In an effort to focus on different areas of the AR pistol...

AR pistol -  Buffer tube assemblies

Just my 2 cents...

Model 1 sales (old style short) ----> Massive Reliability Issues. 5-10% reliability.

Model 1 sales (new style long) ----> Better, but basically just a buffer tube from a RRA Entry Stock.

RRA Entry Stock Tube -----> Works 100% but you need to rig something to hold the pin in the rear of the lower for the selector.

Ace Pistol Buffer System ----> Works 100% and solves the issues with the Safety on the Lower.

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-Jason

Don't forget the Bushmaster pistol type tube.  Longer than the old Model One but shorter than the Entry.  It uses a modified bolt carrier and from all I have heard on here it is as reliable as longer Entry tube and standard size BC.

Back in 93, I took my pistol lower into a model train type hobby shop.  They used wire drills to decide what size allen head screw I should tap the existing selector detent spring hole for.  Now the spring never gets lost!

1)measure the detent hole size using wire drills
2)find a tap/drill chart which shows which size TAP uses the hole already present.
3)tap the threads
4)install the correct set screw

HTH.

Paladin

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt: Back in 93, I took my pistol lower into a model train type hobby shop.  They used wire drills to decide what size allen head screw I should tap the existing selector detent spring hole for.  Now the spring never gets lost! 1)measure the detent hole size using wire drills 2)find a tap/drill chart which shows which size TAP uses the hole already present. 3)tap the threads 4)install the correct set screw HTH. Paladin

I did this with one of my AR-15 lowers as well...  I don't remember the size but it may have been something like an 8-21 or 6-? ....  Just drill up to the proper zixe a very small depth for a few threads and add a set screw...  It is nice for those that may like to swap stocks...

Just received my Ace buffer tube, today.  Nice kit.  The foam pad allows a good check weld when using a two handed hold.  The QD sling swivel can be assembled on either side, but can get in the way of the forward assist if installed on the right side of the receiver.

A couple more bits and pieces, and I'll be able to try the pistol out.

Fired a few rounds to try the pistol out and make certain the sights are close enough to be on the paper when I can get to the range.

I like the foam pad on the Ace buffer tube.  

I even managed to figure out the do-it-yourself single point sling, and it works just fine with the Ace tube's sling swivel.

Where can you get the "Ace Pistol Buffer System ----> Works 100% and solves the issues with the Safety on the Lower." ?

How about from ACE?.  

If you already have a buffer and buffer spring for a CAR, like I did, you only need the AR Pistol Kit (buffer tube, foam tube, QD swivel, and swivel mount/adapter plate for the rear of the receiver) from Ace, which is $45.  If you need the buffer and spring, it's another $12.  I think the shipping charge was less than $5, and I received it a couple of days after I placed the order (pretty quick for a package going from California to Tennessee).

If I do another pistol, I'll definitely order another buffer tube from Ace.

Well folks, I just made an interesting discovery!

You are all familear w/ this?


Now don't go off and think M1S!

This is what GUNSMOKE ENTERPRISES is selling! Link to their pistol page

I suppose the option is still there then.....

i like the looks of it but i wonder how well it works.

Is a modified carrier needed for any of these buffer tube assy., or will they work with a standard carrier?  More to the point, which type is required for the ACE system.

I'm willing to give it a try. I've tested a 7.5" pistol previously and the noise is unacceptable for what I like. 10.5 and above barrels need a shorter buffer to stay within the "loose concept" of max OAL  and I am looking at my options,  heck, if it doesn't work....no big whoop. I've thrown away more on other failed ideas

Originally Posted By babcock: Is a modified carrier needed for any of these buffer tube assy., or will they work with a standard carrier?  More to the point, which type is required for the ACE system.

The ACE pistol buffer is in all practicality a CAR buffer set up, so it will work w/ ANY upper (9mm or 223) w/out any mods.

The M1S/Gunsmoke buffer can me tweaked by using 1911 long slide recoil springs (assuming Gunsmoke springs are similar to M1S....but I doubt it).  They need to be trimmed to length.  So far my recoil buff w/ that spring is okay...though it is under 500 rounds.....

Going on a tanget here, I think the "ideal" barrel lengt/config  for a 223/5.56 pistol upper would be the DPMS kitty cat handguard set up & gas block.  BUT, the barrel be 8-9" long- bascially, just long enough in front of the gas block to thread the muzzle for the break/hider.  Back onsome websites, I saw this - but it seems to be far and few.....

Wouldn't the use of a CAR tube be asking for trouble, since it "could" have a stock placed on it and be in SBR territory?  Thanks ET

Originally Posted By ET1814: Wouldn't the use of a CAR tube be asking for trouble, since it "could" have a stock placed on it and be in SBR territory?  Thanks ET

If you own a stock that will fit on the receiver extension, you're taking a gamble. Possession of the two could very easily be considered illegal.

