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I think the point is 300 is Silent suppressed, 45 is not silent suppressed. Only reason to use 220 grain subsonic is for silence, why the F compare it to 45? Well that is something you would have to determine. What is your primary use? Are you on a special ops team that only does silent entries in CQB situations? Are you using it for home defense? For fun? I'm just saying if you are choosing an SBR for maneuverability in close quarters and it is for an HD or combat situation, I would pick the terminal performance of the .45 over the quiet of the 300blk in 220 grain. I have rifles in multiple calibers but my bedside gun is a Glock 21 with Federal HST 230 +P's. Extremely accurrate, compact and manueverable, and quick to deploy. Why on Earth would you use a subsonic load for HD when the 300BLK supersonic load is hearing safe suppressed, can defeat body armor, and provides over three times the energy and enough velocity to expand existing bullets at CQB range? The 300BLK advantage for the civilian is that you can recreationally shoot super quiet subs and hunting-worthy supers out of the same gun with no modifications. The 300BLK advantage for the professional is that you can start with subs for quiet work and instantly switch to hard-hitting supers with a mag change if things got really hot or a longer range engagement were required. The .mil came to AAC asking for this capability- it is not a round inventing a purpose for itself. |
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The B.C. is .608 for 1000fps. .629 is the highest at 2100fps to 5000fps Energy 489.5 - muzzle 473.2 - 50 458.2 - 100 431.3 - 200 drop +3.2 50 yards -34.4 200 yards Still not a nickles worth of difference. Very informative! Obviously, the 300 Blackout is still a concept under development. If a person does not own a suppressor, I don't understand why they would want a blackout when they could have something like the 7.62x40. Blackout subsonic terminal performance is not what it could be because only rifle bullets are currently available. The heavy 7.62 bullets have awesome sectional density, but someone needs to manufacture a cheap heavy bullet that will expand at subsonic velocities. Apparently, this is a well known fact, and people are working on it. For some reason, the "detractors" seem to have an almost religious fervor in their passion. I don't understand why they care about it so much. I think they have made a very valid comparison between the subsonic 300 AAC and a 220gr 45 acp +p+ round (although, they may have overstated the .45 acp muzzle velocity). For practical purposes the trajectories are the same. IMO, the 300 AAC holds the promise of superior terminal performance for hunting due to the sectional density (when expanding bullets are developed). I have always wanted to have an ar15 based .45acp SBR. The problem is, no one has yet made a reliable .45 upper that uses a standard lower receiver and reliable, high capacity magazines. Even the experimental AR45's require expensive mag blocks, modified low cap magazines, new bolt and carrier, and a new barrel. It is retarded to do all this work, and replace every single part in an AR15 just to shoot 45 acp. Besides, current AR45's tend to be jam-o-matics. With the blackout, I can buy a barrel for $150 and essentially have an AR45 that works with all standard parts. The high sectional density holds promise for the future in terms of hunting applications or barrier penetration. Some communities still use the .45 acp carbine for QCB because it works. |
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.Sierra 220 should have been calculated at 1000 fps (that is the proper velocity out of 9" barrels), and the BC is actually 0.710 for G1 in the 900-1000 fps range. The numbers you ran were incorrect Forest. The MV was given by the person claiming the .300 was better than the .45 The Sierra website claims both of our numbers are wrong. http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&stock_num=2240&bullettype=0 .608 is what Sierra says. The number I used was in the database at JBM Ballitics for the 220gr SMK I'll re-run it with the same MV and the new BC: @Muzzle 445.4 ft-lbs @50y 432.3 ft-lbs +3.6" @100y 420.1 ft-lbs 0 @200y 397.7 ft-lbs -37.8" Interesting, the numbers didn't change. It would seem while the JBM calc displayed a BC of .494 G1 it really used a .608 (because when I run it with .494 there is a small drop). For grins I used your figures (even though you don't document where you got them). @Muzzle 489.4 ft-lbs @50y 475.3 ft-lbs +3.2" @100y 462.3 ft-lbs 0 @200y 438.6 ft-lbs -34.1" Still not seeing a nickles worth of difference. |
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I'm using the SIerra Matchking 220gr at 1000fps. Not the Litz bullet. Is this what your are using? JBM has it listed at what I have in my last post. That was the exact same bullet I used in my initial calculations. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think the point is 300 is Silent suppressed, 45 is not silent suppressed. Only reason to use 220 grain subsonic is for silence, why the F compare it to 45? Well that is something you would have to determine. What is your primary use? Are you on a special ops team that only does silent entries in CQB situations? Are you using it for home defense? For fun? I'm just saying if you are choosing an SBR for maneuverability in close quarters and it is for an HD or combat situation, I would pick the terminal performance of the .45 over the quiet of the 300blk in 220 grain. I have rifles in multiple calibers but my bedside gun is a Glock 21 with Federal HST 230 +P's. Extremely accurrate, compact and manueverable, and quick to deploy. Why on Earth would you use a subsonic load for HD when the 300BLK supersonic load is hearing safe suppressed, can defeat body armor, and provides over three times the energy and enough velocity to expand existing bullets at CQB range? The 300BLK advantage for the civilian is that you can recreationally shoot super quiet subs and hunting-worthy supers out of the same gun with no modifications. The 300BLK advantage for the professional is that you can start with subs for quiet work and instantly switch to hard-hitting supers with a mag change if things got really hot or a longer range engagement were required. The .mil came to AAC asking for this capability- it is not a round inventing a purpose for itself. This says what I was trying to say, only more eloquently. |
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I'm not arguing that the round has no merit, just that it is a specialized caliber for a specific job and should be marketed for that. If you are considering hunting at anything over 30.30 distances, I would look elsewhere. The thing is, around my part of the country with the thick woods, the 30/30 has taken as much or more deer than any other round, and most of your shots are under 200 yards. With the .300 Blackout, if you choose to suppress it, you have something that can fill that specialized role with subs on one hand, and then with supers hunt just as well as a 30/30 round unsuppressed.
