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Posted: 10/18/2013 3:32:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Spikes pistol buffer tube worked perfectly with my sb15
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Posted: 10/18/2013 3:53:24 PM EDT
[#2]
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I thought the overall length was measured from the shortest possible extension of the stock? Nope, not federally. Which you'd know if you read the doc I posted a few posts previously. 
- OS |
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Posted: 10/18/2013 4:00:04 PM EDT
[#3]
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Nope, not federally. Which you'd know if you read the doc I posted a few posts previously.
- OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I thought the overall length was measured from the shortest possible extension of the stock? Nope, not federally. Which you'd know if you read the doc I posted a few posts previously.
- OS Damn those reading skills! ;-) Will double back and re-read. |
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Posted: 10/18/2013 8:48:47 PM EDT
[#4]
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ATF measures overall length with stock in longest extended position period, whether retractable or folding, pinning is not a factor. Some states do not, however, such as Michigan, and of course some states you cannot have an adjustable stock at all. Nothing except a stock on one end and muzzle device on the other is mentioned as contributing to legal OAL in any ATF documentation that I've ever seen. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Brace is considered an accessory and is not considered in the OAL of the weapon very much the same way a removable flash hider is not not considered in the overall length. Shit I was told differently at a shop near me that specialized in NFA items. May have to check on that. Find any ATF documentation stating that anything but a stock counts toward OAL on the rear end of firearm past the necessary operating parts. That was my point. - OS You can count the retracted stock if it is permanently pinned to the open position. ... ATF measures overall length with stock in longest extended position period, whether retractable or folding, pinning is not a factor. Some states do not, however, such as Michigan, and of course some states you cannot have an adjustable stock at all. Nothing except a stock on one end and muzzle device on the other is mentioned as contributing to legal OAL in any ATF documentation that I've ever seen. - OS Wow, I just read the letter in its entirety  and I have sworn I read that the OAL was determined by the shortest stock position. I wonder if I read it incorrectly many years ago or it has changed...either way I am happy.
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Posted: 10/19/2013 7:15:16 AM EDT
[#5]
VFG for everyone with this thing now?
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Posted: 10/19/2013 9:53:03 AM EDT
[#6]
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VFG for everyone with this thing now? If OAL is over 26", sure, why not ?
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Posted: 10/19/2013 10:46:25 AM EDT
[#7]
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If OAL is over 26", sure, why not ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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VFG for everyone with this thing now? If OAL is over 26", sure, why not ? does it count if its only half way on? |
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Posted: 10/19/2013 8:19:01 PM EDT
[#8]
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does it count if its only half way on? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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VFG for everyone with this thing now? If OAL is over 26", sure, why not ? does it count if its only half way on? Not sure if the brace counts for OAL since measurement refer to an integral part of the firearm, such as a telescoping stock. The SB15 is not a stock so my opinion is as good as yours. I wouldn't count it personally. My current setup has a pistol buffer tube and a 12.5" barrel. Base of the tube to the tip of the muzzle (excluding the flash hider) measures around 26.25". This makes mine within the same spec as the Franklin Armory XO-26 for an OAL standpoint. I do expect that range masters uneducated with these recent ATF letters will question my gear when I show up, so I actually printed out the 2 ATF letters and stuffed inside the grip storage - just in case. |
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Posted: 10/19/2013 8:53:43 PM EDT
[#9]
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Not sure if the brace counts for OAL since measurement refer to an integral part of the firearm, such as a telescoping stock. The SB15 is not a stock so my opinion is as good as yours. I wouldn't count it personally. ... Yep. I'll repeat: Find any ATF documentation stating that anything but a stock counts toward OAL on the rear end of firearm past the necessary operating parts. - OS |
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Posted: 10/19/2013 9:59:04 PM EDT
[#10]
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Yep. I'll repeat: Find any ATF documentation stating that anything but a stock counts toward OAL on the rear end of firearm past the necessary operating parts. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure if the brace counts for OAL since measurement refer to an integral part of the firearm, such as a telescoping stock. The SB15 is not a stock so my opinion is as good as yours. I wouldn't count it personally. ... Yep. I'll repeat: Find any ATF documentation stating that anything but a stock counts toward OAL on the rear end of firearm past the necessary operating parts. - OS I hear you, but I'm not the one who would test that theory. I would certainly like an ATF letter to back it up though. |
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Posted: 10/19/2013 10:19:39 PM EDT
[#11]
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I hear you, but I'm not the one who would test that theory. I would certainly like an ATF letter to back it up though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure if the brace counts for OAL since measurement refer to an integral part of the firearm, such as a telescoping stock. The SB15 is not a stock so my opinion is as good as yours. I wouldn't count it personally. ... Yep. I'll repeat: Find any ATF documentation stating that anything but a stock counts toward OAL on the rear end of firearm past the necessary operating parts. - OS I hear you, but I'm not the one who would test that theory. I would certainly like an ATF letter to back it up though. Letter I posted on second page says exactly how ATF measures OAL. Since only a stock is mentioned in the equation, seems logical to me to assume that only a stock counts, if they want to play hard ball. - OS |
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Posted: 10/20/2013 7:38:03 AM EDT
[#12]
so if you throw a stock and AFG on a pistol over 26" its legal? even though the barrel would be shorter then 14.5"?
