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Posted: 3/7/2006 5:47:58 PM EDT
Ok first post here. Been a lurker for a long time now and I have a question that the search feature has not helped me with.

I live in Anchorage Alaska and fish and hike in bear country. I am building a .458 pistol, later to be a SBR. The lower is done endine buffer and all. Marty is building the upper. A very short barreled upper. Thanks Marty.

The question is what rounds would be best or a close range bear brush gun? With the short barrel I think velocity will be an issue.

If anyone has some recomendations as well as possible load work ups for this it would be appreciated.

With this info I could procure the seat stems I need from CH too when i purchase my dies.

Thanks
Randy
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:07:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 7:12:06 PM EDT by Bearbait1]
I'm gonna catch hell for this but if I were in Big bear country I would probably opt for a hard cast lead bullet. I have run a hundred or so of the Cast Performance 300 grainers through my 458 20 incher with no ill effects. You could certainly work up a reliable load and carry more than shoot if you are concerned about leading. I have had zero leading and negligable fouling in the upper.

I say this bullet as you will likely get no expansion from any of the bullets designed for the 458 win mag, and any expansion that you might get from a 45-70 bullet might seriously hamper penetration at the lower velocity. I would suggest searching on line for recommendations for a 454 Casull load, as this is probably where you will be velocity wise. See what these folks say about bullets. A flat point quality constructed lead bullet will give you penetration from here to eternity, and the LBT nose will hit very hard.

At the very least, you need to chrono your barrel with various bullet weights, and check with the manufacturers of the bullets for the velocity window that the bullet has designed into it. Marty should have the numbers for the nine inch barrel, and if not, drop me an e-mail and I can send it to you. Not sure where you are going to be length wise, but the values for the 9 incher should help.

With a flat nose bullet you can seat with a stem that is flat faced, pretty easy to acquire. I have the MGI buffer in mine, and it is very nice. My understanding is that the Endine works well. I have done some rapid fire on steel targets with mine, and an Aimpoint, and I have busted a few targets that have held up to belted magnums. A quick 458 socom dump is a very serious amount of energy.

Craig

edited to add: With the pistol configuration, you might find that the ultra heavy bullets will seriously hamper fast follow-up shots, trying to hang onto that handful. The SBR would make the whole affair more managable for speed.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 7:54:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ramman_jr:
Ok first post here. Been a lurker for a long time now and I have a question that the search feature has not helped me with.

I live in Anchorage Alaska and fish and hike in bear country. I am building a .458 pistol, later to be a SBR. The lower is done endine buffer and all. Marty is building the upper. A very short barreled upper. Thanks Marty.

The question is what rounds would be best or a close range bear brush gun? With the short barrel I think velocity will be an issue.

If anyone has some recomendations as well as possible load work ups for this it would be appreciated.

With this info I could procure the seat stems I need from CH too when i purchase my dies.

Thanks
Randy




How short is your barrel?
I like the 405 remmington softpoints, but I am shooting it out of a 20" barrel
If you want to try some IM me your address and I can send you some
Also might consider running some solids
Chris
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:42:56 PM EDT
I dont kno what your financial situation is but unless your rich, dont think about taken a .454 to the range evryweekend for hours of shooting fun. Ive seen the bullets and they are huge, and expensive. I think it was $30 for 20 bullets. The guns that shoot them are awesome though, big ass revolvers. The bullet i saw was blunt tipped and looks like it has an enormous amount of stopping power, i mean ENORMOUS. I would imagine this would be a very good gun for shooting a mean bear in the face. I dont know though if it was me and a got into a situation with a bear i would want more than 6 rounds. AK47 OR AK47 PISTOL is what i would want. Go to the colbert report website and hell give you the 411 on bears.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:12:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SLAPhAPPY1:
I dont kno what your financial situation is but unless your rich, dont think about taken a .454 to the range evryweekend for hours of shooting fun. Ive seen the bullets and they are huge, and expensive. I think it was $30 for 20 bullets. The guns that shoot them are awesome though, big ass revolvers. The bullet i saw was blunt tipped and looks like it has an enormous amount of stopping power, i mean ENORMOUS. I would imagine this would be a very good gun for shooting a mean bear in the face. I dont know though if it was me and a got into a situation with a bear i would want more than 6 rounds. AK47 OR AK47 PISTOL is what i would want. Go to the colbert report website and hell give you the 411 on bears.