The areas I hunt, when I get to hunt, have a lot more distance. One is a power line area beside a friends house that goes to 500 yards, and one is a farm ( as long as the cows are grazing across the highway in the other field ), that is 750 yards. I wouldn't take game over 400 yards personally with my 6.8, even though it can go a bit further effectively, so the 6.8 is better for me for that reason, and, I can't afford a suppressor right now, plus, the 6.8 is hard to make cycle between the two. One guy has done it with a full auto and a switch block, but not everybody has hit that sweet spot. If I do suppress one of these things, the .300 Blackout would likely be my choice. |
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If I do suppress one of these things, the .300 Blackout would likely be my choice. Why not get your 6.8 running with subs? After seeing there is no difference in a sub WTF and a ,45, I don't think I'll be drinking the aac koolaid anytime soon. |
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Why on Earth would you use a subsonic load for HD when the 300BLK supersonic load is hearing safe suppressed, can defeat body armor, and provides over three times the energy and enough velocity to expand existing bullets at CQB range?
Pardon me, but isn't this what I've been saying the whole thread???? |
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For some reason, the "detractors" seem to have an almost religious fervor in their passion. I don't understand why they care about it so much. My fervor is only equal to the misinformation regarding realistic performance of the .300 blk round. I think they have made a very valid comparison between the subsonic 300 AAC and a 220gr 45 acp +p+ round (although, they may have overstated the .45 acp muzzle velocity). The stated peformance of the .45 at 1000 fps was from a 6 inch barrel, not the 950 fps for the 4.6 inch barrel. This was compared to the 9 inch .300 blk velocities. Handgun powders are tuned to shorter barrels. The negative velocity occurs at about 12 inches and the improvement from 8 to 12 is negligible. After that, barrels any longer will actually produce less MV. |
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If I do suppress one of these things, the .300 Blackout would likely be my choice. Why not get your 6.8 running with subs? After seeing there is no difference in a sub WTF and a ,45, I don't think I'll be drinking the aac koolaid anytime soon. I could do that, but if I run subs I want it to be from a suppressed rifle. I have seen one guy get a 6.8 to operate correctly with subs and a suppressor, and still be able to run it with supersonics, He uses an adjustable gas block and an enlarged gas port. His was full auto as well. HTR tried for ages to get one to run right both ways and wound up with a single shot suppressed with the subs. Now I'm talking about SBR's since that's the context of this thread. I don't know if possibly a 6.8 can dual function with a 126" barrel. I'm sure I could get one to run SBR'd suppressed, and subs, and then work switching over without any changes given enough time to do it. If one guy can, someone else can, it's just mechanics and that can be duplicated. Right now, if you want to run a 6.8 that way, you get it running suppressed , and you adjust the gas block, and change out the spring and the buffer and run it normally. It's really not that much, a minute or two, but it's still extra stuff. I'd like to be able to just change the gas and go. The other thing is that the 6.8, even the heavier bullets don't have the mass to hit very hard at subsonic velocities. If I just want to suppress it and run supers, it's still quieter than unsuppressed, and plenty powerful, and something I plan to do. I just look at the .300 BLK this way. It's kind of like having an AK47 in an AR, but that's easier to suppress and once done, is quiet as hell. |
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I've always wanted a good .45 acp subgun suppressed. Ahh, one can only dream... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=265745616 This is my answer and I hesitate to post this because someone will scream bias, but here it is... 6.8 XCR with 7.5 inch barrel. Off course this is as long as a 9 inch barrelled SBR AR but sports a full 16 inch barrel in 6.8 which is shootable for a few rounds without hearing protection... Uploaded with ImageShack.us |
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I was really leaning towards getting one of those in 6.8, but for some reason I hesitated. Nice rig up top too.
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This is what I want to replicate if possible. http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/aac-honey-badger/101211od_ausa11137.jpg That is such a sweet little piece. I love the stock and how it's integrated with the upper. |
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If I do suppress one of these things, the .300 Blackout would likely be my choice. Why not get your 6.8 running with subs? After seeing there is no difference in a sub WTF and a ,45, I don't think I'll be drinking the aac koolaid anytime soon. This quote has ignorance written all over it. Do you think that a 6.8mm projectile at 1000fps will have better performance than a heavier 7.62mm projectile at 1000fps? The bottom line is, all subs suck and bigger heavier subs suck less than little light subs. If the 300 sub is like a .45, the 6.8 sub might be more like a 38 special. |
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If I do suppress one of these things, the .300 Blackout would likely be my choice. Why not get your 6.8 running with subs? After seeing there is no difference in a sub WTF and a ,45, I don't think I'll be drinking the aac koolaid anytime soon. This quote has ignorance written all over it. Do you think that a 6.8mm projectile at 1000fps will have better performance than a heavier 7.62mm projectile at 1000fps? The bottom line is, all subs suck and bigger heavier subs suck less than little light subs. If the 300 sub is like a .45, the 6.8 sub might be more like a 38 special. The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonice loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. |
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The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonice loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. Seriously?? How many BGs have been taken out by suppressed FMJ subsonic 9mm? The 220gr subsonic 300BLK has 50% more energy, yet it sucks? Ninja, please... |
