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Posted: 3/19/2006 10:08:54 AM EDT
Generaly:
Do you shoot it one handed?
Do you shoot it two handed?
Do you shoot it like a rifle, and press the buffer tube into your shoulder?
Do you shoot it like a rifle, but do not press the buffer tube into your shoulder?
Do you shoot it like a rifle, and use a shoulder stap/sling?
If you shoot it all of the above ways, please tell me your preferance.
If you shoot it differently then stated above please explain your method.
Please feel free to post pics demonstrating the staces you use.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:27:00 AM EDT
One handed, ejection port up. Homeboy stance.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:00:47 PM EDT
Repeat after me, five choice polls dont work
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:55:35 PM EDT
Why dont five choice polls work?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:33:27 AM EDT
Two handed, from the hip (green laser).
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:28:57 PM EDT
Use an Ace pad on the buffer tube. Plant the tube on your cheek. It shoots just like a rifle. You dont even need to put the buffer tube on your shoulder. The 223 recoil is so light you will have no problem shooting this way.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:50:49 PM EDT
I have ordered an Oly K23 pistol, and am curious, where does one find an ACE pad that you talk about?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:47:43 AM EDT
One handed.................."Wink Wink"
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:15:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SixKiller:
I have ordered an Oly K23 pistol, and am curious, where does one find an ACE pad that you talk about?





http://www.riflestocks.com/


They now make several colors
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 2:55:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:43:47 AM EDT by want2race]
Take your shooting hand, hold it out like your holding a cup of coffee. Now pull it all the way back untill your forearm presses your bicep, but with your forearm vertical. Now squeeze it tight and push back on your shooting hand with your non shooting hand. It should be solid. If not, hit the gym, you have no bicep.

Your buffer tube is NOT on your shoulder, your fully flexioned (opposite of extended) shooting arm is now the brace for recoil (although mild, any bit helps for faster follow ups). Since it's legal to shoot any pistol two handed, grab the heat shield (aka handguard on a rifle) or mag well, pull back on it compressing your firing arm and you have a pretty solid shooting base.

Also, you will not have to lean your head forward or down to align the sights. Done properly (my way of properly) your head should be up just as if you were bee-boppin down the street. If you push your head forward the rear sight will be by your ear.

To recap: Forearm vertical. Forearm squeezed against bicep. Cheek on buffer tube. Non firing hand on heat shield, mag well or even overlapping your firing hand. Head upright to keep it behind rear sight (duh). It's a VERY compact stance. It's like holding a regular pistol to your cheeck with a two handed grip only the AR pistol doesn't have a slide to punch you in the face.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 2:12:57 PM EDT
Is it legal to shoot an AR pistol with the buffer tube against your shoulder?
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 6:49:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AF1ACURA:
Is it legal to shoot an AR pistol with the buffer tube against your shoulder?



The National Firearms Act 26 USC 5801, et seq.

§ 5845. Definitions
(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length
...
(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder ...

§ 5861. Prohibited acts
It shall be unlawful for any person—
[to make or posses a Firearm in violation of the registration requirements of the NFA]

§ 5871. Penalties
Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provisions of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
------


I am unaware of any court cases or arrests for firing an AR pistol as an SBR (ie using the buffer tube as a stock), but it seems that shooting an AR pistol with the buffer tube against your shoulder makes it no longer a pistol but an NFA short barreled rifle. So, no, it probably isn't legal.

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:35:37 AM EDT
Wow thats just insane, I was at a gun show this weekend and I shouldered a AR Pistol! I guess I turned a ar pistol into a SBR for 10 seconds!
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 11:39:09 AM EDT
Two-handed (un-shouldered) using the red-dot; from the hip (either 1 or 2 hands) using the laser.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 2:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 2:01:08 PM EDT by MoronWGun]
I use a single point sling with reverse tension (push out). As a right hander, I turn my body until my left shoulder is pointing at my target. The strap/sling doesn't get in the way of my vest like a butt-stock would when I shoot "to-the-left" like this. Much more flexible.

In this mode, you can raise it to eye level to "sight" in on the target, or drop lower towards your waist and correct your aim as you see the rounds hitting.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:28:16 PM EDT
Two handed! With a laser! dosen't get much better than that for burning through ammo!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:29:45 PM EDT
Two handed! With a laser! dosen't get much better than that for burning through ammo!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:34:29 PM EDT
Two handed! With a laser! dosen't get much better than that for burning through ammo!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:13:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 7:14:17 PM EDT by HardShell]


Originally Posted By SMOKINSTEEL:
Two handed! With a laser! dosen't get much better than that for burning through ammo!



