.224 Valkyrie Twist Change? - Page 4

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - .224 Valkyrie Twist Change? (Page 4 of 6)

Posted: 5/15/2018 9:27:03 AM EDT

[#1]

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1-in-7" ain't a "slow twist".

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snip

Just my opinion, but you don't see long range guys going with slow twists barrels in any caliber these days for good reason....

1-in-7" ain't a "slow twist".

Very true. A more accurate statement would have been something akin to "you generally see long range shooters going with 'fast for caliber' twist rates, ie: 1:10 for .308, 1:7 for 6.5C or 6.5x47L, etc"

Slow and fast are relative terms and actual numbers are best for this conversation.

Based on the points raised here and in other threads, unless there is a negative impact on the bullet, a slight loss in velocity from the faster twist barrels would seem to be a fair cost for better long range ballistics.

ETA: with this cartridge being so young, there probably hasn't been enough time in the hands of shooters and handloaders for 'fast' and 'slow' twist rates and their pors and cons being identified, so folks like myself are simply trying to do an apples to oranges comparison with like cartridges and make the first barrel one which will be able to handle bullets we suspect will be coming. This is not all that dissimilar from short 300BO barrels with 1:7 twist rates which were not necessary to stabilize subsonic 240gr SMKs, but done with the notion that even heavier/longer bullets would be coming as heavy .30 cal bullets would be wanted for subs.

Posted: 5/15/2018 10:30:10 AM EDT

[#2]

18" Stag I tested was 1.5-1.75 MOA

Posted: 5/15/2018 10:48:44 AM EDT

[#3]

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18" Stag I tested was 1.5-1.75 MOA

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Twist rate and ammo used?

Though, this is just anecdotal as a larger sample size will be needed to deduce any twist rate:bullet used correlations.

Posted: 5/15/2018 11:01:17 AM EDT

[#4]

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Twist rate and ammo used?

Though, this is just anecdotal as a larger sample size will be needed to deduce any twist rate:bullet used correlations.

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Quoted:
18" Stag I tested was 1.5-1.75 MOA

Twist rate and ammo used?

Though, this is just anecdotal as a larger sample size will be needed to deduce any twist rate:bullet used correlations.

1:7 factory rifle.

90gr match

The CMMG with the 24" shot slightly better.

Posted: 5/15/2018 5:40:47 PM EDT

[#5]

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Twist rate and ammo used?

Though, this is just anecdotal as a larger sample size will be needed to deduce any twist rate:bullet used correlations.

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^^^
I agree with this wisdom.

.

Posted: 5/15/2018 7:02:39 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
^^^
I agree with this wisdom.

.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Twist rate and ammo used?

Though, this is just anecdotal as a larger sample size will be needed to deduce any twist rate:bullet used correlations.

^^^
I agree with this wisdom.

.

While I think I already know the answer, based on the fact that you're making 1:7s, but would you agree or disagree with the wisdom of having a 1:6 twist barrel? Especially if the only intended use is 77gr+ match bullets for long range use?

I'm likely 6-12mos away from getting into the 224V game, as I want to see more first hand, independent handloader data before jumping in, but I'm struggling to understand why there is pushback on going tighter than 1:7 twist rate.

While 1:12 is 'perfect' for 55gr .223 loads, 1:7 barrels seem to do just fine with the light pills so long as you aren't pushing them too fast for the given twist rate.

Basically, what is optimum for 77gr and heavier match bullets based on your group testing everything 1,000rds with this round? Not looking for the best all around twist rate, but what would you build for banging steel for 1k and beyond? We're faster than 1:7 twists experimented with and found to have negative effects?

Posted: 5/15/2018 11:21:26 PM EDT

[#7]

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I knew what he was talking about I left ballistic out . The Nosler ballistic tip bullets have a very soft jacket compared to say Hornady. Rifling type probably has a lot to do with bullets coming apart also.

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He’s talking about your comment about thin jackets not the hardness of the tip

I knew what he was talking about I left ballistic out . The Nosler ballistic tip bullets have a very soft jacket compared to say Hornady. Rifling type probably has a lot to do with bullets coming apart also.

You don't know what a Hornady SX is, do you.