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If I do suppress one of these things, the .300 Blackout would likely be my choice. Why not get your 6.8 running with subs? After seeing there is no difference in a sub WTF and a ,45, I don't think I'll be drinking the aac koolaid anytime soon. This quote has ignorance written all over it. Do you think that a 6.8mm projectile at 1000fps will have better performance than a heavier 7.62mm projectile at 1000fps? The bottom line is, all subs suck and bigger heavier subs suck less than little light subs. If the 300 sub is like a .45, the 6.8 sub might be more like a 38 special. The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonic loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. FWIW Dr Roberts has recently written about the virtues of a .308-.311 caliber bullet in the 125gr weight range performing very well in terminal performance testing at velocities common with 300BLK and 7.62x39. It is not a long range performer, but for LE and most civilian defensive purposes it will perform quite well and much better than 5.56. I'll see if I can dig up the post. ETA: Here's one quote from the Doc from July, "300BLK is a great MP5SD replacement, with substantially more versatility than a 9mm SMG. In an SBR configuration 300BLK has far better terminal ballistics than 4.6mm and 5.7 mm PDW's. Likewise 300BLK has the potential for better terminal performance and intermediate barrier penetration than 5.56 mm from SBR's. In supersonic form from 16" barrels 300BLK offers terminal ballistics on par with 7.62x39mm or lower weight .30-30's. It should be a very good LE caliber with the right ammunition. The key is getting appropriate .30 cal bullets produced that are designed to work at the lower 300BLK velocities instead of .308/.30-06/.300WM velocities. So far we have not seen any optimized 300BLK loads." ETA2: M4C keeps timing out my browser so I can't get to the other quote but it was a review of the new Winchester (IIRC) 7.62x39 load. It had very good results in gel testing and Doc mentioned how the 300BLK with a similar bullet would also be an excellent performer. Barnes has released several bullets recently optimized for this velocity window so the 300BLK is a very realistic option for a defensive caliber and it only looks like things will improve with time. |
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The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonice loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. Seriously?? How many BGs have been taken out by suppressed FMJ subsonic 9mm? The 220gr subsonic 300BLK has 50% more energy, yet it sucks? Ninja, please... Significantly less than have been killed with a .22 pistol by BG's, but that does not mean I am going to start carrying a .22. |
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The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonice loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. Seriously?? How many BGs have been taken out by suppressed FMJ subsonic 9mm? The 220gr subsonic 300BLK has 50% more energy, yet it sucks? Ninja, please... Energy is one component of terminal performance but it certainly isn't an accurate measure of performance by itself. Energy is merely the potential to cause damage, not the actual result. An expanding 9mm bullet with half the energy would do more damage than a non-expanding 300BLK bullet in most cases. With the right bullet the 300BLK has more potential, but those bullets are currently a handload only proposition and are very expensive. |
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The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonice loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. Seriously?? How many BGs have been taken out by suppressed FMJ subsonic 9mm? The 220gr subsonic 300BLK has 50% more energy, yet it sucks? Ninja, please... Energy is one component of terminal performance but it certainly isn't an accurate measure of performance by itself. Energy is merely the potential to cause damage, not the actual result. An expanding 9mm bullet with half the energy would do more damage than a non-expanding 300BLK bullet in most cases. With the right bullet the 300BLK has more potential, but those bullets are currently a handload only proposition and are very expensive. You do know what "FMJ" stands for, right? Additionally, an FMJ 9mm doesn't do damage while tumbling like we've already seen the Remington 220gr load do in an increasing number of one-shot kills on hogs and deer. You do know that people are out there killing things with 300BLK subs every day, right? Anyway, you're making an apples to oranges comparison by comparing EXISTING 300BLK factory-loaded subs with expanding 9mm. You can reload an Outlaw expanding bullet now, or wait for the Barnes expanding bullet in development. |
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The ingnorance is on your behalf. The WTF sucks using super sonice loads, much less a sub. Just because it has 7.62 in the name, doens't mean it is the hot shit. What you have is a weak 7.62 throwing heavy bullets like a mortar. It is fun suppressed, don't get me wrong but don't talk it up like the next best thing. Seriously?? How many BGs have been taken out by suppressed FMJ subsonic 9mm? The 220gr subsonic 300BLK has 50% more energy, yet it sucks? Ninja, please... Energy is one component of terminal performance but it certainly isn't an accurate measure of performance by itself. Energy is merely the potential to cause damage, not the actual result. An expanding 9mm bullet with half the energy would do more damage than a non-expanding 300BLK bullet in most cases. With the right bullet the 300BLK has more potential, but those bullets are currently a handload only proposition and are very expensive. You do know what "FMJ" stands for, right? Additionally, an FMJ 9mm doesn't do damage while tumbling like we've already seen the Remington 220gr load do in an increasing number of one-shot kills on hogs and deer. You do know that people are out there killing things with 300BLK subs every day, right? Anyway, you're making an apples to oranges comparison by comparing EXISTING 300BLK factory-loaded subs with expanding 9mm. You can reload an Outlaw expanding bullet now, or wait for the Barnes expanding bullet in development. I was merely pointing out your incorrect assertion that energy is what makes the 300BLK more effective. You called another poster a name and used an argument that is completely false to support your position. Any advantage a 220gr FMJ would have over a 9mm FMJ would be due to bullet yaw in tissue. Bullet yaw in tissue is inconsistent and so is the effectiveness of the temporary stretch cavity that it causes. Relying on such a mechanism for wounding is a bad choice. Comparing a 300BLK subsonic FMJ and a 9mm subsonic FMJ is like arguing over whether Obama or Hilary Clinton would make a better President. Both are bad choices. I then pointed out a more useful comparison between two expanding subsonic bullets and agree that the 300BLK is at least as good if not better. I pointed out that the OSB bullets are reloading only and expensive because someone looking to build a subsonic 300BLK for hunting would need to know that. Accurate information is a good thing. |