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Posted: 10/20/2013 8:01:03 AM EDT
[#13]
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so if you throw a stock and AFG on a pistol over 26" its legal? even though the barrel would be shorter then 14.5"? Barrel length is quite specific. Under 16" it must be a pistol/firearm configuration with no stock. |
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Posted: 10/20/2013 8:24:10 AM EDT
[#14]
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Barrel length is quite specific. Under 16" it must be a pistol/firearm configuration with no stock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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so if you throw a stock and AFG on a pistol over 26" its legal? even though the barrel would be shorter then 14.5"? Barrel length is quite specific. Under 16" it must be a pistol/firearm configuration with no stock. Thats what I thought. but if over 26" VFGs are gtg regardless? |
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Posted: 10/20/2013 10:27:07 AM EDT
[#15]
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Thats what I thought. but if over 26" VFGs are gtg regardless? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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so if you throw a stock and AFG on a pistol over 26" its legal? even though the barrel would be shorter then 14.5"? Barrel length is quite specific. Under 16" it must be a pistol/firearm configuration with no stock. Thats what I thought. but if over 26" VFGs are gtg regardless? First, you said AFG the first time, which is legal at any length. But yes, again, if 26" or more legal length, VFG is okay. And again2, if muzzle device is needed to count in length, must be permanently installed. And again3, best of luck assuming that anything but a stock counts toward legal length on buffer end. - OS |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 1:57:45 PM EDT
[#16]
back to the original topic-
anybody use the Sig brace with a Vltor receiver tube? testimonials please... thank you, |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 6:17:26 PM EDT
[#17]
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back to the original topic- anybody use the Sig brace with a Vltor receiver tube? testimonials please... thank you, Yes, I do. Just cut, or grind away the rail that the normal stock would adjust it's length on & you're in business. Best practice would be to chuck it up in a lathe, if you have access to one. Good luck |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 6:00:09 AM EDT
[#18]
I was hoping to use a leftover A2 receiver extension on my pistol build to save some money and give myself a bigger LOP with the SB-15 brace.
And I just realized I have a problem. Without a rear CAR style plate, there is nothing to hold in the takedown pin detent and spring, but with a plate, the A2 tube does not thread far enough into the lower to retain the buffer retainer pin. Reading up, most seem to think it's not a critical part as long as you don't mind the buffer and spring riding forward to the hammer when you open the AR up, but I've seen others insist it's critical. Thoughts? |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:51:42 AM EDT
[#19]
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I was hoping to use a leftover A2 receiver extension on my pistol build to save some money and give myself a bigger LOP with the SB-15 brace. And I just realized I have a problem. Without a rear CAR style plate, there is nothing to hold in the takedown pin detent and spring, but with a plate, the A2 tube does not thread far enough into the lower to retain the buffer retainer pin. Reading up, most seem to think it's not a critical part as long as you don't mind the buffer and spring riding forward to the hammer when you open the AR up, but I've seen others insist it's critical. Thoughts? Use a 4-40 tap & thread the hole that the takedown spring & detent goes into. Cut a portion of the spring corresponding to the length of the set screw you are using to plug the hole. That way you don't need the end plate. Best way to cut the spring is to use a Dremel cutoff wheel, not wire cutters. There is some instructions with pictures, somewhere on the site. Good luck |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:52:13 AM EDT
[#20]
This is the takedown pin solution. I've done it and it works perfect.