Many posts here are being so very extreme on what is and what is not going to get ones self into trouble on these pistols.
Unless you are the PIECE of, or TARGET of ,an investigation where LEO's are going to come to your home with or without a search warrant, the only way you can be challenged for legality of the weapon is if you bring it on yourself. 4th Amendment protects us, even us old cops.
Having a SPARE stock for a particular style weapon and having another weapon, (pistol)that would become illegal by statute if you put it on does not make it illegal to have that spare for whatever reason you say, if ask. (remember; pistol to rifle to pistol, totaly legal)
Laws are written in black and white, LEO's have to enforce black and white. They cannot make up laws to enforce at their whims, If they do, courts are there to protect the individual. (25 years experience talking here)
Me I am building a pistol and have spare parts in the home where the pistol will reside. It is legal in Arizona to have one ....Yippee!

Colt-653 has talked me into buying one of ASA's buffer assemblies for my new pistol build.
Once together I'll get pics up on the picture thread and I'll spill the beans on how well it really functions.
I also have the Model 1's that came with the kit as well as the complete Ace setup if all else fails. Everyone say Ace, Ace, but me, I'll try for the short version until it proves me wrong. More to come once it is done. Colt 653 tells me his stuff will work and last so I am trusting. I think it was Big Bore who wrote about it is not the amount of money spent, we lose more than that. So, here we go without the favorite Ace setup. More Coming.

Originally Posted By NovaLondon: Laws are written in black and white, LEO's have to enforce black and white. They cannot make up laws to enforce at their whims, If they do, courts are there to protect the individual. (25 years experience talking here)

Unfortunately, gun owners not only have the possibility of dealing with LEO's (who are usually reasonable people), but the additional possibility of dealing with the BATF.  There is a difference between the two.  

I've been lucky enough to have avoided dealing face to face with BATF agents, but  my job presents fairly frequent opportunities for dealing with agents of another federal agency.  Many feds are reasonable people, but the hiring procedures for federal agencies creates a situation where entirely unreasonable people can end up in positions they should not be in (lack the experience, training, and disposition necessary for their job).  I have seen more than one of these unreasonable people (both dealing with them myself, and witnessing them dealing with others) not only make up what they are trying to enforce, but actually enforce it (not to the point of going to court, but far enough to enforce compliance with their orders).

Each person has to make up their own mind about how to deal with the issue, but if I think I might be getting into an area where questions might be raised, I want clear documentation (of the legality of what I'm doing) close at hand.

Are these pistols legal in Va and how do you find out where they are legal to have.

Originally Posted By mattj: Are these pistols legal in Va and how do you find out where they are legal to have.

YES THEY ARE   LEGAL IN  VA. AND THERE UNDER THE SAME LAW AS  ANY OTHER PISTOL ..

HAVE FUN ENJOY SHOOTING  YOUR PISTOL

Deleted

Originally Posted By Quarterbore: Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt: Back in 93, I took my pistol lower into a model train type hobby shop.  They used wire drills to decide what size allen head screw I should tap the existing selector detent spring hole for.  Now the spring never gets lost! 1)measure the detent hole size using wire drills 2)find a tap/drill chart which shows which size TAP uses the hole already present. 3)tap the threads 4)install the correct set screw HTH. Paladin

On my Superior lower I tapped it to 4-40 threads, no drilling required. Installed a 4-40 allen set screw.

4-40 is the standard drill size, methinks.  Local hardware store has taps and set screws.  Unless you plan to install a new safety any time soon, use blue lock-tite to keep it in there.  Works like a charm.  Take a coil or two off the spring until you're satisfied with the safety operation.  Good shooting.

Originally Posted By BadgerArms:  Take a coil or two off the spring until you're satisfied with the safety operation.

IIRC the spring in question only holds the rear takedown detent in position against the takedown pin.  Safety operation will NOT be affected.

Paladin

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt: Originally Posted By BadgerArms:  Take a coil or two off the spring until you're satisfied with the safety operation.   IIRC the spring in question only holds the rear takedown detent in position against the takedown pin.  Safety operation will NOT be affected. Paladin

Correct.  The safty spring/detent is held in by the pistol grip.

You're right.  I was confused.  Please forgive me.  It should have read: "Check for proper tension on the rear takedown pin.  

has anyone tried  the gunsmoke buffer setup?

Originally Posted By Parabellium: has anyone tried  the gunsmoke buffer setup?

