ATF letter in link: https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/ Notice the brace in the picture of the firearm from question 2 of the linked ATF letter: https://www.franklinarmory.com/products/bfs-equipped-franklin-armory-xo-26-r2 In case you missed it: https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/ It is worth continuing to finally put an end to missinformation, intentional or otherwise. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:I have seen no letter to Franklin Armory mentioning a brace, nor again, does FA mention the brace as being part of the OAL. The X0 models are still same as ever, around 27" without brace or muzzle device. ATF letter in link: https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/ Notice the brace in the picture of the firearm from question 2 of the linked ATF letter: https://www.franklinarmory.com/products/bfs-equipped-franklin-armory-xo-26-r2 At no point is the brace mentioned as specifically being part of the firearm either, so if you call that "clear", okay. The only "ATF letter" anyone has produced that says the brace is included in OAL is the highly suspect one that keeps floating around from a Reddit post, and which looks nothing like any other ATF letter ever produced from any division there. https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/ As always, it's an interesting debate, and for all practical purposes perhaps a "distinction without a difference", since no one has ever been convicted of AOW possession due to a VFG on any firearm.
- OS I think most people, who the subject has relevance for know and understand how to measure their pistols now. There is the occasional poster who is not up to date or new to the subject and they hopefully leave a thread knowing only factual information. The subject comes up a lot because a short AR with a VFG is just cool. All you can do is inform guys who ask with correct information and clear up the ''made up information'' until it eventually stops being repeated. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 9:39:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.... In case you missed it: https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/... 1. Pierce does not even offer his opinion whether a brace (or anything else) contributes to OAL on the ass end of an AR pistol. 2. That ATF letter was issued before there even WAS the first SIG brace on the market. So there was certainly no brace attached to the XO26 that generated the letter in the first place. 3. Read more carefully. Pierce submitted nothing. He simply is referring to a picture of an AR he posted in a previous column with a VFG on it which he received questions on (happened to have a brace on it). Again, he does not claim his firearm reached the 26" minimum due to the brace that was on it. Since you are touting him as some kind of authority, why don't you ask him whether he thinks it counts? The only thing that will truly clear this up is a clear cut legitimate letter from ATF stating that a brace extending past the end of the buffer tube counts toward OAL. They could also clear up the matter as regards folding adapters, buffer tubes on pistols that don't need them for operation, cane tips, epoxied pipe sections, whatever. But dunno if we'll see it -- since it's pretty obvious they aren't going to try and enforce it even if that say it does NOT count they generally just like to keep things gray with FUD as much as possible. - OS |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:13:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DAMN IT ARFCOM.....now I'm kind of wanting to build an AR pistol with one of those side folders and brace....not in 5.56 though. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:24:21 PM EDT
[#38]
2 part answer due to character limit...
Quote HistoryQuoted:1. Pierce does not even offer his opinion whether a brace (or anything else) contributes to OAL on the ass end of an AR pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:1. Pierce does not even offer his opinion whether a brace (or anything else) contributes to OAL on the ass end of an AR pistol. 2. That ATF letter was issued before there even WAS the first SIG brace on the market. So there was certainly no brace attached to the XO26 that generated the letter in the first place. 3. Read more carefully. Pierce submitted nothing. He simply is referring to a picture of an AR he posted in a previous column with a VFG on it which he received questions on (happened to have a brace on it). Again, he does not claim his firearm reached the 26" minimum due to the brace that was on it. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:26:15 PM EDT
[#39]
Answer part 2 because of character limits...
Since you are touting him as some kind of authority, why don't you ask him whether he thinks it counts? The only thing that will truly clear this up is a clear cut legitimate letter from ATF stating that a brace extending past the end of the buffer tube counts toward OAL. They could also clear up the matter as regards folding adapters, buffer tubes on pistols that don't need them for operation, cane tips, epoxied pipe sections, whatever. But dunno if we'll see it -- since it's pretty obvious they aren't going to try and enforce it even if that say it does NOT count they generally just like to keep things gray with FUD as much as possible. What I find most perplexing, is the degree to which the ATF goes to insure proper measuring of a barrel, yet only states the extreme rearward point of the firearm itself for a measuring point, and how people lose their minds. Maybe if people stopped arguing about the trees blocking the view of the forest. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:41:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.... The problem is that it becomes 'internet common knowledge' with the actual ATF letter no longer being referenced and as time marches on it is "The Gossips" coming around to bite us in the rear. But certainly not nearly as clear on the ass end. It's clear that "extreme end of the firearm" includes a stock or grip, because they've said so. Beyond that, ATF has simply never opined what if anything becomes "part of the firearm" for this purpose in addition to the components needed for the firearm to actually function as designed. ATF has been surprisingly "liberal" regarding rulings over the last few years (brace, AR "firearm", shot shell "firearm" and the like) so they'd certainly maybe well say what the hell, sure, length is length regarding the concealed factor, don't care what gets you there on the ass end. But they simply haven't. And they certainly haven't been forgiving on interpretation on the barrel end, eh? - OS |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 10:43:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not to be too pedantic, but pistols do not have stocks. All I have are a couple Sig braces, but the shockwave looks better. I'm considering a LAW Gen 3 adapter on a build, but they weigh something like 10-12oz. |
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Posted: 10/23/2017 9:35:00 AM EDT
[#42]
This letter clearly states braces count as length.