Posted: 5/19/2018 4:34:29 PM EDT

[#8]

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^^^
I agree with this wisdom.

.

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Have you shot that short 224 with the 90g SMK at ranges close to, at, or past 1k yards in 5 degree temps give or take with a 1:7 twist? I'd be interested in a short 224 like 12.5 or a 14.5in.

Posted: 5/19/2018 6:40:13 PM EDT

[#9]

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You don't know what a Hornady SX is, do you.

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Quoted:

He’s talking about your comment about thin jackets not the hardness of the tip

I knew what he was talking about I left ballistic out . The Nosler ballistic tip bullets have a very soft jacket compared to say Hornady. Rifling type probably has a lot to do with bullets coming apart also.

You don't know what a Hornady SX is, do you.

As a matter of fact I do should I try some in the 7 twist ?

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Posted: 5/19/2018 6:43:15 PM EDT

[#10]

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As a matter of fact I do should I try some in the 7 twist ?

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Quoted:

Quoted:

He’s talking about your comment about thin jackets not the hardness of the tip

I knew what he was talking about I left ballistic out . The Nosler ballistic tip bullets have a very soft jacket compared to say Hornady. Rifling type probably has a lot to do with bullets coming apart also.

You don't know what a Hornady SX is, do you.

As a matter of fact I do should I try some in the 7 twist ?

Sure. They never survived my 8s, 7.7s, or 7s.

Posted: 5/21/2018 4:13:46 PM EDT

[#11]

Are there any 18" 6.5 twist barrels currently available?

Posted: 5/21/2018 4:39:44 PM EDT

[#12]

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Have you shot that short 224 with the 90g SMK at ranges close to, at, or past 1k yards in 5 degree temps give or take with a 1:7 twist? I'd be interested in a short 224 like 12.5 or a 14.5in.

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Got down to 11 degrees here in central Texas for a second or two last winter, but I was on coffee break.

Posted: 5/21/2018 8:28:35 PM EDT

[#13]

I finally put together my build using a Larue 20" 7 twist barrel and bolt combo. It's in a Rainier Arms Billet upper/lower with Toolcraft nitride bolt carrier and SLR handguard. I have only shot the 90gr. SMK's at 200 yards so far as that is the longest range Austin Rifle Club offers. I will take it out to our ranch or Best of the West soon to stretch its legs. The temp was warm at 85 degrees at an altitude of 750 ft., but I was getting really decent groups while breaking the barrel in without really trying. The couple I measured were sub MOA. I am happy with the 1/7 twist so far..

Posted: 5/22/2018 7:45:38 AM EDT

[#14]

^^^

Austin Gun Club has 5 lanes of a 1,000 yards, one goes to 1 mile.
AGC is essentially straight north of Best of the West.
I keep about 40 automatic LaRue targets out there scattered on those 5 long lanes.

Posted: 5/22/2018 9:59:23 AM EDT

[#15]

Off topic

@LaRue_Tactical

Any chance you could give your perspective on this? You make an accurate and affordable AR15 barrel, could the same be possible for the bolt action pre-fit world?

Budget Savage pattern barrels

Posted: 5/22/2018 10:14:45 AM EDT

[#16]

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^^^

Austin Gun Club has 5 lanes of a 1,000 yards, one goes to 1 mile.
AGC is essentially straight north of Best of the West.
I keep about 40 automatic LaRue targets out there scattered on those 5 long lanes.

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Hey Mark, Thanks for the info.

Posted: 6/7/2018 2:45:52 AM EDT

[#17]

I just got an email from Bison Armory that they have their 20" SPR 1:6.5 SS barrel in stock.

20" 1:6.5 $215 shipped

Posted: 6/7/2018 4:19:07 PM EDT

[#18]

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I just got an email from Bison Armory that they have their 20" SPR 1:6.5 SS barrel in stock.

20" 1:6.5 $215 shipped

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Anyone shot their barrels?

Posted: 6/7/2018 6:19:01 PM EDT

[#19]

running their 20" 1-7 valk and a 16" 1/7 .223 on my mk12 they are fine

Posted: 6/7/2018 6:33:04 PM EDT

[#20]

A buddy of mine just got 2 Krieger 1:6.5 blanks to shoot 95gr SMKs.