https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/kns-250-psh-bttn-rear-take-dwn-pn-10587.html |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:24:31 PM EDT
[#21]
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This is the takedown pin solution. I've done it and it works perfect. https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/kns-250-psh-bttn-rear-take-dwn-pn-10587.html That's the wrong picture there in link, btw, shows KNS front pivot pin -- somehow it has been propagated around to many vendors. The actual rear take down pin is: 
And yes it works great, very simple solution. Only minor drawback is that pin is of course not retained, so can be lost unlike a captive one. - OS |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:29:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Is there an ATF letter about extending a buffer tube?
I'd like to set up a pistol or "firearm" with a 26" OAL using a 10" barrek. I want it short, compact, and have the ability to run a VFG. Has the ATF made any coment on using an extra long buffer tube? I tought of welding on a 3-4" extension so it would be solid and non adjustable. |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:31:05 PM EDT
[#23]
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That's the wrong picture there in link, btw, shows KNS front pivot pin -- somehow it has been propagated around to many vendors. The actual rear take down pin is: http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_923000039_1.jpg And yes it works great, very simple solution. Only minor drawback is that pin is of course not retained, so can be lost unlike a captive one. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is the takedown pin solution. I've done it and it works perfect. https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/kns-250-psh-bttn-rear-take-dwn-pn-10587.html That's the wrong picture there in link, btw, shows KNS front pivot pin -- somehow it has been propagated around to many vendors. The actual rear take down pin is: http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_923000039_1.jpg And yes it works great, very simple solution. Only minor drawback is that pin is of course not retained, so can be lost unlike a captive one. - OS I guess it could be lost...but I've been using it for quite some time. It's a push pin so when you field strip the gun, I guess you could lose it...but I've never seen that pin come out during fire. |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:41:30 PM EDT
[#24]
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I guess it could be lost...but I've been using it for quite some time. It's a push pin so when you field strip the gun, I guess you could lose it...but I've never seen that pin come out during fire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is the takedown pin solution. I've done it and it works perfect. https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/kns-250-psh-bttn-rear-take-dwn-pn-10587.html That's the wrong picture there in link, btw, shows KNS front pivot pin -- somehow it has been propagated around to many vendors. The actual rear take down pin is: http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_923000039_1.jpg And yes it works great, very simple solution. Only minor drawback is that pin is of course not retained, so can be lost unlike a captive one. - OS I guess it could be lost...but I've been using it for quite some time. It's a push pin so when you field strip the gun, I guess you could lose it...but I've never seen that pin come out during fire. Yeah, just meant could lose it when you take it out, they are just as secure during use as conventional pin arrangement. - OS |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:46:07 PM EDT
[#25]
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Is there an ATF letter about extending a buffer tube? I'd like to set up a pistol or "firearm" with a 26" OAL using a 10" barrek. I want it short, compact, and have the ability to run a VFG. Has the ATF made any coment on using an extra long buffer tube? I tought of welding on a 3-4" extension so it would be solid and non adjustable. I've never seen any ATF doc that suggested anything but a stock contributes to legal OAL on butt end beyond standard spec operating receiver extension. Even things like rubber can tips, which have been ruled legal, have not been stated to also count toward OAL. - OS |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:50:43 PM EDT
[#26]