I would venture to say that an AK47 would really piss off a bear. Would it kill it, yes, eventually. Would it have time to tear you ass from elbows, probably.
Shooting a bear in the face is also a bad idea. They have very hard skulls that are hard to penetrate.
As for the 454, yes factory ammo isnt cheap. Some of the ammo will run $50+ per 20. Though for general practice a person can either shoot 45 Long Colt through it or can shoot reloads which can be done for under a quarter a round.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:36:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 12:37:41 AM EDT by Cold]

Originally Posted By SLAPhAPPY1:
I dont kno what your financial situation is but unless your rich, dont think about taken a .454 to the range evryweekend for hours of shooting fun. Ive seen the bullets and they are huge, and expensive. I think it was $30 for 20 bullets. The guns that shoot them are awesome though, big ass revolvers. The bullet i saw was blunt tipped and looks like it has an enormous amount of stopping power, i mean ENORMOUS. I would imagine this would be a very good gun for shooting a mean bear in the face. I dont know though if it was me and a got into a situation with a bear i would want more than 6 rounds. AK47 OR AK47 PISTOL is what i would want. Go to the colbert report website and hell give you the 411 on bears.



NO, is all Im going to say to the above post regarding an AK for bears.

Now, I am a big fan of Barnes X bullets, also, while it appears you reload, the CORBON Brass Round Nose Solids would break bones and leave any animal hit with it in a world of hurt, so to speak. Granted they are not goign to load it anymore, that might be an issue, however, they are currently working up a new load to replace it as we speak. Also, I agree with bear bait, cast bullets work wonders. I have talked to a few guys at the SCI show here in Dallas this past Jan, and several of them used cast loads to take a Buff. Now, thats not something I would want to try, but the 458 SOCOM has more then enough variety built into the design to work up a potent bear load. I would think the Brass round nose would allow for penetration without getting tied up/caught up in fur, as well as bone shattering capablity which, "bearing" shot placement is possible, would put any bear in a incapicated state. the 405 grain rem soft points are a great call. A nice guy on here loaded me up 50 0f them, but as of yet I have not been able to get them to the range or in the field, but the weather is nice...so its only a matter of time.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 12:20:59 PM EDT
Hey Cold, you do need to take those 405 thumpers out and give em a try. I will load up more when you need them.

I use the 405 gr for black bear in Maine. Took a nice old boar last year. One shot. Ran 10 yards and just dropped. Good penetation and the 405 soft nose does a lot of damage. Shot went through form side to side and did not recover the projectile. Keep in mind that the 458 duplicates the 45-70. With the AR you have a lot of fire power, so I would not hesitate of load up a mag and take this one into the brush.


The 458 is low velocity, so you will not get a lot expansion. That is why I do not spend the money on Barnes.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 3:46:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 3:49:34 PM EDT by Big-Bore]
I too am a big fan of the X bullet and have used the 300 gr. X on deer for many years out of my .45-70 15" Contender. However, the X bullet in .458 diameter needs 1600 fps to expand. Now, Barnes says 1500 but in my tests anything below 1600 and it is an iffy situation. Not good on dangerous game. With my .458 SOCOM and the 300 gr. X all I can coax out of it is 1755 fps so it drops to below 1600 fps at only 75 yards. Now, up close and personal, hell yes, the 300 gr. X will get the job done. I have shot through deer, face on, and had the bullet enter the lower neck only to exit their rear end taking out every damned thing along the way and making a hell of a mess through the gut. That was out of my .45-70 at 1890 fps and at a range of no more than 50 yards.
Would I trust it on bear, yes, big bear, dunno about that. For bear where my ass would be on the menu if it didn't work, even though lead and a gas operated system is not the best combo, a hard cast a LBT LFN hard cast GC of about 400 grains and 1600 fps would sure as hell get the job done. If you want to stick with jacketed bullets you could go with a 400 gr. RN or better yet, a FN. It will be going too slow to get expansion but it will get penetration. You are blowing a near half-inch hole so you do not need a lot of expansion and a FN with a large meplat will open up a very large wound channel even if it does not expand at all, which it won't.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 4:31:32 PM EDT
If Leading is a concern going through your semiauto system, and are still looking for good quality hard cast lead performance, you may want to take a look at the Oregon Trail TrueShot Line. My friend loads his 45-70 with some of their regular .458 bullets, and he loads them HOT, and after 500 rounds, there is absolutely zero, goose egg, nada in the way of leading. If it were for bears I'd take a look at the 405 TrueShot or their regular 500 gr. one, although I'm not sure how much capacity they'll eat up in the SOCOM.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:41:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 7:42:18 PM EDT by Cold]

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Now, Barnes says 1500 but in my tests anything below 1600 and it is an iffy situation. Not good on dangerous game. With my .458 SOCOM and the 300 gr. X all I can coax out of it is 1755 fps so it drops to below 1600 fps at only 75 yards. Now, up close and personal, hell yes, the 300 gr. X will get the job done.