He does all his own work. He's an ME who put himself through 2 different gun-smithing schools while doing his ME degree.

Does a lot of exotic alloy prototype work for medical device companies.

Posted: 6/17/2018 1:55:54 PM EDT

[#21]

I received my Bison Armory 20" 1:6.5 twist SPR barrel. It looks great, all to spec, M4 extension, 5/8-24 muzzle threads and well finished.

I took it out today to zero and just shoot it. The only ammo I have is the American Eagle 75gr FMJ. The box has 3000fps. I averaged 2789fps, ex-spread 92 and std-dev of 24. After playing around and zeroing it in, the last two groups were .75 MOA and .55 MOA at 100 yards. All groups were MOA or better. This is data from 20 shots or so. I will need to shoot more to see how consistent it is. So far, so good.

I used a Harris s-brm bipod, sand bags and the glass was a Sightron S-3 6-24x50 FFP mil.

Posted: 6/17/2018 5:25:55 PM EDT

[#22]

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I received my Bison Armory 20" 1:6.5 twist SPR barrel. It looks great, all to spec, M4 extension, 5/8-24 muzzle threads and well finished.

I took it out today to zero and just shoot it. The only ammo I have is the American Eagle 75gr FMJ. The box has 3000fps. I averaged 2789fps, ex-spread 92 and std-dev of 24. After playing around and zeroing it in, the last two groups were .75 MOA and .55 MOA at 100 yards. All groups were MOA or better. This is data from 20 shots or so. I will need to shoot more to see how consistent it is. So far, so good.

I used a Harris s-brm bipod, sand bags and the glass was a Sightron S-3 6-24x50 FFP mil.

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Bison is my go to. if they make a barrel i can use, i buy theirs. my mk12 will use them as i throat them out from shooting the piss out of my tubes lol. why buy $450 sub moa tubes when bisons are $200?!

Posted: 6/19/2018 8:37:06 AM EDT

[#23]

New 224V info from Sierra for the 90gr SMK. Red text in upper right of the chart at the bottom most post in the SH thread.

Basically, 6.5 twist below 2600fps. 7 twist if over 2600fps.

https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/224-valkyrie.6874330/page-3

Posted: 6/19/2018 3:34:46 PM EDT

[#24]

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Quoted:
New 224V info from Sierra for the 90gr SMK. Red text in upper right of the chart at the bottom most post in the SH thread.

Basically, 6.5 twist below 2600fps. 7 twist if over 2600fps.

https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/224-valkyrie.6874330/page-3

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When i look at the sierra website it still says 1:6.5 or faster dor the 90gr.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9290/224-dia-90-gr-HPBT

Posted: 6/19/2018 9:48:37 PM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:
When i look at the sierra website it still says 1:6.5 or faster dor the 90gr.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9290/224-dia-90-gr-HPBT

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Quoted:

Quoted:
New 224V info from Sierra for the 90gr SMK. Red text in upper right of the chart at the bottom most post in the SH thread.

Basically, 6.5 twist below 2600fps. 7 twist if over 2600fps.

https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/224-valkyrie.6874330/page-3

When i look at the sierra website it still says 1:6.5 or faster dor the 90gr.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9290/224-dia-90-gr-HPBT

Websites aren’t always current

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Posted: 6/19/2018 10:21:19 PM EDT

[#26]

I ordered a couple Valkyrie barrels from Green Mountain today supposed to be in first of July.

Posted: 6/20/2018 9:18:44 AM EDT

[#27]

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Agreed. If the V gains traction, I think we will start to see some 95Gr.+ hunting and match bullets (besides the 95 SMK). I am going to give it a little time as I believe we will see 6 and 6.5 twists later this year. I have a dedicated Billet upper/lower just sitting in the safe waiting.

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Agree. This cartridge, if it catches, will evolve. Frankly, I expect the PRS guys will eat this up (now that everyone has spent $Billions on 6.5 Creed). They will drive development of bullets, dies, and so on. Skimmed the reloading video, the bullet seater issues seem typical for new cartridges. Again, if the cartridge catches on, we will wind up with 100gr torpedoes, match grade dies, and so on.

