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Posted: 2/28/2006 4:20:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 4:29:30 PM EDT by williedikker72]
I was at a gunshow last weekend and actually handled a AR pistol for the firstime. I am currently in the process of gathering a wishlist of items to build a SBR, but after holding the AR pistol I have a few questions. How many of you use the buffer tube like a "stock" while firing your pistol? The one I handled had a foam pad around the end of the tube and it also covered the rear portion of the tube "right where you would get your cheek weld" When I "shouldered" it like shooting a rifle, I really couldn't tell that much of a difference between that and shouldering an M4 with the stock fully collapsed. It would be less stable though due to the lesser surface area on the shoulder though. Just wondering if anyone uses their pistol as a SBR minus the paperwork and tax. This might be something I would be interested in doing... Of course no stock would be applied And I guess when I order my lower, I just need them to write a note saying it's "virgin" and when I do the transfer at the dealer, list it as a pistol and not a rifle receiver, right? Thanks, Terry

Also, is there any issues with going back and forth from .223 to 9mm? I wouldn't think there would be, but just checking.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:49:19 PM EDT
I have never fired my AR PISTOL from my shoulder and never will. If you want to fire a short barrel AR from your shoulder, build an SBR.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:33:27 PM EDT
I have never fired an AR pistol from my "shoulder" before.........you might want try to put a foam sleeve on it and fire it from
your cheek. Just use a "standard" buffer tube on it and put a piece of neoprene foam on it, then when you SBR it
just purchase a stock to put on your "standard" buffer tube so you dont have to repurchase anything else special.

my .02 cents
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:04:01 AM EDT
Not me. Cheekweld only for me.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:03:00 AM EDT
i have, after awhile it hurts like hell.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:36:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 7:37:32 AM EDT by otto_esq]

Originally Posted By williedikker72:
When I "shouldered" it like shooting a rifle, I really couldn't tell that much of a difference between that and shouldering an M4 with the stock fully collapsed. It would be less stable though due to the lesser surface area on the shoulder though. Just wondering if anyone uses their pistol as a SBR minus the paperwork and tax. This might be something I would be interested in doing...

If you do go the pistol route before SBR'ing the lower, please note what the others have posted, above.
They are trying to tell you that using an AR pistol as an unregisterd SBR could lead to major headaches. I am unaware of any cases where charges are brought for such type of shooting of an AR pistol, but it could be because AR pistols in the post-Assault Weapon Ban era made using CAR-length buffer tubes is relatively new. I, for one, do not want to be the "test case defendant" in a criminal action under the NFA.

FYI: There was a debate last August on this issue
(in the Archives under shooting ar pistol with buffer tube on your shoulder (Page 1) for Team Members)
where the following was posted:

The National Firearms Act, alluded to in the [shooting an AR pistol with a CAR buffer tube against the shoulder] "would basically constitute a Short Barreled Rifle" comment, above, defines items by their form as well as their function.

Form: "having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length"

Function: "designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger"

I would argue that the comments, above, that state a "buffer tube" is not, and by implication, can never be a "stock" are focusing too much on the form and the description of the items in a schematic or parts list, instead of examining the function the buffer tube is fulfilling when it is placed against the shoulder for firing.

The NFA definition for a "rifle" does not say "a weapon that has a stock", but instead defines a rifle by function, "a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder". . .

An AR pistol can become a "rifle" under the NFA if it is a "weapon . . . intended to be fired from the shoulder"; the "designed or redesigned, made or remade" aspect of the definition shows the legislative intent to capture in the NFA definition of "rifle" prior non-"rifles" that are in some way converted to rifles based on intent, namely, like in this case, that they are "intended to be fired from the shoulder."

Just because you don't call an aluminum tube sticking out the back of the receiver a "stock" in the classical sense, that does not prevent the legal interpretation that A function of the aluminum tube, i.e. to support the weapon against the shoulder during firing, is a de facto stock.

If you take the position that the buffer tube is not functioning as a stock when it is placed against the shoulder for firing, what is it doing? How does it's FUNCTION differ from the "stock" that could be placed on the same buffer tube? It is not adjustable for length of pull, it is shorter, it does not "widen out" at the rear where it contacts the body, it doesn't look like a traditional stock. So what? If not for the function it performs, how in the world do you define a stock? None of those items are even mentioned in the definition of a "rifle" either; instead, a "rifle is a weapon fired from the shoulder" and is thus defined by function, not whether or not it has a traditional oiled maple, checkered walnut, molded plastic, or wide rubber butt-padded "stock". Only the diameter of the "tube" distinguishes it from a "stock"; none of you would argue that placing a wider, flared piece of metal, plastic or rubber on the end of the tube is not a "stock". However, the only difference would be shooter comfort. Again the NFA does not reference "a weapon that is intended to be fired comfortably from the shoulder".

Remember, those that would be working for the prosecutor are the same group that try to get a weapon to malfunction and thus fire more than one round per trigger manipulation for a charge of unregistered machine guns. How is your argument, "your Honor, although the buffer tube functions as, and therefore takes the place of a stock, it doesn't look like one", going to hold up against them?
Poorly, I'd predict.

and on Page 2:

Point of clarification: I am operating under the premise that placing the buffer tube against the shoulder would allow a rifle-like stance and realistic method of firing -- not merely placing the rear of the pistol against the shoulder for academic reasons, sake of argument, "I can also hold it upside-down!"-type shooting. Thus, I am really addressing AR carbine-length recoil tubes on AR pistols. It is my understanding of the Carbon 15 pistol that the buffer tube is pretty short -- along the lines of the old "Model 1" pistol recoil spring housing (4-5 inches?), and not really long enough to get a rifle-like firing stance, with use of the sights, etc. It'd be like shouldering a Remington XP-100. The same cannot be said for essentially Colt Commando's without the plastic (or the original aluminum for you purists) stock piece, complete with highrise sights and longer lengths of pull.

and finally:

"The point here is not to win in court; the point is to stay out of it in the first place, for one issue cannot be disputed: the $200 tax stamp for an SBR'ed "pistol" would be cheap compared to any legal defense costs, win or lose."

Cheers, Otto
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:21:41 PM EDT
AHHHH... I get the picture now. I should've figured the ATF would have some screwed up rule about the "proper" way to shoot your own firearm. God forbid they would see me using a knife like a fork or a screwdriver like a chisel Thanks for the info and sorry to ruffle the feathers on a few of you. Terry
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