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Posted: 3/1/2006 4:24:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 9:01:57 AM EDT by Ingeniero1]
Today I picked up the new DPMS .308 M4 with Quad Rail that I ordered from R-Guns last Friday and they shipped to my local FFL dealer. It actually arrived here yesterday.

As the R-Guns website states, the price for the 16” barrel M4 with the quad rail was $1075, plus $10 for S&H. Add to that the $20 for the transfer, and the S&H plus transfer fee end up being about half of what the sales tax would have been anyway.

Now I need to add a removable rear iron sight, optical sight (haven’t decided yet; maybe Eotech?) and either a JP trigger or a Rock River Arms 2-stage match trigger.

The is my second DPMS, the other is a Panther LR .308 24” barrel. I can hardly wait to shoot it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:21:58 PM EDT
tube or AP4 upper?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:10:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/2/2006 4:11:25 AM EDT by Ingeniero1]

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
tube or AP4 upper?



Like this one, (picture from the R-Guns website), except that I mine doesn't have the rear sight yet:



Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:27:24 AM EDT
That's a great price. I've been hsitating due to Rguns reputation though....
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 6:43:36 AM EDT
That's WAAAAAAY below MSRP. Good score....

Simon
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:28:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 2:07:15 PM EDT by Ingeniero1]
FIRST RANGE REPORT - THE BREAK-IN

As had been requested, and as I agreed to do, here is the first report on the DPMS Panther .308 AP4.

DPMS 16” barrel version of their .308 Panther, with collapsible stock
The rifle (or carbine) came with two 20-rd steel magazines, nylon sling, cleaning kit, manual, and hard case.

The fit of the parts is good, although not quite as tight (upper to lower) as my two-year old DPMS Panther .308 with 24” barrel.

The collapsible stock was rather loose, and it would not lock in the full collapsed position. I removed the stock and added Mylar film to the tube over which it slides, and it now fits much better - no rattle.

I ordered the AP4 without a rear sight, so to break-it in I used the detachable carry handle from my Bushmaster M4. I have ordered an ARMS #40A BUIS, and also plan to get an EOTech 512..

For breaking-in, I used a box of Sellier & Bellot .308 147-gr I had on-hand. Because of a minor malfunction, as explained below, I conducted the break-in in two sessions; cleaning the bore between each shot for 10 rounds in the first session, and after every other shot for 10 rounds in the second session. Not quite as recommended, but close enough for me.

During the first break-in session the AP4 ejected the empties every time, but did not feed a fresh round from the magazine – not even once. Based on previous experience, I removed the buffer spring, and sure enough – it was bone dry. I did not have any light lithium grease with me, which is what I use for this, so I went home.

Things went much better after having lubricated (lightly greased) the buffer spring. Back at the range, the AP4 ejected every empty, and this time it did strip a fresh round from the magazine and chambered it. I can’t say how the accuracy was as I had the wrong rear sight, was shooting at 25 yards offhand for the first 10 rounds, and from a bag at 100 yards for the second 10 rounds.

I will return to the range next Sunday, with the ARMS BUIS and a Rock River Arms 2-stage trigger - both of which I received yesterday. I will shoot some groups to see what the AP4 is capable of with good ammo.

Alex
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:49:16 AM EDT
Alex - thank you. I too just received the same set up from R Guns yesterday.

The stock doesn't lock into the fully collapsed position because there isn't a hole on the underside of the tube for it.

Does yours have forward assist? If so, does your bolt have the teeth along the right side of the carrier associated with the FA? Mine doesn't, thus the FA is useless.

Haven't pulled it all apart yet but it looks like the firing pin is held in the carrier with a pin tensioned by a small screw (located on the right side) instead of a cotter key...... hmmm now there is something to loose and something that looks like it needs a special tool - won't know for sure until I pull it all apart and if it is I wonder if it can be replaced with something more field friendly.

Anyone shot any South African through these? For some reason DPMS sends a memo stating not to shoot handloads / Steel cased laquer coated / South African Surp through these. Of all the surp to call out... South African? I could understand Indian, but SA?

Haven't shot it yet.

Anyone have any chrono data for these? If not, I'll post some when I get around to shooting it.

The single stage trigger that comes with it is very heavy but breaks totally clean.

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 4:42:42 PM EDT
pretty retarded to have a forward assist with no bc serrations. the firing pin pin is not like a screw, it punches out just like all the others. check and make sure the mags feed before in the rifle, some have had to modify the front edge.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:01:20 PM EDT
If I'm not mistaken, there is a shoulder on the BC that the FA presses against. I'll have to check it next time I go to the range to see if it actually works.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:03:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 4:29:56 PM EDT by Ingeniero1]
(1) Stock Lock
The collapsible stock on mine doesn’t lock fully collapsed because the stock would need to close by 0.090" further for the locking pin to engage the corresponding counterbore. I thought about using a Ø5/16” end mill to elongate the counterbore, but I really don’t care if it doesn’t lock fully collapsed.