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I've never seen any ATF doc that suggested anything but a stock contributes to legal OAL on butt end beyond standard spec operating receiver extension. Even things like rubber can tips, which have been ruled legal, have not been stated to also count toward OAL. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is there an ATF letter about extending a buffer tube? I'd like to set up a pistol or "firearm" with a 26" OAL using a 10" barrek. I want it short, compact, and have the ability to run a VFG. Has the ATF made any coment on using an extra long buffer tube? I tought of welding on a 3-4" extension so it would be solid and non adjustable. I've never seen any ATF doc that suggested anything but a stock contributes to legal OAL on butt end beyond standard spec operating receiver extension. Even things like rubber can tips, which have been ruled legal, have not been stated to also count toward OAL. - OS The buffer tube on an AR pistol is considered part of OAL as it is an integral part of the weapon and not an accessory. |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 1:08:13 PM EDT
[#27]
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The buffer tube on an AR pistol is considered part of OAL as it is an integral part of the weapon and not an accessory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is there an ATF letter about extending a buffer tube? I'd like to set up a pistol or "firearm" with a 26" OAL using a 10" barrek. I want it short, compact, and have the ability to run a VFG. Has the ATF made any coment on using an extra long buffer tube? I tought of welding on a 3-4" extension so it would be solid and non adjustable. I've never seen any ATF doc that suggested anything but a stock contributes to legal OAL on butt end beyond standard spec operating receiver extension. Even things like rubber can tips, which have been ruled legal, have not been stated to also count toward OAL. - OS The buffer tube on an AR pistol is considered part of OAL as it is an integral part of the weapon and not an accessory. Yes of course, but adding length beyond its basic spec, even permanently with welding, may well not be seen as such, was question to which I was responding. - OS |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 11:23:49 PM EDT
[#28]
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Yes of course, but adding length beyond its basic spec, even permanently with welding, may well not be seen as such, was question to which I was responding. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is there an ATF letter about extending a buffer tube? I'd like to set up a pistol or "firearm" with a 26" OAL using a 10" barrek. I want it short, compact, and have the ability to run a VFG. Has the ATF made any coment on using an extra long buffer tube? I tought of welding on a 3-4" extension so it would be solid and non adjustable. I've never seen any ATF doc that suggested anything but a stock contributes to legal OAL on butt end beyond standard spec operating receiver extension. Even things like rubber can tips, which have been ruled legal, have not been stated to also count toward OAL. - OS The buffer tube on an AR pistol is considered part of OAL as it is an integral part of the weapon and not an accessory. Yes of course, but adding length beyond its basic spec, even permanently with welding, may well not be seen as such, was question to which I was responding. - OS Meh. There are many lengths of extension tubes/buffer systems to choose from. |
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Posted: 10/31/2013 11:59:37 PM EDT
[#29]
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Meh. There are many lengths of extension tubes/buffer systems to choose from. Yeah, there's that vast array of choices for extra length -- rifle instead of carbine. - OS |
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Posted: 11/1/2013 10:07:09 AM EDT
[#30]
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Yeah, there's that vast array of choices for extra length -- rifle instead of carbine. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Meh. There are many lengths of extension tubes/buffer systems to choose from. Yeah, there's that vast array of choices for extra length -- rifle instead of carbine. - OS Would an A2 buffer tube and a 10" barrel give me an AOL of 26" or greater? |
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Posted: 11/1/2013 11:23:39 AM EDT
[#31]
The upper is 7 1/4", A2 buffer tube/receiver extension is 9 1/2" screwed in.
So that's 16 3/4" IIRC, the breechface to the muzzle threads that the 10" is counted from is about 1/2 to 3/4" inside the upper, so I'd say to make the barrel count for 9 1/4" to err on the side of caution. So that just barely makes it. Of course you could pin & weld the muzzle device you've chosen if it comes up short. |
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Posted: 11/1/2013 1:59:36 PM EDT
[#32]
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The upper is 7 1/4", A2 buffer tube/receiver extension is 9 1/2" screwed in. So that's 16 3/4" IIRC, the breechface to the muzzle threads that the 10" is counted from is about 1/2 to 3/4" inside the upper, so I'd say to make the barrel count for 9 1/4" to err on the side of caution. So that just barely makes it. Of course you could pin & weld the muzzle device you've chosen if it comes up short. Yeah, it would be close one way or the other not counting muzzle device. Really close. Don't scratch off any paint on end of buffer. :) - OS |
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