Originally Posted By SMOKINSTEEL:
Two handed! With a laser! dosen't get much better than that for burning through ammo!



Originally Posted By SMOKINSTEEL:
Two handed! With a laser! dosen't get much better than that for burning through ammo!



Three-round burst...
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:28:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By otto_esq:

Originally Posted By AF1ACURA:
Is it legal to shoot an AR pistol with the buffer tube against your shoulder?




I am unaware of any court cases or arrests for firing an AR pistol as an SBR (ie using the buffer tube as a stock), but it seems that shooting an AR pistol with the buffer tube against your shoulder makes it no longer a pistol but an NFA short barreled rifle. So, no, it probably isn't legal.

Cheers, Otto




An AR-15 "pistol", using a pistol or any other buffer tube has been established (by the BATF)[as a legal/handgun (assuming other requirements have been met - mainly that the lower had never been assembled as a rifle). To the best of my knowledge, there are no laws (federal, state, county, city, etc) that define legal or illegal ways to fire any weapon. If some idiot would like to fire a 7mm-08 TC Contender with the stock held against his nose/ balls/whatever, it would be perfectly legal (his medical insurance company would probably decline to pay the damages). Re firing from the shoulder, the law refers to firearms "intended to be fired from the shoulder". Hmmmm.... did you build this firearm with the intent of firing from the shoulder, or did you just happen to try it that way (after painfully bloodying your nose and busting your balls)??? Food for thought.

Link Posted: 4/7/2006 6:36:00 AM EDT
two handed, one hand on the hand guards or mag-well, cheek-welding the buffer tube, using a sling
for positive retention for recoil.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 9:11:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2006 9:13:42 AM EDT by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By yankee2:
Re firing from the shoulder, the law refers to firearms "intended to be fired from the shoulder". Hmmmm.... did you build this firearm with the intent of firing from the shoulder, or did you just happen to try it that way (after painfully bloodying your nose and busting your balls)??? Food for thought.




Unfortunately, "just happening to try it that way" doesn't hold up in court very well.

Imagine that you work in your gun store, and you have an UZI carbine on the rack. You also happen to have an UZI pistol in the case, together with a spare barrel.
Two guys come in and look at the carbine. One guy asks you if the spare barrel in the case will fit the carbine to which you reply, "sure" and proceed to demonstrate the wonders of the UZI quick-change barrel design by swapping out the 16" barrel for the 7" and back again. They thank you for your time, and you put the barrel back in the case and the carbine on the rack. The next day the guys come back for the carbine -- not to buy it but as evidence when they arrest you for violation of 26 USC 5801, et seq. It seems that you are charged with possession of an unregistered SBR in your shop.

Sound far-fetched? Think you'll beat the rap?
Answer: "no" on both counts.



The issue comes down to how to prove "intent."

There are a myriad of law school textbook ways to prove intent. The easiest, and the one that would apply to a charge of possessing an unregistered SBR in that the firearm was "intended to be fired from the shoulder" is that there was evidence that the weapon was in fact "fired from the shoulder."

Look at the court's opinion in US v. Kent, where they discuss US v. Owens (the actual UZI scenario, above). Kent was charged (and convicted) with possession of an unregistered SBR because they found a short-barreled upper in the same small apartment as his AR rifle. In discussing whether this was "constructive" possession (which many people equate to "intent to posses") even though there was never any evidence that Kent assembled the SB upper onto his AR lower, the court distinguished the Owens case because Owens did actually assemble a short barrel into an UZI carbine in front of witnesses (undercover ATF agents, actually). The court concluded that, compared to Kent, Owens was an "open and shut" case - no need to prove "constructive" possession when you have "actual" possession.

The parallels to the AR pistol would be that the pistol remains a pistol. But, pick that sucker up, place the carbine-length buffer tube against your shoulder and fire it (in front of witnesses) and there is no difficulty in proving possession of an unregistered SBR firearm intended to be fired from the shoulder. As in Owens, no need to prove "intent" to fire from the shoulder when you have "actual" firing from the shoulder.