(2) Forward Assist
a) Mine does have the forward assist, but no matching serrations on the bolt, so it won’t do any good.
b) True, there is a shoulder against which the FA may push, but it appears that for the FA to be able to engage that shoulder, the bolt would have to be in the closed position.

(3) Firing Pin Lock
My firing pin is held with the traditional cotter key.
INCORRECT! It is held by a pin with a plain flat head and a split end. It just pushes out easily, though. (Sorry about that - Alex)

Range Report #2
Very limited time this outing.
I had already fired 20 shots, so I was ready to shoot five, clean, shoot five more, clean, etc. I used the ARMS #40A2 Flip-Up BUIS and started at 25 yards and then moved up to 100 yards. At 100 yards I shot at a splatter-type Ø5” bull.

To make a long story short, after I had the sights adjusted (elevation via the front sight), the last three shots I fired went into a Ø1” group. That was using Federal Match ammo.

Next, I tried a full, 20-rd magazine, BUT, the AP4 refused to strip a round if I had 20, 19, 18, 17, or any over 10 rounds in the magazine. Up to this point, I had only loaded up to 10 rounds, and had noticed that the first would strip only if I pulled the charge handle back and let it fly, and not by just pressing the bolt release. If I loaded 11 or more, it would simply not strip the rounds; the bolt would push the cartridge about ¼” or so and stop. Not easy to get it out either.

Anyway, I ran out of time, so I couldn’t play with it anymore.

I won’t be able to shoot the rifle again for several weeks as I have other range activities, namely IDPA and HP Service Rifle matches coming up. When I return, I will try some of my reloads, the Aussie surplus, and hopefully, an EOTech 512 sight.

Alex
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:09:50 PM EDT
I just completed a transaction on one of these with the 24 inch barrel and cant wait to get it and head to the range, what is the reccommended break in procedure ? Why do they say no to handloads ? Im hoping not to experience too many problems with this rifle.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:51:03 PM EDT
I also picked up an AP4 last weekend and finally got to shoot it today. DPMS advises clean after each round for the first 50 and I made it to 47 before my cleaning brush broke. Shot a mix of Federal, Remington and about 100 rounds of SA surplus. I had a couple of FTFs on one mag if I had stuffed it to 16 rounds or above, but the other was flawless. Guess that I need to get the dremel out to polish the lips.

Mine came with the factory rear site and quad reail. The rear sight has plenty of adjustment range and seems sturdy. Front site is standard AR, and the quad rail looks cool and vents the barrel well. After ten rounds I noticed that the rear sight was loosening from recoil, guess that a little loctite will be needed. About that time I decided to switch over to my old Leopold 3x9. I had dug some old off brand high-rise mounts from my junk box to get an idea of how I wanted to mount the scope. Six rounds later the mount was loose - one of the base bolts had popped.

Recoil wise it is much nicer than my HK, muzzle blast is not bad, and the trigger is decent. I think that this will make a nice keeper with a little break in and teething.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:17:14 AM EDT
"DPMS advises clean after each round for the first 50"

Interesting… under DPMS in the Industry section of this forum, the DPMS rep stated:

"To achieve the best results for accuracy you should clean the chamber and bore after every round for the first 25 rounds and then every 10 rounds up to 100 rounds. It usually takes about 200 rounds per barrel for optimum accuracy."

And somewhere else I read, also as recommended by DPMS, to "...clean after every round for the first 20, and then after every five for the next 30.", IIRC. I will look it up and post the source if I can find it.

I suspect that as long as we clean the bore 'frequently' for the first 'several' dozen rounds it should be OK? One thing is for sure, break-in bore cleaning is very 'boring'!

Alex
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:50:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ingeniero1:
(2) Forward Assist
a) Mine does have the forward assist, but no matching serrations on the bolt, so it won’t do any good.
b) True, there is a shoulder against which the FA may push, but it appears that for the FA to be able to engage that shoulder, the bolt would have to be in the closed position.

Alex

Well, I tried the FA by easing the bolt forward by hand until it stopped. FA seemed to push the bolt into lock.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:01:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 3:48:06 PM EDT
on the mag issue, round off the front inside edge of the mag. the sharp edge is catching on the case mouth. also if you round off the sharp edges on the feed lips they wont scratch your brass. load your mags and try to push the rounds out by hand. if the case nouth gets hung up, file the edge round. itll save you headaches at the range.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:32:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 4:09:03 AM EDT by Ingeniero1]
I'll try that for the magazine issue.