 XBZms6s_d by tbrique1,
Facts= 1=At no time has the BATFE stated anything but the extreme rear point of a firearm is the measurement point, (plain, simple and easy to understand) . What reason is there to make up stuff and believe it has relevance for anyone else? 2=Barrel specific measurements (pinned and welded device) are exactly that, the way to measure a barrel. They have NEVER had any bearing on the way the rear of any gun is measured. Why would someone assume they do now? 3=The BATFE has NEVER subtracted parts from a gun when being measured. Why would someone assume they do now? 4=The BATFE has NEVER stated a part must have any certain function or connection method to be part of a weapon. Why would someone assume they do now? 5=The BATFE has many times stated how to measure a weapon and all methods correspond and relate to the way a pistol is also measured. Why would someone assume pistols are different than all other weapons? The letter above clearly states how to measure a pistol with a brace. Even if there is a plot that entails forging documents to trick someone all other rulings still back up measuring a pistol the same way. Maybe every letter is fake and the BATFE does not even exist? Maybe everyone should just make up their own rules? Making up rules and ideas with no connection to anything that remotely backs them up as legitimate (as far as BATFE rules go) has no point to it, other than to confuse people. Follow the BATFE rules as they are worded. Making up a bunch of assumptions to fight facts and reality is very pointless and only confuses people who want real answers. Does anyone actually expect the BATFE to explain every part of every gun and how it works, how it is connected and how it relates to every rule they have ever made? Unless something is specifically stated as (different and not following existing rules) it is obviously going to follow the existing rules. |
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Posted: 10/23/2017 11:36:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryI really like this AR a lot. Makes me mad I did not build the same thing for myself.
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Posted: 10/24/2017 5:29:59 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What round then? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
DAMN IT ARFCOM.....now I'm kind of wanting to build an AR pistol with one of those side folders and brace....not in 5.56 though. 
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Posted: 10/24/2017 7:31:58 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you share a pic of that thing unfolded? I like that.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 6:37:26 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What round then? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
DAMN IT ARFCOM.....now I'm kind of wanting to build an AR pistol with one of those side folders and brace....not in 5.56 though. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 7:01:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I had cash in hand ready .45ACP, build one that takes Glock magazines. Every pistol I own except 1 fires .45ACP so that way I avoid a new caliber and could stick the AR pistols magazine in my carry pistol if I had to. (Glock 30S) Take the G21's 13rnd mag and add the Kriss Vector extension to it for 25 rounds of .45ACP do that x 5 add a Holosun red dot and there's my "truck gun". Then I think may as well go 556 with a short barrel, but 556 isn't fantastic out of a short barrel. May as well go 7.62x39 out a short barrel, but if I'm doing that, may as well go AK pistol with a folding brace. I'm not a huge fan of AKs. Hence the circular thought process. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 7:29:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would be best for me too. Except I no longer have anything in 45, I've moved all my 45 to 10mm. Its hard to find a 10mm in AR platform. Then I think may as well go 556 with a short barrel, but 556 isn't fantastic out of a short barrel. May as well go 7.62x39 out a short barrel, but if I'm doing that, may as well go AK pistol with a folding brace. I'm not a huge fan of AKs. Hence the circular thought process. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If I had cash in hand ready .45ACP, build one that takes Glock magazines. Every pistol I own except 1 fires .45ACP so that way I avoid a new caliber and could stick the AR pistols magazine in my carry pistol if I had to. (Glock 30S) Take the G21's 13rnd mag and add the Kriss Vector extension to it for 25 rounds of .45ACP do that x 5 add a Holosun red dot and there's my "truck gun". Then I think may as well go 556 with a short barrel, but 556 isn't fantastic out of a short barrel. May as well go 7.62x39 out a short barrel, but if I'm doing that, may as well go AK pistol with a folding brace. I'm not a huge fan of AKs. Hence the circular thought process. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 7:38:57 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
If it's ok to do, which pistol brace works and looks the best? Start acting like an American and stop asking for permission every time you have an idea. If it is not expressly forbidden it's legal. Also, the Shockwave is what you seek. It goes great with a LAW folder. Go have fun and live like a free man. |
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Posted: 10/24/2017 7:42:58 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would be best for me too. Except I no longer have anything in 45, I've moved all my 45 to 10mm. Its hard to find a 10mm in AR platform. Then I think may as well go 556 with a short barrel, but 556 isn't fantastic out of a short barrel. May as well go 7.62x39 out a short barrel, but if I'm doing that, may as well go AK pistol with a folding brace. I'm not a huge fan of AKs. Hence the circular thought process. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If I had cash in hand ready .45ACP, build one that takes Glock magazines. Every pistol I own except 1 fires .45ACP so that way I avoid a new caliber and could stick the AR pistols magazine in my carry pistol if I had to. (Glock 30S) Take the G21's 13rnd mag and add the Kriss Vector extension to it for 25 rounds of .45ACP do that x 5 add a Holosun red dot and there's my "truck gun". Then I think may as well go 556 with a short barrel, but 556 isn't fantastic out of a short barrel. May as well go 7.62x39 out a short barrel, but if I'm doing that, may as well go AK pistol with a folding brace. I'm not a huge fan of AKs. Hence the circular thought process. |
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