I know versions of this question have been asked a million times, but can't find what I am looking for.

This isn't the perfect place for this question, but there are alot of knowledgeable people here.

The exact question is if I use a folding mechanism with a buffer tube and a Tailhook brace with an aluminum chassis on a Ruger Charger. If the length is over 26" NOT counting a removable muzzle brake when the brace is unfolded....is that kosker?

Added...so I can add a vertical front grip.

My main reason to ask is because the buffer tube serves no function other than to install the brace.

Same idea as a buffer tube attached folding brace on an AK, HK, UZI pro, etc...

Thanks in advance.

It is most halal.

Thank you, that helps immensely.

On second thought, I'm not sure I fully understood your question.

Why are you concerned with it being 26"? Are you trying to convert the pistol to a "firearm", or is it a state requirement?

There is no minimum length for pistols in the NFA.

I forgot to say why...my bad.

I want to be over 26" to add a vertical front grip.

Ah. Yes. Is most halal. Add brace FIRST.

NOW i know that Halal = kosher

Excuse my ignorance

Well.....not exactly. LOL.

Make sure to check your state laws as well, I don't believe ND is much different than MT, but just make sure.

Unfortunately to date I don't believe that a folding adapter such as the Law folder has had that particular question "does it count in OAL" answered by big brother so I would venture to guess that it is in a gray area where one should proceed with great caution.  So that said, the fed's could take the stance that it is an "adapter" and not needed for the function of the weapon therefore....

I believe there is precedent to the contrary.

And yes, the buffer is necessary for function. You need it to be able to mount the arm brace.

no it wouldn't,  it isn't need to function so oal wouldn't matter. brace wouldn't count

Unfolded folding stocks count in OAL for rifles - see IMI Uzi B.  Under 26" folded, still a rifle.

Benchbender nailed it IMO.  You count the length of a rifle stock with the stock fully extended, folding or telescoping.  A 10-22 with a Butler Creek folding stock is measured with it extended on the Federal level (check state laws), and there is no mechanical reason to extend the stock on the 10-22.  Therefore, it is reasonable (uh oh, dealing with the NFA, I know) that an extension that is more or less permanently attached would count also when measuring a Firearm.  I would not think the extension for the brace is going to be just simply screwed on like a muzzle device.  I would assume it has some sort of secure secure mounting system, like a caste nut, that while not permanent like being welded on, is more permanent than just being screwed on like a muzzle device.

To clarify a little, it wouls be basically the same as my current one, but the chassis has a little longer nose and it would be a 10" bull barrel with thread protector.




The brace, tube, folding hinge all need tools to remove.

What stock is that?

It's a pistol tube with a Gear Head Works tailhook brace

So I seriously just finally registered for an account so that I did not have to ask the almighty one to make inquiries for me. Thanks B! What chassis is that 10/22 sitting in. My google fu brought up mostly butler creek side folders and not the chassis I'm seeing here.

NO BUENO, you would be creating an AOW.. Anybody feel free to correct me if I am wrong (I would like to be so I can add a VFG to my Scorpion)

Benchbender- "Unfolded folding stocks count in OAL for rifles - see IMI Uzi B. Under 26" folded, still a rifle."
Big-bore- "You count the length of a rifle stock with the stock fully extended, folding or telescoping"

Your brace is not a stock, therefore it would not fall under OAL measurement by definition.... one exception to this would be if the brace was required to function then you would measure from the end of the buffer (Franklin Armory XO-26) or it was permanently attached to the firearm. (assuming the same definition applies to barrels permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over)

Black Aces got around this by building the receiver as a "firearm"

Source

I was actually researching this last night. Not gonna track down the relevant links/letters, but the ATF stance was that OAL is calculated by measuring from the rearmost end of the brace to the furthest forward point of the barrel (or flash hider IF permanently affixed). If that length is over 26 inches, you're good to add a vertical grip. But, my understanding is, the weapon is no longer considered a "pistol", so you in turn lose any benefits related to the gun being classified as such. For some people in some states, that means no concealment in a vehicle, no leaving it loaded, etc.

VFG may be a no go. Since a brace is not a stock, and officially measuring oal of a pistol with an ajustable brace hasnt come up yet. Sucks we need atf rulings just to be safe.

The fab defense ptk is an afg, but it feels just as comfortable as a vfg imo.

I have never seen anything that says a part is not counted unless it is needed for the gun to function. This is just made up stuff.
That being said, arm braces and the tube/ adapters needed to use them are a common pistol part now and (are needed) to fire a 6 pound pistol safely. A buffer tube is needed to mount a brace even on a non AR pistol and is certainly part of the gun. Many guns, AR or not come from the factory with pistol tubes and braces and are a necessary part to fire the gun one handed as intended with a pistol. An adapter would be no different.
Before arm braces were a common and factory designed part of pistols people made up rules out of fear. Arm braces (are a necessary part) of pistols and the mounting tube is also.

There are specific ATF statements that say a brace DOES count toward OAL and DOES allow the use of a VFG if the entire package is over 26 inches.