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I was merely pointing out your incorrect assertion that energy is what makes the 300BLK more effective. You called another poster a name and used an argument that is completely false to support your position. Any advantage a 220gr FMJ would have over a 9mm FMJ would be due to bullet yaw in tissue. Bullet yaw in tissue is inconsistent and so is the effectiveness of the temporary stretch cavity that it causes. Relying on such a mechanism for wounding is a bad choice. Comparing a 300BLK subsonic FMJ and a 9mm subsonic FMJ is like arguing over whether Obama or Hilary Clinton would make a better President. Both are bad choices. I then pointed out a more useful comparison between two expanding subsonic bullets and agree that the 300BLK is at least as good if not better. I pointed out that the OSB bullets are reloading only and expensive because someone looking to build a subsonic 300BLK for hunting would need to know that. Accurate information is a good thing. I called another poster a name? You mean "Ninja, please..."? I guess you aren't familiar with this, then... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ns-kXeQCMk The rest of your post just misses the forest for the trees. For example, is it really expensive to pay $2 a shot when you want to KILL SOMETHING OR SOMEONE? That's absurd. Nobody is going to use expanding rounds for subsonic plinking, and you don't need to invest in hundreds of rounds for hunting. One box will do you for several seasons unless you are actually harvesting a lot of game, to which I would say $2/animal is cheap. Heck, every time I aim at a deer and pull the trigger on my Scorpyd RDT165, I'm out $30 worth of broad head and arrow, but I still do it because I get several hundred dollars worth of venison in exchange. If you have a real need for expanding subsonic but feel you can't afford the ammo, you have screwed up priorities. Besides, as I said previously, who in their right mind would use subsonics for SD/HD? So, for civies, the killing power of FMJ 300BLK subsonic is only applicable to hunting, and again as I previously stated, there are more and more stories and photos of deer and pigs being taken by the Remington 220gr load all the time. I have yet to see a story about it performing badly. If someone wants 6.8, great, but saying the 300BLK is ineffective, as some posters are saying, is just plain garbage. The 300BLK supersonic is plenty powerful in its intended range of about 300m for most game animals that you'd hunt with a 6.8. Realistically, most who talk about or ask about performance beyond that range don't have the experience at those ranges to know that is better left to .308 and above in real world conditions. |
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...just misses the forest for the trees. My woodland pattern M65 works again! |
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.. The 300BLK supersonic is plenty powerful in its intended range of about 300m for most game animals. Based on what data? I haven't seen a .300 round that will expand or fragment to 300y. Best I've found so far that is available will perform to 125yards. If you're round isn't expanding then you might as well use a FMJ - which many states prohibit. |
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Quoted: Quoted: .. The 300BLK supersonic is plenty powerful in its intended range of about 300m for most game animals. Based on what data? I haven't seen a .300 round that will expand or fragment to 300y. Best I've found so far that is available will perform to 125yards. If you're round isn't expanding then you might as well use a FMJ - which many states prohibit. I (mostly) agree with this. The 125g Nosler BT will expand reliably down to 1800 fps, and the .300 BLK factory load from PNW is at that velocity at 200 yards. The .300 BLK's supersonic loads are comparable to the .30-30 Winchester, which I would rely on to humanely kill deer-sized game out to 150 yards. I like the 120g Nosler BT in my Grendel, which maintains 1800 fps a bit past 300 yards. The 130g Nosler BT should perform about the same in 6.8 (with maybe a bit more range @ 1800 fps...) |
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The 125g Nosler BT will expand reliably down to 1800 fps, and the .300 BLK factory load is at that velocity at 200 yards. . Good bit of info. Thanks. |
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I called another poster a name? You mean "Ninja, please..."? I guess you aren't familiar with this, then... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ns-kXeQCMk Nope, thought the reference was to Mall Ninja The rest of your post just misses the forest for the trees. For example, is it really expensive to pay $2 a shot when you want to KILL SOMETHING OR SOMEONE? That's absurd. Nobody is going to use expanding rounds for subsonic plinking, and you don't need to invest in hundreds of rounds for hunting. One box will do you for several seasons unless you are actually harvesting a lot of game, to which I would say $2/animal is cheap. Heck, every time I aim at a deer and pull the trigger on my Scorpyd RDT165, I'm out $30 worth of broad head and arrow, but I still do it because I get several hundred dollars worth of venison in exchange. If you have a real need for expanding subsonic but feel you can't afford the ammo, you have screwed up priorities. Besides, as I said previously, who in their right mind would use subsonics for SD/HD? So, for civies, the killing power of FMJ 300BLK subsonic is only applicable to hunting, and again as I previously stated, there are more and more stories and photos of deer and pigs being taken by the Remington 220gr load all the time. I have yet to see a story about it performing badly. If someone wants 6.8, great, but saying the 300BLK is ineffective, as some posters are saying, is just plain garbage. The 300BLK supersonic is plenty powerful in its intended range of about 300m for most game animals that you'd hunt with a 6.8. Realistically, most who talk about or ask about performance beyond that range don't have the experience at those ranges to know that is better left to .308 and above in real world conditions. Of course it is acceptable to pay $2/round for hunting ammo but many hunters do not reload so it is simply unavailable to them. Also, working up accurate loads with bullets that are that expensive is not a cheap proposition. As stated in an earlier post of mine, subsonics are not for home defense and I explained why. When it comes to hunting with the 220gr SMK (not a true FMJ BTW) you should read up on quarterbore. They've been doing it much longer than the 300BLK has been around and there are stories of shots not killing cleanly. It can happen with any bullet but is much more likely with a non-expanding bullet and I don't condone it. I would not consider the 300BLK to be a 300 yard (or meter) cartridge. 150 yards, sure, but not 300. You can get bullets that are at their lower expansion threshold at those ranges like the Barnes 110gr TAC-X SBR and the new 110gr TTSX. Both will expand down below 1500fps (reportedly down as far as 1300fps actually) and they will still be traveling over 1500fps at 250 yards and 1300fps at 350 yards from a 16" barrel but you are getting into the nebulous area between big heavy slow bullets that only have permanent crush and small expanding fast bullets that contribute to wounding through temp cavity. I also don't know how the penetration will be with these small bullets at those reduced velocities. I'm not yet convinced this will be acceptable because I haven't seen data on it yet but it will be interesting to see it develop. Links to the bullets: TAC-X SBR TTSX for 7.62x40 (works equally well in 300BLK) Outlaw State Bullets |
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.When it comes to hunting with the 220gr SMK (not a true FMJ BTW) you should read up on quarterbore. .. There is a good post on this on another M4 related site in a thread about the .300 300 Whisper Subsonic Rounds on Deer
