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Posted: 8/30/2010 12:24:59 PM EDT
Asides from the cool factor of it being a military weapon or to round out a collection, is there any reason to buy a SR-25 now? I mean, now you have the LMT MWS that is half the price and the LaRue OBR that is only a few hundred more than that and both rifles will do what the SR-25 does. They both from very reputable companies, one of which has a British military contract and the other legendary customer service Not to mention the SR-25 doesn't have the best reputation for reliability in the US military either (partly speaking from experience). I guess that is arguable though.

Anyway, why buy a SR-25 over a MWS or OBR now? Discuss
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 12:49:06 PM EDT
LOL - be aware that LMT and KAC have intimated they are in bed on the MWS.

I - have shot a lot of 308 platforms and can say that all of them seem a little more finicky than 556 guns.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 2:19:50 PM EDT
There is no way I could justify spending 5k on any rifle other than a .50, I went with the LMT and so far it suits me just fine.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 3:41:14 PM EDT
I guess I chose the SR25 to round out the collection and cool factor ..I did get to handle the LMT and OBR prior to my purchase and I agree that at half the cost, the LMT would have served me just as well as the KAC..What sold me was that the KAC felt a little lighter overall maybe due to the dimpled barrel or maybe as justification to myself that it was worth the extra cost. Either way, in my heart, I always wanted a KAC SR25 given the history behind that platform in regards to Eugene Stoner.. I have a MRP and since i knew I was going to be running a magnified optic on my .308, I didn't want to have to change out the BUIS' like I did with the MRP..My SR25 is a sub MOA rifle and I do not regret the purchase one bit..With all the offerings on the market today, one can get a .308 AR based rifle at different price points that will more than likely make anyone happy with their purchase..
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 6:27:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 7:42:01 PM EDT
I like the competition going on right now regarding the 7.62 AR platform. I see it improving and refining the platform further. I just bought a LMT MWS and the decision was made because of it's reputation for accuracy and the quick change barrel.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 9:08:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 030:
90% of the users on this board will be perfectly served by a rifle from any of the other vendors. 50% would be happy with a DPMS. What sets our rifle apart from the others is extreme use situations. The new EM carbine has been tested to 5000 rnds suppressed with no cleaning. The SR-25 has continually beat out all comparators in military trails. That is not by accident. If it wasn't for KAC NONE of the other manufactures would have anything. All of the other guns out there owe something to our rifle. We will continue to improve our platform and push the envelope of performance. We are the standard that all others strive to be. I am sorry the price is out of reach of most enthusiasts but when it comes down to a rifle you can "take to work" price is not the most important consideration . You can rave all you want about the other rifles ..... I will salute that .....but if you are here to talk negative about our gun you better have your facts straight and ready to put your money where your mouth is.


Link Posted: 8/30/2010 9:28:48 PM EDT
AR stands for Armalite. Super SASS all the way. Rugged, accurate, and wont cost my kids college money.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 10:04:15 PM EDT
030 comments are absolutely correct.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 10:21:35 PM EDT
A few years ago, I wanted a KAC SR25 so bad it kept me up at knight (sic ).

As a dealer, I sold and shot DPMS , Armalite, and Rock River 308's. All shot well, functioned properly and were accurate at 100yds.
I never bought any personally because I just did not feel they were durable enough for the long haul with a lot of regular shooting.
I have no experience with the LMT 308 and I have seen a few hiccups with the LWRC REPR firsthand.

Last year, I bought a Larue OSR which is a very nice piece and very accurate. I am a very proud OSR owner. I do not have it setup like I want yet and when I do , I know it will be a champ. At it's introductory price, I could not pass it up. But I still wanted a SR-25.

Fortunately I missed my opportunities in the past to buy an SR25 because the new version Knight SR-25EM carbine is what I really wanted.
It's the pinnacle of the Stoner AR system in .308. I really believe that it is the best .308 on the market. Everyone is impressed with the features and accuracy. Everyone is even more impressed ( or depressed) with the price. Yes, it's a lot but I can see where the money has been put into it.

There are a lot of design enhancements and labor $$ to make them. I love the KAC Ambi controls. The suppressor mount setup is what sold it for me. If the Leupold CQB SS ever makes it out to the civilian market, I'll then have my dream setup. I'm a very proud SR25 owner. This is one of about 5 guns that I will keep until I die. From my cold, dead hands......

Is the SR-25EM for everyone?
No way! Honesty, most people cannot afford it.
For occasional shooting and less frequent use, any of the others will work. I'm also about to check out and review the new Bushmaster ORC for my customers that can't afford the SR-25EM or don't want to spend that much.