I've got the same style on a pistol, however it's the same set-up that I got from Pam at M & A parts.  The bolt tends to bounce and not want to stay in battery after firing, causing a FTF (?).   Pushing the assist every round gets old.  I'm going to try one of the 23lb pistol springs next time out.  I still have a few of those around here somewhere.

HTH
Dave

Try the Bushmaster buffer mod.  You MIGHT be able to use your tube and just have to chop your bolt carrier off shorter to get the rifle to function fine.  Forward assist will still be operable, though.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=253140

Originally Posted By TOMMY15: Unmodified Suomi 72 round drum 9mm, Oly pattern, uses pistol buffer tube, standard buffer cut to 1" and standard buffer spring cut to 6".  Weight removed from bolt.  Flawless on semi or full auto.

Found this posting on another thread..... something to think about if the old M1S/Gunsmoke sytem is not your tast.  Modify a buffer and spring.....

Will the ACE pistol buffer kit work with an ambi sling plate or do I have to use their plate, (their plate looks thicked and it's not ambi.

Originally Posted By protozo1: Will the ACE pistol buffer kit work with an ambi sling plate or do I have to use their plate, (their plate looks thicked and it's not ambi.

No it won't, but if I'm not mistaken, you can move the sling loop to the other side.  If you want a tube that's almost exactly the same that can take a CAR ambi sling loop get the new style Model 1 Sales or the one that RB Precision is selling.

Still needing knowledge...I purchased a pistiol buffer assembly like the one from Gun Smoke Enterprises that Kaliburz has pictured on page one. The only difference is the end cap does not have a sling attachment, it looks like the one a couple of replies about, again posted by Kaliburz. My question is, can i use this buffer assembly with a 9mm pistol setup. If so can i run it as is or what will i need to change. I will be shooting semi-auto. Any replies will be greatly appreciated

David

[email protected]

I am interested in building a ar pistol and I would ideally (like everone else on here) get 100% reliablility. I like the looks of the M1S tube, has anyone yet tried this one or the other companys to see if it works well, after any mods also...  

Thanks,

Andy

I picked up a Gunsmoke Enterprises short buffer tube used at a gun show.  I need to get a spring for it because the one with does not push the bolt forward very good.  What is the best spring to use for this setup?  Searching I have read different ideas, is the 23 pound Wolfe a good choice or is there better?

Thanks.

Someone questioned buffer tube length, in regards to, "loose over all length" for an AR pistol. What is the "loose overall length"? Same question in regards to upper? There is a practical bbl length, I think anything over 10.5" is not practical, what is the max. legal bbl length?  Also, as any of you know, that have used a mod1, or ace type buffer tube, you are able to shoulder the pistol. May sound dumb, but are there any restrictions on shoulder firing an AR pistol?   Thanks in advance for legitimate answers.

NovaLondon, I was wondering how the ASA buffer was working? Let us know.

I got the Gunsmoke buffer kit a few weeks ago.  I called in my order and the kit was shipped to me with two missing parts.  After going back and forth thru the mail I received my parts and assembled the kit as per supplied instructions.  After and function and safety check I tested her out.  She didn't cycle one time after the first 3 or 4 shots.  Had to use the forward assist on every shot after that.  I called Gunsmoke and told them about my problem.  The gentleman from GSE told me that I may need to relubricate the bolt carrier and inside receiver.  I disassembled the whole gun, cleaned and relubed and took her out for a second try.  She went 4 rounds and then back to fail to fire.  It seemed like the buffer spring wasnt heavy enough and wouldnt lock the bolt forward.  On the advise of one of the other members from this thread, I purchased the wolf 23lb 1911 springs.  I tried the kit with this modification and still no success.  I then e-mailed GSE about my problem.  What they said might be of some use to some of you out there with a similar problem.  Here is what they told me.....
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"Hi Robert, there are a number of problems that people are having such as your self mainly due to the fact that they want to build a pistol themselves and do not have the experience to solve these small problems. We offer the entire weapon test fired and ready to go with a one year warranty, and also offer a entire pistol parts kit less the lower receiver. If more guy's would purchase our kits they would have less problems than with the after market copy's.
The first problem is bolt lock up, if the gas tube is not bent properly or not centered straight in the receiver the gas key will bind on it preventing the bolt from closing. With the uppers separated push the bolt carrier forward with one finger and it should slide smoothly over the gas tube, lube the carrier and gas tube. Our gas tubes have the correct bend but the after market tubes do not.