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/php...ic.php?t=25906 (link no longer functional) Well guys, I have read several post on the 300 Whisper with sonic loads for deer but have never read any on subsonic rounds. So I thought I would share the experience of Doc Roger's aka The Hit Man. For those of you who don't know about Doc, he belongs to JD Jones, HHI (Handgun Hunters International) and writes great articles in the SIXGUNNER. Doc has shot 9000 groundhogs and 1000 deer with handguns. Doc lives in W.VA and has a sign up sheet in his office for deer meat and people call him with crop damage permits. During 2002 Doc shot 151 deer. For the record he cleaned every deer and the meat was given to people to eat. Here is Doc's article from the April 2003 SIXGUNNER. 300 Whisper (12-2002) (33-2001), total 45) Let's get this out of the way. Yeah, you've read about the .300 Screamer (.300 Whisper with 125 grain whatever at a gazillion fps.) Well , that's not a true Whisper. The real deal is a 240 grain Sierra Match HPBT less than 1000 fps (speed of sound) , with a "can", mil -dot scope, etc. In other words , a fully tricked out SSK masterpiece that is QUITE. Here's the deal : 16" SSK barrel, the "can" T/C folding stock , 221 Fireball case necked to .308 Sierra 240 grain Match HPBT, 8.1 grains of WW296 (1050 fps) BSA mil-dot lighted reticule, 4-16 power. A work of art and a deer's worst night-mare. How does a slow, non-expanding Match HP kill? It tumbles end over end, creating some weird holes in muscles and skin. The typical response in a Whispered deer is to stand or walk slowly after being hit if it doesn't see the shooter. Internal bleeding begins immediately and in 30-60 seconds the deer looses enough blood to shut down all the internal processes. An alerted deer usually runs until it runs out of blood, i.e. speed x time # distance run. The maximum I've seen is about 250 yards. The key is not to alert the deer. I've taken a lot of broadside shots in which the deer runs 30-80 yards before dying. A shoulder blade hit usually results in knock down. About half get up and run a little. A straight on shot is good if kept very low or very high. The low hits rip the heart causing heavy bleeding and runs of less that 50 yards. The high hits get the spine causing in instant knock downs. I've done about six Texas heart shots. They walk real funny for 10-20 yards, then drop. The bullet stays in the chest cavity. Bleeding is usually very heavy from the aorta being hit. J.D. gave me some old 250 grain Match Kings, no longer made. They are VERY long. Although I don't have absolute proof, I thing they do a little better due to the increased tearing activity. I've take deer with these two bullets from 40-206 yards. The latter was instant knockdown and death from a spine hit. I had to hold four dots above the cross hair. Using a range finder with this gun is mandatory. I asked J.D. about using other bullets. HE didn't think they would work since all shorter and probably would not tumble. I had to try. I shot a doe coming out of the corn with a 220 grain Sierra HPBT at 140 yards. She keep feeding. I figured I'd missed, so I just waited. Another doe came out at 50 yards. I shot behind the shoulder. She kept feeding Now I was screwed up in the head. I figured I'd lost it and couldn't shoot anymore. While I was berating myself doe #2 dropped dead. I search a long time before I could find the pinpoint hole over the lungs. Autopsy showed a double lung hit, very little tissue damage, but a chest full of blood. After cleaning this doe I went back to doe #2 . She was lying there dead. Same results. This 220 grain bullet is not LONG enough to get unstable to tumble. The deer didn't even realize they were hit. Strange. I got rid of these bullets, had one more idea. How about a 220 grain Sierra round nose? The blunt nose should make the yaw and tumble. The round nose and flat base should create a good bit of tissue damage. Instant success!!! You can hear and see this bullet hit. About a third of the hits are knockdowns. The rest run less than 100 yards on good lung hits or less that 300 yards on marginal hits. Straight on cheat hits are usually instant killers. This round nose bullet holds trajectory very well. It's very close to the MatchKing . The longest shot was 180 yards. Exit holes were jagged. Bleeding is usually heavier than with the 240 HP. Deer seem to run less and die faster with the round nose. There is one big problem with the Whisper. I can't get it out of people hands once they shoot it. One farmer shot four deer in 45 seconds. He wanted to do more. The deer were just milling around. I had to take the gun from him and remind him HE had four deer to clean. |
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The .300 BLK's supersonic loads are comparable to the .30-30 Winchester, which I would rely on to humanely kill deer-sized game out to 150 yards. I What 300BLK do you have that will shoot a 150gr bullet at 2400fps like a 30-30 will? I believe you are thinking of a 125gr bullet at 2250 from the BLK. The BLK isn't as fast as a 7.62x39 with the same weight bullet. http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/tcyfix0cwdvdyigouhad_medium.jpg My Hornady manual shows 2300fps as the max for a 150gr bullet in a 20" barreled 30/30. Expecting a 100fps loss to a 16" that would be 2200fps. I don't think a 300BLK could safely push a 150gr to 2200fps from a 16" but I think it could get close, maybe 2000-2100fps. I show 2600fps for a 110gr bullet from a 30/30 in a 20" barrel. I get 2600fps from 110gr bullets in a 16" 7.62x40 which is typically 200fps faster than 300BLK so I would think the 300BLK is about 100fps slower than the 30/30 which is 100fps slower than the 7.62x40. As bullet weights go up, however, the 300BLK will close the gap with the 7.62x40 due to OAL issues (longer bullets encroach more on the 7.62x40 due to the longer brass case and the same OAL limit) and the 30/30 should pull away from both due to the higher case capacity. |
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I found that quote from Dr Roberts I was looking for:
"It is interesting to see how well a .30 caliber bullet launched at around 2300 fps performed; with properly designed barrier blind projectiles, we just might find that the .300 BLK offers ideal terminal performance for LE use." It is no secret that Dr Roberts is a huge proponent of 6.8SPC so consider that when he's saying 300BLK may be "ideal" for LE use. LE and civilian engagements have historically been well within the range of the 300BLK and range is it's most limiting factor IMO. |
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If someone wants 6.8, great, but saying the 300BLK is ineffective, as some posters are saying, is just plain garbage. The 300BLK supersonic is plenty powerful in its intended range of about 300m for most game animals that you'd hunt with a 6.8. Realistically, most who talk about or ask about performance beyond that range don't have the experience at those ranges to know that is better left to .308 and above in real world conditions. I never said the WTF was ineffective. However, it isn't near the performance of a 6.8 so you can squash all that BS. Compare it to a AK if you want to try and sound smart. 300M? The WTF for hunting? Now you have really lost your onion. Might be great for hitting steel or paper, if you are used to shooting mortars. At that range leave it to a 6.8 or something more powerful. |