I've been wondering about this. With SB pdw brace extended my 10.5" pistol is over 26"- with it closed it is not.

Not a huge fan of VFgs anyway, but it would be nice to know.

Would certainly like to see one as relates to any handgun.

- OS

A brace mounted to a buffer tube itself doesnt count from what i remember. However the end of the buffer tube would count, so make sure that it is over 26" in length before the brace.

A good example is the Black aces tactical shotguns, 8" barrel, folding AR buffer tube with brace on it, comes in at something like 34" total, but thats to the end of the brace, however the buffer tube the brace is mounted too is over 26".

An MP5 fullsize with the SB tactical folding brace is over 26" OAL.

Measurement is from the end of the buffer tube to the barrel's crown, unless the muzzle device is pinned and welded.

The above is taking into consideration that the weapon in question NEEDS a buffer tube to house a buffer and spring for operation.

Please show me a statement that says a buffer tube or adapter does not count as length unless it is needed for mechanical operation of the pistol or rifle.
The buffer is obviously ''needed'' to mount most braces on and hold the pistol as it is intended to be fired with an arm brace. Needing a buffer tube to mount a brace or stock and needing it to make a gun mechanically function are different. I have never seen anything that states the tube must contain functioning parts for it to count and I do not believe such a statement exists.
Many non AR pistols come from the factory with braces attached and are intended to be used as a means to hold and fire a heavy pistol correctly with one hand. An arm brace (is part of modern pistols) even if some people refuse to except them as such. ''An armbrace is to a pistol as a stock is to a rifle''. Stocks count as overall length to a rifle even if no mechanical parts are housed in the stock, why would someone just assume an arm brace is different? Fear and misinformation?  
Again= Nowhere I have seen does it state a guns length stops at the furthest rear point that houses mechanical parts.

On the barrel end of a gun the length stops at the muzzle or ''permanently attached device'' to the muzzle, we all know about pinned / welded. The rear ends at the rear of a stock or brace in it's ''attached'' or fully extended position. I have also never seen anything that states any specific means of attaching a stock or brace permanently to a gun. Obviously the stock and or brace is often needed to be removed to clean or repair a gun so permanent as it applies to the rear only means connected and has no specific method other than the ''manufactures intended method''.
Any information that contradicts this is either (made up) or I have never seen it. If such info exists I am sorry for stating otherwise and am genuinely interested and need to know for my own safety.  I am very interested in someone posting factual information or BATFE letters that show information other than I have stated.  Making up rules out of fear or misinformation is very different than actual fact, I care only for fact.
Many people including myself rely on AR15.com as a means to attaining factual information and BATFE statements on legality of their firearms so stating and knowing (actual facts) is important.

Both of the guns below are over 26'' overall length and have vertical front grips. Both are legally configured firearms although only the AR ''needs'' the buffer to function mechanically.




These pistols are under 26'' overall length ''counting the braces'' and adding a VFG is a no no. Thus the angled front grip.

Stocks are measured as part of the firearms OAL, according to the ATF, at their most extended position.

Given that, the OAL for a folding stock would be with the stock at it's most extended position as well.

Seems clear given that.

You do not measure a AR's OAL with the stock collapsed for the purposes of ATF OAL.

If no stock, BATF has always stated it as the "extreme rearward point of the firearm", simple as that. The question of just what can qualify as being part of the firearm itself on the rear has never been really addressed.


- OS

It's a fairly straight forward situation that gets confusing by people making up rules that do not exist or even make sense.
Tires are only part of a car if they are inflated above 40psi. A hat is only considered a hat if attached to a head . A dogs height is measured at the shoulder unless one leg is missing, at that point it is no longer a dog and the height is measured at the ear but only on Thursdays.
Etc.

To be fair, BATFE's rules don't make sense and shouldn't exist, so it's understandable folks get confused.

Although I agree the BATFE is a pain I also think they are generally straight forward with their rulings. They change their mind sometimes though.

It's usually people taking something simple and straight forward and twisting and forcing their own thoughts upon it that makes the BATFE seem complicated. I do wish the BATFE would go into better detail and explain rulings further so people would not feel a need to ask thousands of questions or be unsure of details. Foreseeing questions and giving the answers up front in the original letters would be nice.
The BATFE will make a simple statement like = This is a gun. People refuse to take it as it is worded and ask if the barrel, stock, sight, grip etc. are still part of the gun. The answer is obviously yes, everything is part of the gun but people are not satisfied until they know every detail. Assuming something is different than how it's worded or needing more detail is the misunderstanding and the reason people get upset.

Seems I got my ideas mixed up a bit. The ATF info I was thinking about had to do with the classification of pistol vs firearm.
It spoke about extension tubes, spacers or items being used for no other purpose than to extend the length to 26"+

I'm not going to get in this pissing match, hell, the ATF can't even seem to keep their ideas straight on this.

What classification does the Larue "handstop" fall under?

It's not a grip at all so it would be fine on a pistol.