But if you have the money and you want the best, I think the Knight carbine is it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2010 10:24:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rockhound808:
AR stands for Armalite. Super SASS all the way. Rugged, accurate, and wont cost my kids college money.

The present 'ArmaLite' is Eagle Arms - IIRC they bought the ArmaLite name from... Knights...
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 2:40:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2010 2:43:01 AM EDT by 030]
Link Posted: 8/31/2010 9:16:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 030:
We are the standard that all others strive to be.


I thought that about the Sig AMT. Too bad it cost too much.



Link Posted: 8/31/2010 9:33:28 AM EDT
I wonder if it was not for the military contracts...if the price of the SR25 would have come down some by now. My understanding...I could be very wrong....that once a price is set and military contract goes into play....companies can not sell it cheaper to civilians. Example––-if I sell red rider BB guns to the army for $100 each ...I can not sell them to civilians for less then $100. And I am not knocking on KAC or their weapons nor am I saying they do not deserve the price tag. I am just wondering.


And please do not point to LMT and the British. I have no idea how they do contracts so there are no known reasons to belive the Bristish have the same rules.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 5:02:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 030:
Not true. Mark Westrom purchased the Armalite name from Fairchild. Interestingly Eagle Arms was purchased from............LMT. Small world. KAC did however get ahold of many of the early prototype and production Armalite rifles.

I think the competition is a good thing as well. I will quote G. Stoner when he was shown the HK G36, by a proud German designer for the first time. " Whats not to like about your own children ".


Sup Trey?
Question Sir, Got a line on a new SR-25EM carbine. Will the MK11 Mod0 suppressor fit that gun?
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 6:37:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 030:
The new EM carbine has been tested to 5000 rnds suppressed with no cleaning.


did that include regular lubing or no lubing?
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 10:36:42 AM EDT
I have a LMT MWS but I still want the SR25. The LMT is a great rifle and it will do everything I will ever need but the KAC is a still a class above.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 10:44:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cigardad:
I have a LMT MWS but I still want the SR25. The LMT is a great rifle and it will do everything I will ever need but the KAC is a still a class above.


Can you go into detail why you feel that the KAC is a class above?
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 10:57:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rockhound808:
AR stands for Armalite. Super SASS all the way. Rugged, accurate, and wont cost my kids college money.

The current ArmaLite has nothing to do with the ArmaLite Division of the Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation. It's just Eagle Arms renamed. Kinda like Springfield Armory claiming they are the oldest name in American Firearms. Yes, they are the oldest name ... and that's it. The real Springfield Armory closed in 1968.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:31:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 11:37:54 AM EDT by vmpglenn]
Let me put this out there...

Having owned both an SR25 EMR and EMC (along with various AR10s, OBR, DPMS SASS, etc), I can say they're both excellent .308 AR-pattern rifles. KAC continues to pour resources into evolving their designs and they stand behind their products. The SR25 URX II is a highly refined piece of work, and is arguably the standard-bearer when it comes to .308 AR freefloat handguards.

I have since sold my KAC guns and now own and shoot an LMT 308MWS. Although the KAC guns were great, I just did not shoot them hard enough to justify all that money sitting in my gun safe. The EMR also suffered from having a 20" barrel that provided a mere 90fps boost over the 16" EMC –– not enough to make up for the length and weight penalty vs the 16" gun.

In addition, KAC makes it no secret that the EMC achieves its enviable reliability only when shooting high quality or match ammo. If you want to shoot DAG, Radway, Port, FN, or any other military surplus stuff, it may or may not run the EMC correctly. Frankly, I have found the LMT less picky in this regard.

I wish the LMT were lighter, but it is an excellent gun, and represents what I feel is the sweet spot in terms of balancing cost vs capability in the .308 AR world. It shares a large number of operating parts with the KAC guns and is built to a standard. A form of it is deployed right now with British forces as the L129A1. And under normal or even hard use (like in a carbine course), the LMT should work fine as long as you keep it lubed (just like any other AR). It's when you wander into extraordinary use –– like shooting 5,000 rounds suppressed without cleaning –– that the EMC shines, but I don't come remotely close to doing that type of thing, so I'll never get to benefit from the level of tuning KAC has turned loose on the EMC.

That's my story, FWIW.

ETA: One more thing: rebarreling the LMT will be a lead pipe cinch compared to what you'd have to go through for an EMC.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 3:31:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 3:37:29 PM EDT by 030]
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 3:58:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AZ-AR15:
Originally Posted By cigardad:
I have a LMT MWS but I still want the SR25. The LMT is a great rifle and it will do everything I will ever need but the KAC is a still a class above.