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... I get 2600fps from 110gr bullets in a 16" 7.62x40 which is typically 200fps faster than 300BLK so I would think the 300BLK is about 100fps slower than the 30/30 which is 100fps slower than the 7.62x40... altair, data point: i cant get to 2400 w/my wilson 16" barreled 300blks shooting 110vmax over h110... i got close, chrono 2340 w/21gr H110 but this load was showing too much press - 20.6gr @ 2320 is my limit... |
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The .300 BLK's supersonic loads are comparable to the .30-30 Winchester, which I would rely on to humanely kill deer-sized game out to 150 yards. I What 300BLK do you have that will shoot a 150gr bullet at 2400fps like a 30-30 will? I believe you are thinking of a 125gr bullet at 2250 from the BLK. The BLK isn't as fast as a 7.62x39 with the same weight bullet. The 300 BLK, from a 16 inch barrel (a.k.a 300-221 Fireball, 300 Whisper etc...) will push a 150 g bullet to ~2000 fps* and 125 g bullet to about 2250 fps**. In a similar length barrel the 30-30 will have about ~150 fps*** more velocity than the 300BLK. So to say the .300 BLK's supersonic loads are comparable to the .30-30 Winchester is not really off the mark. *Reference source: Load data from Hornaday and Sierra manuals shot in four different 300-221 Fireball 16 inch barrels. **Reference source: Load data from Hornaday and Sierra manuals shot in four different 300-221 Fireball 16 inch barrels. ***Reference source from Speer (14" pistol and 20" rifle barrels)and Hodgdon (14" pistol and 24" rifle barrels) reloading manuals. |
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... I get 2600fps from 110gr bullets in a 16" 7.62x40 which is typically 200fps faster than 300BLK so I would think the 300BLK is about 100fps slower than the 30/30 which is 100fps slower than the 7.62x40... altair, data point: i cant get to 2400 w/my wilson 16" barreled 300blks shooting 110vmax over h110... i got close, chrono 2340 w/21gr H110 but this load was showing too much press - 20.6gr @ 2320 is my limit... Does your barrel uitilize polygonal rifling? Members of the 6.8 forum, with the right barrel and twist, are getting to 2700 fps with the 110 grain bullets with no signs of over pressure. I will say again the .300blk is an interesting concept since it has created so much buzz. It should have been the same for the .300 whisper but it just didn't have the backing. The only limiting factor is the case size and the amount of powder available. This will result in lower velocities but with realistic expectations, this will only affect the effective range of the platform when using some already excellent .308 bullet offerings. The advantage of 6.8, when taken with the disadvantage of proprietary magazines, is more case volume which allows higher velocity for a given bullet, and the better .270 terminal ballastics (In actual testing, the 6.5 had superior accurracy and the 7mm was the devastating terminal performer-6.8 was the compromise). There is a gentleman developing a 5.56 Wildcat in 6.8, but it will be limited by OAL. At least with the bigger diameter of the 7.62 bullet, you can load heavier offerings with a shorter bullet and allow more room for powder in the small dimensions of the 5.56 case. The .300blk isn't a magic bullet, but it definitely offers some advantages over 5.56. I will never say it is as good as the 6.8, but for some, the .300blk's advantages outweigh the loss of performance from the 6.8. |
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SOO, what exactly does a .45 have to do with this thread and my original post? I have a .45, that's not what I was asking about. The .45 has to do with 300blk fanboys pointing to the subsonic performance of 300blk as being a reason to pick it over 6.8. The point was that the terminal ballistics of the 300blk 220 grain offering are marginal at best and for short-barreled suppressed use you would be much better off with a bullet designed to expand at those sub 1000 fps velocitiies. The other advantages of the .300blk make for a compelling case but subsonic suppressed use isn't one of them. I'd like to see some calibrated ballistic gel tests on these "new" 230 grain 300blk designs before I would change my mind. Other than painting a picture I'm done... peace out. So you're suggesting that the correct course of action for anyone considering buying a $500.00 300 BLK upper is to instead go out and buy a UMP and an additional 6.8 upper because each of those manages to outshine the 300 in their particular niche? Wow what an argument. Thanks for the numbers though. I've killed a crap load of deer with a 762x39 build and I hate the fact that I have to use dedicated parts and mags. I'm in on this thing and intend on replacing my current hunting rig with a SBR blackout. I also love the fact that I can just throw my can on there and some factory subs and be silent in the yard. For me it has uses. After shooting many deer with the old 762x39 I have no concerns that the 300 blk will be adequate for me. |
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So you're suggesting that the correct course of action for anyone considering buying a $500.00 300 BLK upper is to instead go out and buy a UMP and an additional 6.8 upper because each of those manages to outshine the 300 in their particular niche? Nope. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that arguing the 300blk is superior from the basis of the 220 gr subsonic load alone is silly. If that is the only reason you are selecting it, there are more effective bullets for subsonic suppressed applications in lower cost platforms. I just used the UMP as an example. If you would have read the entire post, you would have seen that I think shooting the supersonic loads supressed from the .300blk is a better argument. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The .300 BLK's supersonic loads are comparable to the .30-30 Winchester, which I would rely on to humanely kill deer-sized game out to 150 yards. I What 300BLK do you have that will shoot a 150gr bullet at 2400fps like a 30-30 will? I believe you are thinking of a 125gr bullet at 2250 from the BLK. The BLK isn't as fast as a 7.62x39 with the same weight bullet. http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/tcyfix0cwdvdyigouhad_medium.jpg Good lord, man! I didn't say the .300 BLK was THE SAME as the .30-30. You're right, OK? The .300 BLK is a useless round. A Benjamin pellet gun pumped 67,043 times will approximate its ballistics and will be even quieter. The 7.62x39 Russian round is a goddamn howitzer compared to the .300 BLK. Why anyone other than an internet wannabe space cowboy would want one is a mystery. I'm trading in my .300 BLK suppressed SBR for a Marlin 336, a WASR, and one of those pellet guns. Feel better? |
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Man.. I don't know.. My 6.8 works great for coyotes which is what I want to use it for. 90 grain HP's at 2850 FPS. Heck I get 1150 FPS with Wichester rangers from my 5 inch 1911 .45 ACP. Works good, easy to carry around. Don't really see a need for a subsonic rifle. If I want subsonic I use a handgun, supersonic I use a rifle. Simple.