Second problem, bolt break in, you will notice when the bolt and carrier are new the bolt is very stiff when you slide it back and forth in the carrier. At times this may cause the bolt to stop before it locks up. Lube the carrier well and all moving parts, place some Breakfree oil around the bolt rings and bolt inside the carrier, you may want to try using a slick lube for break in for the first 200 rds. or so like STP. This will get the carrier moving faster and will help break in the bolt rings. Once the rings are seated then you can clean out the STP. and replace it with breakfree. Only use the STP on the outside of the carrier and the receiver bolt well and also the buffer tube and spring guide. When you purchase different parts from here and there you may run into some problems, so your much better off buying the parts from the people who have the most experience with this weapon.

Third problem, headspacing. We headspace our pistol barrels a bit differently to speed up lock and unlock timing.

Forth problem, Gas porting, our pistol barrels are ported correctly to obtain the proper gas flow for correct cycling. Most after market barrels are not and you may normally have short cycling problems.

That's about the most info I can give you from past experience and I hope it will help you with your problems. Many guy's blame the short recoil kit for these problems but that is not it."
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So far I have not corrected my problem but I will post updates when something changes.

Originally Posted By aok1555:
Second problem, bolt break in, you will notice when the bolt and carrier are new the bolt is very stiff when you slide it back and forth in the carrier. At times this may cause the bolt to stop before it locks up. Lube the carrier well and all moving parts, place some Breakfree oil around the bolt rings and bolt inside the carrier, you may want to try using a slick lube for break in for the first 200 rds. or so like STP. This will get the carrier moving faster and will help break in the bolt rings. Once the rings are seated then you can clean out the STP. and replace it with breakfree. Only use the STP on the outside of the carrier and the receiver bolt well and also the buffer tube and spring guide. When you purchase different parts from here and there you may run into some problems, so your much better off buying the parts from the people who have the most experience with this weapon.
I'd say you shouldn't have to look much further than this.  But, I'd suggest a different approach to break in the bolt carrier group.  First, shoot it about 20-30 times completely dry.  You should be able to note where the wear surfaces are.  Clean it really good and then shoot it dry again for 20-30 rounds and note how much more your wearing surfaces have broken in.  You want to stop and clean about every magazine for the first 120 rounds or so and then clean it REALLY good and lube it up sith some good synthetic lube.

I can't guarantee that your problems will EVER be solved.  You need a BUFFER for that instead of just a spring.

Regarding "short cycling" issues, be advised that my older Bushmaster 10.25 pistol barrel only has about a 0.070 gas port, when advice these days is to use around 0.093 with an H2 buffer.

As far as GSE, way back when they first started selling the pistol buffer kit, mainly derived from Duncan Long's style, they were unreliable.  I actually paid for one, and  after many months of "non-delivery because they were having material quality problems" I got my $ back.

A pistol based on Systema Arf needs a bolt buffer to stop bounce, and allow enough controlled rebound energy to return to battery completely while stripping the top round from a full magazine.  Slamming the bolt closed with a 1911 spring sounds charmingly simplistic, BUT IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR THE OEM SYSTEM.  Not even close.

Paladin

I have a 10.5 in. barrel (I also have a couple of virgin lowers receivers). If I build a pistol, using a standard CAR buffer tube/spring/buffer assembly (no stock!), should I have any functioning problems? (The gas port is 2.5" behind the muzzle end)  Thanks for any input.

Check your gas port diameter before assembly if at all possible.

My older Bushmaster 10 incher had about a 0.070 gas port, as measured with the wire drill set used to enlarge it to a more reasonable 0.089 inch.  I was advised that 0.093 in. with an H2 buffer was "ideal", but stopped one step short so I can test with a standard carbine buffer.

Feeding rounds fine from the magazine while failing to lock back when empty was my only functional issue, solved a decade ago by cutting a turn or two from the operating spring.  Hence the redrilled gas port on my current build (still awaiting handguard decision).

Paladin

Thanks, Palladin, appreciate the reply. I'll check the current gas port size and try enlarging in steps.

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originally posted by towcat:     I'm willing to give it a try. I've tested a 7.5" pistol previously and the noise is unacceptable for what I like. 10.5 and above barrels need a shorter buffer to stay within the "loose concept" of max OAL and I am looking at my options, heck, if it doesn't work....no big whoop. I've thrown away more on other failed ideas
_______________________________________________________________________________________

What is this max overall length?

           Anyone???????

Originally Posted By Kaliburz: Well folks, I just made an interesting discovery! You are all familear w/ this? www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/Picture%20014.jpg Now don't go off and think M1S! This is what GUNSMOKE ENTERPRISES is selling! Link to their pistol page I suppose the option is still there then.....

From GSE's page.

This is the original Pistol Recoil that we developed from the late 80s. The tube is 4 inches long and has the correct  recoil spring specifically designed for this system alone. (Add $8.00 for Uncle Mike's sling swivel)

I wonder what they mean by "this system"?

The recoil part or their guns?