I'm an experienced F Class LR shooter, and so my head is full of the many variables at play here: bullet design (weight, ogive), chamber design (neck, throat), brass quality, loading length (single loading or mag length), plus all the additional variables brought along by gas system (port pressure, gas tube length, powder choice, buffer weight, port diameter). There will be folks who will be satisfied with factory ammo, and there will be those who want to push the limits.

I predict the LR community will ignore lighter bullets, and we will wind up with 6 twist barrels and 100 grain bullets, some ideal combination of gas system length and buffer weight, and a chamber which will work with a) a bullet which can be loaded mag length to give decent performance out to 1K, and b) a different bullet seated long for single loading for higher accuracy, and for which neck tension needs to be controlled. If it catches on, in a few years Lapua will start making decent brass for it.

I am watching this cartridge but will wait it out a bit for most of these details to be worked out. Plus, I'm not feeling the "$600 barrel" thing.

Posted: 6/20/2018 9:25:31 AM EDT

[#28]

Wake me when someone shows up with a more accurate barrel than my 224V 1-in-7" twists.

.

Posted: 6/20/2018 10:25:01 AM EDT

[#29]

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Wake me when someone shows up with a more accurate barrel than my 224V 1-in-7" twists.

.

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Don't worry, bear creek arsenal will start spinning up their $50 hbar fluted 5r "match" barrels and everyone will be claiming they get .000001 moa with them ALL DAY LONG.

Also lowlight over at SH is saying the 224v kinda sucks past 800 with his jp. Too much wind drift.

I'm still waiting for more bullet choices and date to come out before getting into 224v.

Posted: 6/20/2018 7:39:42 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:

Agree. This cartridge, if it catches, will evolve. Frankly, I expect the PRS guys will eat this up (now that everyone has spent $Billions on 6.5 Creed). They will drive development of bullets, dies, and so on. Skimmed the reloading video, the bullet seater issues seem typical for new cartridges. Again, if the cartridge catches on, we will wind up with 100gr torpedoes, match grade dies, and so on.

I'm an experienced F Class LR shooter, and so my head is full of the many variables at play here: bullet design (weight, ogive), chamber design (neck, throat), brass quality, loading length (single loading or mag length), plus all the additional variables brought along by gas system (port pressure, gas tube length, powder choice, buffer weight, port diameter). There will be folks who will be satisfied with factory ammo, and there will be those who want to push the limits.

I predict the LR community will ignore lighter bullets, and we will wind up with 6 twist barrels and 100 grain bullets, some ideal combination of gas system length and buffer weight, and a chamber which will work with a) a bullet which can be loaded mag length to give decent performance out to 1K, and b) a different bullet seated long for single loading for higher accuracy, and for which neck tension needs to be controlled. If it catches on, in a few years Lapua will start making decent brass for it.

I am watching this cartridge but will wait it out a bit for most of these details to be worked out. Plus, I'm not feeling the "$600 barrel" thing.

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I'm not sure how the Valkyrie will do in PRS matches simply due to how hard it is to see hits on steel, or hear hits at 800 yards and beyond. Some hits might be scored as misses if the spotter doesn't see or hear impact. It's a reservation I have. Also I am not sure if the Valkyrie has enough case capacity to push 100 grain bullets. I suspect 95s might be a bit of a struggle. Might have to go to a 24 inch barrel...

Posted: 6/21/2018 3:16:07 PM EDT

[#31]

I have had my build with a 20" Larue 1/7 twist out to 800 now and am very pleased. Very good groups and as easy to hit at 800 with the 224V as it is with my 6.5CM.

Posted: 6/21/2018 4:40:39 PM EDT

[#32]

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Originally Posted By @GLShooter:
The 22X6.8 is far superior to either the N or V but for the average guy that wants OTC ammunition it just won't happen for them. I can shoot 90's in it with careful selection but my focus has been on the 87's and under and at mag length it hammers those all the way down to the 40's with a 1:8 twist thanks to the polygon rifling.

Greg

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I got confused with the highlighted part.
I thought that the .224 Valkyrie was the 6.8 SPC case necked down to .224"/5.56mm.
Are you talking about a .22 x 6.8 SPC wildcat that differs from the .224 Valkyrie? Do you have the specs or a link to them on this?
Curious on this to understand your perspective on this.