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Quoted: Man.. I don't know.. My 6.8 works great for coyotes which is what I want to use it for. 90 grain HP's at 2850 FPS. Heck I get 1150 FPS with Wichester rangers from my 5 inch 1911 .45 ACP. Works good, easy to carry around. Don't really see a need for a subsonic rifle. If I want subsonic I use a handgun, supersonic I use a rifle. Simple. I applaud your decision. Not the decision I made, but good for you. |
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Man.. I don't know.. My 6.8 works great for coyotes which is what I want to use it for. 90 grain HP's at 2850 FPS. Heck I get 1150 FPS with Wichester rangers from my 5 inch 1911 .45 ACP. Works good, easy to carry around. Don't really see a need for a subsonic rifle. If I want subsonic I use a handgun, supersonic I use a rifle. Simple. If you knew you were going to be in a gunfight in 1 minute and you could either choose a 1911 (or other suitable defensive handgun) in .45ACP or an H&K UMP (or other suitable defensive sub-gun) in .45ACP which would you choose? To me the answer is quite clearly the sub-gun. Barring a substantial difference in training (obviously if you've trained your whole life with a 1911 and never picked up a UMP you would pick the gun you are familiar and comfortable with) a person can shoot more accurately, more quickly, and farther with a shoulder fired weapon in the same caliber. So if your choices were the UMP in .45 ACP or an AR in 300 BLK using supersonics (again, barring any training differences) which would you choose? Here we are looking at two shoulder fired weapons so the main difference is caliber. Assuming both weapons are using good defensive ammo (not comparing ball in one to expanding in the other) the supersonic rifle round has greater wounding potential and in these two calibers there won't be a substantial difference in recoil or shot recovery time (I've shot AR's and UMP's). So to me the supersonic rifle round is obviously the way to go. So what if you have to choose between a 300BLK shooting good expanding subsonics and a 300BLK shooting good expanding supersonics? Again, supersonics have greater wounding potential so I'd definitely choose the supersonics. Subs have their place but when given the choice between the two knowing I'm walking into a gunfight it will always be supersonics for me. Unless there is some reason to place a huge value on stealth and I have a suppressor available, subsonics will never be my go to round for defensive use. So now the milliion dollar question for this thread: if the choices are a 300BLK shooting expanding supersonics or a 6.8SPC shooting expanding subsonics which would you pick? I'll take the 6.8 because of its superior terminal performance and range. That, of course, doesn't mean a 300BLK has no place. In fact, I own a 300BLK and I don't own a 6.8. One may choose to own a 300BLK over a 6.8 for a variety of reasons like recreation (shooting suppressed subs is fun), mission (if the tactical application would benefit subsonic suppressed use), or cost (300BLK uses more standard .223 parts and doesn't require proprietary brass). |
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How accurate is a 6.8 sub out of an 8" or 10" barrel? How reliable is a 6.8 sub out of a 16" barrel?
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How accurate is a 6.8 sub out of an 8" or 10" barrel? How reliable is a 6.8 sub out of a 16" barrel? [popcorn] |
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How accurate is a 6.8 sub out of an 8" or 10" barrel? How reliable is a 6.8 sub out of a 16" barrel? You probably should go back and read the last 4 pages of posts. It has been discussed to death. If you are using the .300blk for personal defense or hunting, the current subsonic offering is basically not worth any decibel reduction. The same thing applies to 6.8. Why would you shoot a bullet not designed for sub 1800 or 1600 fps out of an SBR and want to bet your life or hunt on it? I push an 85 grain barnes TSX out my 7.5 inch 6.8 at 2450 fps (picture on page 3). There is not a subsonic load out there that will match the terminal performance of this round including the .45 HST from a 6 inch barrel. |
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How accurate is a 6.8 sub out of an 8" or 10" barrel? How reliable is a 6.8 sub out of a 16" barrel? You probably should go back and read the last 4 pages of posts. It has been discussed to death. If you are using the .300blk for personal defense or hunting, the current subsonic offering is basically not worth any decibel reduction. It seems most appropriate that since you have never even fired a blackout that you should be the expert on the lethality of it because any one that has fired one would never make such a stupid statement like the one above. I have shot thousands of subsonic rounds through the blackout and every time I have been awed by the power that comes from such a quiet bullet. I have seen the devastation caused by a 220 grain smk passing through bones and tissue. I have seen hundreds of pictures of deer and hogs taken with subsonic bullets. I know this is counter intuitive to your 0% knowledge of how this rifle functions but I am sure since you read it on the internet and put it in a ballistics calculator that you should be the one everyone listens to get their knowledge on the blackout from. The same thing applies to 6.8. Why would you shoot a bullet not designed for sub 1800 or 1600 fps out of an SBR and want to bet your life or hunt on it?