Can you go into detail why you feel that the KAC is a class above?


Simple, because it IS an SR25.





Bill
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 4:00:59 PM EDT

Dear 308 AR industry,


SMACK!


Sincerely,

KAC





KAC makes a great product, they know it and they're rightfully proud of it. this reminds me of another manufacturer that i know... the name escapes me at the moment.

030 (CRK3), well played and i don't even own one of your guns... yet. LMT products currently fill my safe but KAC is on my short list, i need to finish one of my MRP projects first.

Link Posted: 9/1/2010 6:13:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 6:14:42 PM EDT by jBoy723]
Originally Posted By 030:
As far as LMT goes I go back to my original statement.. What's not to like about your own children. I think LMT is a great company as I do about Larue. I have less or little experience with the Larue rifle. I would say about a rifle in any caliber that deals with a wider variety of ammo has a more forgiving gas port size and perhaps will have more recoil with certain ammo. Larue addressed this issue with an adjustable gas port.We tune our guns to run on certain fuel. I would like to know what kind of issues anyone has had with the EMC with what types of ammo using our mag.

EMC will not accept a Mk-11 can. We do have suppressors in stock that are made for this rifle and our over the barrel mount. There are also great options from SF and AAC out there. This gun was meant to be run suppressed.

The bottom line is we make rifles for the US warfighter. We do not go after the commercial market. Companies that cater to this market will have more success in this arena. Remember only a few years ago you could not even buy a new SR-25 and older guns that did not have the performance of the new guns were going for 3500$ to 6000$. I don't mean to sound cocky or arrogant I just feel strongly about what we do. The entire commercial market profit out there would not pay our power bill. Thanks to all of you that support us ... esp DocGKR ,your opinion means a lot. I just wish people would properly appreciate what we do and not try and knock us down. It is inevitably part of business and part of life. We give all we have to put the best possible tools in the hands of the men that need them most.


Trey,
I've asked about a mount for my 762SD since the EMC has a different FH thread pattern. I've also contacted KevinB and Mers from AACand I was told that there is not a mount available commercially at this point but, a few were made for testing. Unless you know something different, I've alread stated saving to get the EMC can since it's pretty much my only option at this point if I want to run my EMC suppressed..Can you shed some light on the options you stated?
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 7:28:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 7:28:54 PM EDT by djpaintles]
Years back Knight was the first manufacturer to come up with a rail system for AR-15's. Now there are dozens of manufacturers making a dizzying variety of rail systems for AR's.

Years back Knight came out with the SR-25, a usuable 308 AR variant that a lucky few could own. Now LMT, DPMS, Rock River, Armalite, Mega?, Remington and others have started procuding a decently wide variety of AR308's for the commercial market.

What I wonder is, What are they working on now that everyone will be copying in the years to come?.....................................................................DJ
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 6:30:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 030:
As far as LMT goes I go back to my original statement.. What's not to like about your own children. I think LMT is a great company as I do about Larue. I have less or little experience with the Larue rifle. I would say about a rifle in any caliber that deals with a wider variety of ammo has a more forgiving gas port size and perhaps will have more recoil with certain ammo. Larue addressed this issue with an adjustable gas port.We tune our guns to run on certain fuel. I would like to know what kind of issues anyone has had with the EMC with what types of ammo using our mag.

EMC will not accept a Mk-11 can. We do have suppressors in stock that are made for this rifle and our over the barrel mount. There are also great options from SF and AAC out there. This gun was meant to be run suppressed.

The bottom line is we make rifles for the US warfighter. We do not go after the commercial market. Companies that cater to this market will have more success in this arena. Remember only a few years ago you could not even buy a new SR-25 and older guns that did not have the performance of the new guns were going for 3500$ to 6000$. I don't mean to sound cocky or arrogant I just feel strongly about what we do. The entire commercial market profit out there would not pay our power bill. Thanks to all of you that support us ... esp DocGKR ,your opinion means a lot. I just wish people would properly appreciate what we do and not try and knock us down. It is inevitably part of business and part of life. We give all we have to put the best possible tools in the hands of the men that need them most.