Thanks,

Posted: 6/21/2018 5:06:14 PM EDT

[#33]

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Quoted:
I got confused with the highlighted part.
I thought that the .224 Valkyrie was the 6.8 SPC case necked down to .224"/5.56mm.
Are you talking about a .22 x 6.8 SPC wildcat that differs from the .224 Valkyrie? Do you have the specs or a link to them on this?
Curious on this to understand your perspective on this.

Thanks,

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The V. is a 6.8 necked down and shortened. The 22X6.8 I speak of is a straight neck down 6.8 with the full 43 MM case. Given that one wants to shoot less than 90 grain bullets it will out run the V and the 22 Nosler because of the pressure difference and flexibility because it can use longer bullets over the 22 Nosler. We run the pressure up to 57,000 about like the SPC II runs vs. 55,00 for the V. or the N and have no issues with case life. Cases are formed with with either bushing dies or a standard, custom, type dies that takes them down in one step. Hornady has made some and Redding ,has them available with a special order.

I'm shooting a 50 Nolser at 3750 and destroying PD's in a 1:8 twist BHW, no longer done by them, and using heavier bullets I have no problem out doing the 22 Nosler that is faster than the VALK.. I've probably shot as many of them as anyone around. I've been shooting it side by side with the Nosler a bit and am still sold on it even though it is no OTC. Tactical Ordnance is a current supplier for 22X6.8's . I am shooting a 6X6.8 from them that is outstanding in speeds and groups . It is a five polygon like the 22 version BTW.

Feel free to contact me if you want more information. Always glad to share about stuff I helped develop. Also I mistyped and I meant to say 77 vs. 87's in the 22X6.8.

Greg

Posted: 6/27/2018 8:06:07 PM EDT

[#34]

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Quoted:
I received my Bison Armory 20" 1:6.5 twist SPR barrel. It looks great, all to spec, M4 extension, 5/8-24 muzzle threads and well finished.

I took it out today to zero and just shoot it. The only ammo I have is the American Eagle 75gr FMJ. The box has 3000fps. I averaged 2789fps, ex-spread 92 and std-dev of 24. After playing around and zeroing it in, the last two groups were .75 MOA and .55 MOA at 100 yards. All groups were MOA or better. This is data from 20 shots or so. I will need to shoot more to see how consistent it is. So far, so good.

I used a Harris s-brm bipod, sand bags and the glass was a Sightron S-3 6-24x50 FFP mil.

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Posting in this thread as it’s the most active 224V thread.

Just got my 20” 6.5tw Craddock this week. Fired a couple of 75gr AE out the back, over my Labradar. Avg of 2863 fps.

Interesting that it is 137 fps slower than Federals 24” numbers.

What are the Larue guys seeing out of their 20” tubes?

Posted: 6/28/2018 1:36:30 AM EDT

[#35]

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Quoted:

Posting in this thread as it’s the most active 224V thread.

Just got my 20” 6.5tw Craddock this week. Fired a couple of 75gr AE out the back, over my Labradar. Avg of 2863 fps.

Interesting that it is 137 fps slower than Federals 24” numbers.

What are the Larue guys seeing out of their 20” tubes?

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That's a little under a 35 fps per inch loss in velocity. That seems legit to me.

Posted: 6/28/2018 9:17:26 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Posting in this thread as it's the most active 224V thread.

Just got my 20" 6.5tw Craddock this week. Fired a couple of 75gr AE out the back, over my Labradar. Avg of 2863 fps.

Interesting that it is 137 fps slower than Federals 24" numbers.

What are the Larue guys seeing out of their 20" tubes?

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I received my Bison Armory 20" 1:6.5 twist SPR barrel. It looks great, all to spec, M4 extension, 5/8-24 muzzle threads and well finished.

I took it out today to zero and just shoot it. The only ammo I have is the American Eagle 75gr FMJ. The box has 3000fps. I averaged 2789fps, ex-spread 92 and std-dev of 24. After playing around and zeroing it in, the last two groups were .75 MOA and .55 MOA at 100 yards. All groups were MOA or better. This is data from 20 shots or so. I will need to shoot more to see how consistent it is. So far, so good.