The same thing doesn't apply when it comes to shooting subsonic 6.8 because you can't reliably shoot, cycle or stabilize heavy subsonics out of a 6.8. I push an 85 grain barnes TSX out my 7.5 inch 6.8 at 2450 fps (picture on page 3).
Good for you I push a 750 grain at 2800fps out of my 30 inch 50BMG or better yet I push 168 grain 7.62 round out of my 308 at 2600fps both of which kill your puny 6.8 bullet in "terminal performance". There is not a subsonic load out there that will match the terminal performance of this round including the .45 HST from a 6 inch barrel.
You still have no idea of what your talking about. You truly are the local mall ninja as there are multiple rifles out there that will beat the "terminal performance" of your 85 gr 6.8 shot at 2450fps. Some being the .510 whisper/50 thumper http://www.bwefirearms.com/50.html, The VKS bullpup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VKS_sniper_rifle, 338 thumper/whisper http://www.bwefirearms.com/338.html and one of the best know is the 458 SOCOM with its 600 gr bullet traveling at 1050fps give around 1400lb of energy at 50 yards compared with your 85 grain 6.8 with only 1024lb energy at 50 yards. |
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How accurate is a 6.8 sub out of an 8" or 10" barrel? How reliable is a 6.8 sub out of a 16" barrel? You probably should go back and read the last 4 pages of posts. It has been discussed to death. If you are using the .300blk for personal defense or hunting, the current subsonic offering is basically not worth any decibel reduction. It seems most appropriate that since you have never even fired a blackout that you should be the expert on the lethality of it because any one that has fired one would never make such a stupid statement like the one above. I have shot thousands of subsonic rounds through the blackout and every time I have been awed by the power that comes from such a quiet bullet. I have seen the devastation caused by a 220 grain smk passing through bones and tissue. I have seen hundreds of pictures of deer and hogs taken with subsonic bullets. I know this is counter intuitive to your 0% knowledge of how this rifle functions but I am sure since you read it on the internet and put it in a ballistics calculator that you should be the one everyone listens to get their knowledge on the blackout from. While I haven't agreed with everything Swat-Dude has posted, I'm with him here. It has been conclusively proven that supersonic bullets have better terminal performance than subsonics that expand, much less subsonics that just yaw. Just because some animals have been killed by them does not make them a good choice. Don't take my word for it, or Swat_Dude's word for it, do some research on wound ballistics here and other places and listen to the experts in the field. And yes, I have a 300BLK. The same thing applies to 6.8. Why would you shoot a bullet not designed for sub 1800 or 1600 fps out of an SBR and want to bet your life or hunt on it?
The same thing doesn't apply when it comes to shooting subsonic 6.8 because you can't reliably shoot, cycle or stabilize heavy subsonics out of a 6.8. Actually the same thing does apply. There are additional issues with the 6.8 with regard to bullet weight and reliable cycling but you still can't get past the issue of a slow moving bullet having less wounding potential. I push an 85 grain barnes TSX out my 7.5 inch 6.8 at 2450 fps (picture on page 3).
Good for you I push a 750 grain at 2800fps out of my 30 inch 50BMG or better yet I push 168 grain 7.62 round out of my 308 at 2600fps both of which kill your puny 6.8 bullet in "terminal performance". I think it is pretty obvious that this discussion is about calibers available in the AR platform, or at least calibers that can be effectively carried and used in a similar platform. Talking about a 750gr bullet in a 50BMG (I have one of those too BTW) is absurd in the context of this dicussion. Talking about a .308 is better but still outside the scope of this discussion as this is about the 300BLK vs the 6.8 and the .308 platforms are bigger, heavier, more expensive, and ammo weight can be an issue. There is not a subsonic load out there that will match the terminal performance of this round including the .45 HST from a 6 inch barrel.
You still have no idea of what your talking about. You truly are the local mall ninja as there are multiple rifles out there that will beat the "terminal performance" of your 85 gr 6.8 shot at 2450fps. Some being the .510 whisper/50 thumper http://www.bwefirearms.com/50.html, The VKS bullpup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VKS_sniper_rifle, 338 thumper/whisper http://www.bwefirearms.com/338.html and one of the best know is the 458 SOCOM with its 600 gr bullet traveling at 1050fps give around 1400lb of energy at 50 yards compared with your 85 grain 6.8 with only 1024lb energy at 50 yards. Enter the inevitable name calling that outs you as somebody that is speaking from emotion, not knowledge, followed by your assertion that a 750gr non-expanding bullet is somehow a great terminal performer. Despite the fact that it is, again, outside of the scope of this discussion I can honestly say I would trust a quality expanding bullet like the TSX out of either the 300BLK or 6.8 SPC if my life depended on it over a non-expanding subsonic bullet even that size. You claim these rounds have better terminal performance than an 85gr TSX in the 6.8 but what do you base that on exactly? The 85gr TSX has been tested both in the field (largely anecdotal) and in scietific gel testing. To my knowledge the .510 Whisper has never been scientifically tested. If it has, please put that information forward. Since I haven't seen it I could be wrong, but until I have seen it I'll bet on the proven design every time. |
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How reliable is a 6.8 sub out of a 16" barrel? My 6.8 16" upper and 18" uppers were the most reliable uppers I've owned. Reliablity and the 6.8 has never been an issue. |
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