Point of clarification: I am operating under the premise that placing the buffer tube against the shoulder would allow a rifle-like stance and realistic method of firing -- not merely placing the rear of the pistol against the shoulder for academic reasons, sake of argument, "Look, I can also hold it upside-down!"-type shooting. Thus, I am really addressing AR carbine-length recoil tubes on AR pistols, and not some idiot with the 7mm-08 TC Contender.

-----------------------

As for laws regarding how a weapon is fired:

A pistol is defined in 18 USC 921 and in 27 CFR 479.11 as a "weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand..." (Emphasis added)
Note that it differs from the NFA rifle definition in that a rifle can be "made or remade, designed or redesigned" to be fired from the shoulder.

What's to stop a prosecutor from arguing that an AR pistol was "redesigned" from its original design of being fired in one hand when it was placed against the shoulder for firing like a rifle?
Answer: nothing.
Will it result in a conviction?
Answer: I have no idea.
Will the defense costs be more than the $200 tax stamp for an SBR, since that is clearly what the AR pistol owner wanted anyway, when he starts shooting his AR pistol like an SBR by firing it from the shoulder?
Answer: Without a doubt, many time more.


The National Firearms Act defines items by their form as well as their function.

Form: "having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length"

Function: "designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger"

I would argue that the proposition that a "buffer tube" is not, and by implication, can never be a "stock" is focusing too much on the form and the description of the items in a schematic or parts list, instead of examining the function the buffer tube is fulfilling when it is placed against the shoulder for firing.

The NFA definition for a "rifle" does not say "a weapon that has a stock", but instead defines a rifle by function, "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder". . .

If you take the position that the buffer tube is not functioning as a stock when it is placed against the shoulder for firing, what is it doing? How does its FUNCTION differ from the "stock" that could be placed on the same buffer tube? Only the diameter of the "tube" distinguishes it from a "stock, and the only difference would be shooter comfort. Again the NFA does not reference "a weapon that is intended to be fired comfortably from the shoulder".

Food for though, indeed.

Cheers, Otto

Edited becasue I can't spel
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 9:00:47 AM EDT
Thanks, Otto, for your detailed and well-written posting. Your point is well taken. So well, that I'll bet that every AR15 pistol owner who has read it (and all should) is doing some serious thinking, since probably everyone of them has at one time or another fired the weapon from his or her shoulder. Hmmmmmm...... As the little German guy on Laugh-in used to say," Vedddy intedesting!''

On the other hand, the ATF has approved the use of a CAR buffer tube on an AR15 pistol, knowing full well that (1) a CAR stock can easily be slipped over the tube in seconds and (2) even without the stock, the tube can be braced against the shoulder, since it is the same length as the collapsed stock. The ATF cannot be so naive as to believe that AR15 shooters never fire their weapons this way. Is this a nefarious trap?? Are agents secretly conducting surveilance of gun ranges hoping to photograph and bust unsuspecting lawbreaking scumbags?? I doubt it. In fact, if one was shooting at the range with the buffer tube against the shoulder, and there was an ATF agent practicing in the next lane, I suspect that he would be more inclined to give you a verbal caveat, rather than bust you. Am I going to test this theory? HELL, NO!!!

If one wishes to carry ATF paranoia to extremes, it would be advisable to not own (or have together at a range) both an AR15 pistol and a CAR carbine. An "out-to-get-you" agent could easily argue "constructive possession", since you could easily swap the tele stock to the pistol. And if you happen to have a second stock for the CAR - forget it! Busted!

Don't forget - in the Kent case, the SBR charge was a tack-on - they were after him for much more serious charges. I don't know all the details in the Owens case, but I suspect that this dealer was a "person of interest" for the ATF, and that they were looking for any excuse to bust him -tax evasion, jaywalking, SBR possession, whatever.

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:50:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 6:54:53 AM EDT by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By yankee2:
I don't know all the details in the Owens case,



Sorry, I should have linked it as well:
US v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11 Cir, 1997)

Occassionally, Quarterbore's forum numbers change and the links die, but you can always find the Kent, Owens, U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co, and an excellent SBR FAQ at "Quarterbore's Forums > National Firearms Act Weapons > Short Barreled Rifles" found here Quarterbore's Forums

Cheers, Otto


ETA: BTW, for those who might yet be unfamiliar with them, the Quarterbore site and the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site are excellent sources of info -- each easily requires a few hours to just explore, but are well worth it.
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