Trey,
I don't think KAC goes un appreciated at all. I think there are those who dont fully understand you guys role in the war fighter community which is the companies #!1 priority. You guys make weapons that are rather elusive to civilians which brings down some undeserved criticism. As for the higher price? People flat out do not understand the cost of doing buisness period. They dont see the cost of the staff that specializes in LEO sales, the staff that does GSA and Military sales, machinest, clerical, ect ect. All that overhead cost has to rolled into the product. $5,000 for a SR-25 aint bad at all. I myself have aim at a higher level, the M110. Yeah, its the cost of a transferable HK MP5 BUT like all my HK's it will only go up in value. Keep up the great work!
OH and on a side note. One of the highlights of my life was this year @ SHOT in Vegas while attending the AAC VIP. Its not that often you get to stand in line at the head next to a living legend!! Your old man looked good pimp'n that western coat and boots!!
Link Posted: 9/2/2010 10:19:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AZ-AR15:
Asides from the cool factor of it being a military weapon or to round out a collection, is there any reason to buy a SR-25 now? I mean, now you have the LMT MWS that is half the price and the LaRue OBR that is only a few hundred more than that and both rifles will do what the SR-25 does. They both from very reputable companies, one of which has a British military contract and the other legendary customer service Not to mention the SR-25 doesn't have the best reputation for reliability in the US military either (partly speaking from experience). I guess that is arguable though.

Anyway, why buy a SR-25 over a MWS or OBR now? Discuss


No, I cant think of a single reason to own a SR25, MK11, or M110 other than the cool factor. I have been using various types of this system since the early 90's, when they were "few and far between" in the US military, from the early 24" "pre-rail" type, the current version, the K version, and the (X)M110 (now the X is gone and its just the M110) I have also had the opportunity to fire the HK 417, various DPMS civilian 308 platforms, the LT OBR since its inception and I was even "gifted" one of the first Rem. R25s to roll off the line, which I customized as a project. To date I have not had the chance to fire the LMT offering, so I cant speak for it.I am also a crane certified armorer . The HK417is pricey(like all of their products) and probably just not available to most people, and I'm not a fan of the piston in a precision rifle. The KAC products are over pricey too, and have their fair share of problems. Triggers on M110s are prone to failure, and the rifles just dont group as well as their competitors. In fact, my R25 went side by side with new M110s and they just couldnt keep up. This is a $1600 retail rifle that had less than $500 in mods done to it (not including the glass) and it out grouped and generally outperformed the M110s on numerous courses of fire. The LT OBRs that I have fired have done great, and I cant wait to fire mine. They are also in service in various venues, and doing fine. The LT OBR also features a Lothar barrel, a sturdy as hell free- float handguard, PRI charging handle, 20 MOA in the rail,and can be ordered with Magpul furniture, surefire brakes (to accomidate a surefire can) and of course LT's various high quality mounts for whatever optics you want to run, as options. So, other than the LMT which i have no experience with, I would definitely go with the OBR or any of the other choices before the KAC products.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 2:32:28 AM EDT
This thread needs more SR25 sexyness.




As for why, I like the lefty controls, its lighter than other .308s, and it has less felt recoil than any other .308 battle rifle I have shot.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 9:14:01 AM EDT
Mr. Knight;
Thank you for your contributions to the American Warfighters, I personally got to carry a rifle with some of your product on it in a sandbox and have a great appreciation for the time and effort you and your company put into our equipment.

For those that are commenting about prices, one thing I want you to understand about the way the US Military purchases equipment is by a detailed contract. Competing items must meet the standards and expectations set forth in the contract. The equipment is tested and those that don't meet the standard are removed from further consideration. The best example I can give of this is the Beretta M9, when all the testing was completed there were only 2 pistols designs left. The Beretta beat the Sig pistol in the cost per unit to become the M9. It is not fair to hear how expensive the M110 is without understanding that when the M110 gets to the unit, it is issued with everything, scope and rings, hardcase, dragbag, cleaning kit, bipod... The M24 (a heavily customized Remington 700) with all the accessories had a price tag of $5,000 years ago.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 9:34:43 AM EDT
I'm very glad ښاغلی Knight III is willing to give the LMT so much praise - it strikes me as the version that has acquiesced to the budgets of mere mortals without giving up much.
I can't wait to see reflections when the SuperTap and BattleComp SuperComp 7.62 come out.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:13:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 12:37:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

Originally Posted By rockhound808:
AR stands for Armalite. Super SASS all the way. Rugged, accurate, and wont cost my kids college money.

The current ArmaLite has nothing to do with the ArmaLite Division of the Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corporation. It's just Eagle Arms renamed. Kinda like Springfield Armory claiming they are the oldest name in American Firearms. Yes, they are the oldest name ... and that's it. The real Springfield Armory closed in 1968.


All companies change with time. Do you think that the Colt of today is the same as the Colt from the 1960s? Go to their factory and see how many employees and machines they have left from the 60s. Unless you are buying an old rifle, all that matters is what the name represents today. And today's Armalite is building some pretty good products, at very reasonable prices.

Now back to the Knights discussion.....
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