I used a Harris s-brm bipod, sand bags and the glass was a Sightron S-3 6-24x50 FFP mil.

Posting in this thread as it's the most active 224V thread.

Just got my 20" 6.5tw Craddock this week. Fired a couple of 75gr AE out the back, over my Labradar. Avg of 2863 fps.

Interesting that it is 137 fps slower than Federals 24" numbers.

What are the Larue guys seeing out of their 20" tubes?

When I tested out of a 24" I exceeded Federals published 24" numbers by 25-75 fps IIRC

Posted: 6/28/2018 10:33:56 AM EDT

[#37]

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Quoted:

That's a little under a 35 fps per inch loss in velocity. That seems legit to me.

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I guess I could have phrased it better... I didn't mean that I thought that was slower than expected. I really just wanted to provide my data point and compare to other's numbers.

Curious to see where the 90gr SMK and the new Hornady 88gr load ends up. Guessing it'll be in the ~2575 range.

Posted: 6/28/2018 11:45:19 AM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

I guess I could have phrased it better... I didn't mean that I thought that was slower than expected. I really just wanted to provide my data point and compare to other's numbers.

Curious to see where the 90gr SMK and the new Hornady 88gr load ends up. Guessing it'll be in the ~2575 range.

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My mistake.

I would say you're pretty accurate with your estimate. I have data from some earlier lots of the 90gr FGMM through a 20" JP barrel and it was about 2650. I have read on a couple of the Valkyrie FB groups that more current lots are a little lower pressure. Hornady is listing the velocity of the 88gr ELD loads the same as Federal so I would expect them to be very similar in velocity through your 20" barrel.

Posted: 6/28/2018 10:10:50 PM EDT

[#39]

who all is taking their rifles to 1k? over 500yds? lots of tslk about this vs that and whats gonna work better, but have you all shot the valk to what its made for? 1k+? i have, and its damn fun. my 20" 224v wae showing 2780-2800 with the 80gr eld-m.....do you need more? that bigger pill will.drop more and be slower......seems like that murican "bigger is better" mentality of making things harder applies here.....

ill have chrono numbers for a 90deg day soon to see max fps for the year

Posted: 7/2/2018 10:32:55 PM EDT

[#40]

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Quoted:
Wake me when someone shows up with a more accurate barrel than my 224V 1-in-7" twists.

.

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Have you read about this yet?

http://www.224valkyrieforum.com/index.php?topic=75.0

Personally I have a PSA barrel and one of yours on the way to swap to.

Posted: 7/2/2018 10:58:04 PM EDT

[#41]

^^^

Somebody make that hot for me.

Posted: 7/2/2018 11:08:18 PM EDT

[#42]

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Quoted:
^^^

Somebody make that hot for me.

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http://www.224valkyrieforum.com/index.php?topic=75.0

Posted: 7/2/2018 11:11:57 PM EDT

[#43]

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Quoted:
^^^

Somebody make that hot for me.

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Sorry, it was hot. Don't know what changed. Thanks Easy.

I'm just thinking this could be why some other barrels aren't grouping well.

Posted: 7/2/2018 11:30:12 PM EDT

[#44]

www.224valkyrieforum.com

Posted: 7/3/2018 12:49:39 PM EDT

[#45]

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Quoted:
^^^

Somebody make that hot for me.

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Mark, can you let us know how much freebore your reamers provide? I could test my barrel, but figured you would know. My barrel shoots great, so whatever freebore it has seems to work on my build just fine.

Posted: 7/3/2018 1:36:53 PM EDT

[#46]

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Quoted:

Mark, can you let us know how much freebore your reamers provide? I could test my barrel, but figured you would know.

My barrel shoots great, so whatever freebore it has seems to work on my build just fine.

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Wake me when someone shows up with a more accurate barrel than my 224V 1-in-7" twists.

.

Posted: 7/3/2018 1:51:03 PM EDT

[#47]

My only question was if you heard anything about this issue. I have faith in you and your company from way back. I don’t have a single weapon that doesn’t have something from you on it. I have the 224V barrel arriving on Thursday and I figured if any one got it right it was you.