Well, he was asking about a DG/Bear load for Alaska, so, my suggestion on the Barnes X would be implied that the bear was up close and personal, I dont expect anyone to use a self defense bear load beyond say 30 yards....

I agree, the X bullet needs alot of power behind it, I shoot it almost excelusively through my 300 WBY MAG. The thing is the one rifle I can count on to kill what ever I use it on, at least, so far. Now the 458 with an X bullet would be great I would THINK for short and close encounters when loaded HOT. What about a HAWK bullet? I havent used any, but I hear they do a good deal of damage and yaw well. Anyone use them?
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:57:23 PM EDT
what about the 500gr tungsten bullets?
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:04:46 PM EDT
Thanks for the input guys.

Velocity is an issue. The barrel legnth is not in stone yet but will be between 10.5" and 7.5".

The hard cast lead and flat nosed solids in the 400 range sound like the best bet.

I just wanted a package that could throw heavier bullets than one could from the 44/454s out there. Those guns are huge and the size difference of the firearm will be minimal.

As to the 30 yard range comment, hell at 30-50 yards I am still fishing along side them.
I would probably be under 20 yards using this weapon.

Im going the pistol option to get it up and running and will SBR to make it more controlable for multiple controled shots. that .458 round in a semi auto platform will make it the perfect brush gun.


Thanks again for all the input.
Randy

Link Posted: 3/8/2006 9:47:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 9:49:45 PM EDT by TaylorWSO]
I live in ER. IM me and we'll go shoot sometime. I have one that I take with me when I venture out. I got a 16" barrel. When you get down to 10" or so, I think you give up too much velocity for the 458. I would prefere a 12 ga vs a 458 pistol. But if you want to use it I think Kodiak bullets will do nicely. Go to boondocks in ER for the best prices. I'm also a fan of Barnes solids. I'm taking my 458 back to Hickenbrook sp? this year for bear.
If you want to try my 16" 458. IM me. I have some different bullets available

Go visit the hometown forum
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 10:08:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 10:29:32 PM EDT by THellURider]

Originally Posted By SLAPhAPPY1:
I dont kno what your financial situation is but unless your rich, dont think about taken a .454 to the range evryweekend for hours of shooting fun. Ive seen the bullets and they are huge, and expensive. I think it was $30 for 20 bullets. The guns that shoot them are awesome though, big ass revolvers. The bullet i saw was blunt tipped and looks like it has an enormous amount of stopping power, i mean ENORMOUS. I would imagine this would be a very good gun for shooting a mean bear in the face. I dont know though if it was me and a got into a situation with a bear i would want more than 6 rounds. AK47 OR AK47 PISTOL is what i would want. Go to the colbert report website and hell give you the 411 on bears.



Dude you were the one asking about hunting with an AR here, and now you're in here offering advice on dealing with dangerous game? WTF dude?! An AK47?!? Do you want to get someone killed? And I can't believe you directed someone to the Colbert Report for legit information. Christ. You have no place commenting here, go back to GD.

Just SBR a 12 gauge and load it with slugs; that's the best solution.

If you want to stay with the .458 get solids loaded HOT because I'd be concerned about the velocity out of a pistol length barrel on the .458.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 4:17:55 PM EDT
Velocity seems to be the big question.

I will just have to figure that out.

If 400 grainers are just too big to go fast I could allways go down to 300 grain size to pick up speed and still be as large as 44mag. and some 454 rounds.

Ive packed a shotgun before hiking and fishing. This thing I am putting together wiull be shorter. There are some short shoutguns out there Serbu makes one i think but its like three shots.

With ther AR I can put on a one point sling slide it up low on my back and wear an open fishing vest over it comfortably.

And also important is its just plain cool.

Hickenbrook for a bear sounds pretty serious. Seems you have lots of confidence in that rifle.

Thanks for all the input.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 7:27:05 PM EDT
I hear ya, but for something in that situation I wouldn't want anything auto for reliabilities sake. Have you looked at tricked out .45-70's? Like the Wild West Gun's Guide Gun or the Yobo Big Lewie?

If you're set on the .458, go for it. I'm sure it will serve you well as Marty makes an exemplary piece. But I thought I'd throw out this one last suggestion.

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