<< Also, please note that I corrected the way I had stated that the pin was held; it is not by the traditional cotter key, but by a flat headed pin with a split end. >>

<< BTW, I also noted that the FA does indeed engage the bolt properly via a 'hinged pusher' . Thanks DPMS. >>

Alex
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:23:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:50:21 AM EDT by CK]

Originally Posted By Ingeniero1:
Today I picked up the new DPMS .308 M4 with Quad Rail that I ordered from R-Guns last Friday and they shipped to my local FFL dealer. It actually arrived here yesterday.

As the R-Guns website states, the price for the 16” barrel M4 with the quad rail was $1075, plus $10 for S&H. Add to that the $20 for the transfer, and the S&H plus transfer fee end up being about half of what the sales tax would have been anyway.

Now I need to add a removable rear iron sight, optical sight (haven’t decided yet; maybe Eotech?) and either a JP trigger or a Rock River Arms 2-stage match trigger.

The is my second DPMS, the other is a Panther LR .308 24” barrel. I can hardly wait to shoot it.

Alex




Yep! Here's my new LR-308 AP4 - I'm still in the break in stages as I've only put 75 rounds through it - Seems to like the Remington 150 gr. ball.

Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CK:

Originally Posted By Ingeniero1:
Today I picked up the new DPMS .308 M4 with Quad Rail that I ordered from R-Guns last Friday and they shipped to my local FFL dealer. It actually arrived here yesterday.

As the R-Guns website states, the price for the 16” barrel M4 with the quad rail was $1075, plus $10 for S&H. Add to that the $20 for the transfer, and the S&H plus transfer fee end up being about half of what the sales tax would have been anyway.

Now I need to add a removable rear iron sight, optical sight (haven’t decided yet; maybe Eotech?) and either a JP trigger or a Rock River Arms 2-stage match trigger.

The is my second DPMS, the other is a Panther LR .308 24” barrel. I can hardly wait to shoot it.

Alex




Yep! Here's my new LR-308 AP4 - I'm still in the break in stages as I've only put 75 rounds through it - Seems to like the Remington 150 gr. ball.

www.hunt101.com/img/388792.JPG



What scope rail is that???
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 10:10:16 PM EDT
whydo they recomend not shooting the south african surplus?
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:28:23 AM EDT
Because it's junk! $1250.00 for a rifle and everyone wants to use the cheapest most crappy out of spec. ammo they can find. I don't understand thishinking.gif
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:32:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By helogene:

Originally Posted By CK:

Originally Posted By Ingeniero1:
Today I picked up the new DPMS .308 M4 with Quad Rail that I ordered from R-Guns last Friday and they shipped to my local FFL dealer. It actually arrived here yesterday.

As the R-Guns website states, the price for the 16” barrel M4 with the quad rail was $1075, plus $10 for S&H. Add to that the $20 for the transfer, and the S&H plus transfer fee end up being about half of what the sales tax would have been anyway.

Now I need to add a removable rear iron sight, optical sight (haven’t decided yet; maybe Eotech?) and either a JP trigger or a Rock River Arms 2-stage match trigger.

The is my second DPMS, the other is a Panther LR .308 24” barrel. I can hardly wait to shoot it.

Alex




Yep! Here's my new LR-308 AP4 - I'm still in the break in stages as I've only put 75 rounds through it - Seems to like the Remington 150 gr. ball.

www.hunt101.com/img/388792.JPG</a>



What scope rail is that???



That's an A.R.M.S. # 38 SWAN Ex scope rail/sleeve with integrated flip-up rear sight that also fits the AR-10. Fits and functions pretty slick.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:54:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 7:58:34 AM EDT by Face_N_The_Crowd]

Originally Posted By GUNFRK223:
Because it's junk! $1250.00 for a rifle and everyone wants to use the cheapest most crappy out of spec. ammo they can find. I don't understand this



Since this is spoken as fact -

Out of spec - why dont you give us SAAMI specs, specs from SA, specs from the chamber of YOUR DPMS - then compare and contrast.


I have a GAP upper on another AR10 carbine - I have put @ 2k of Austrian through it and as recently as last week it shot a 5 shot group in the mid 0.4's with Fed 175's at 100 (it hates my bolt load).

I have nearly 2k of SA in bound..... somehow, I am just willing to bet the SA and DPMS will make friends.

For the record - surp ammo that feeds / that is safe - is just fine for your gun. You may need to clean it more, it may leave more copper - but it still goes bang, bullets still fly gernerally where they are supposed to (accuracy beyond 300 may not be very impressive) and the world will keep turning.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 7:32:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:

Originally Posted By GUNFRK223:
Because it's junk! $1250.00 for a rifle and everyone wants to use the cheapest most crappy out of spec. ammo they can find. I don't understand this



Since this is spoken as fact -

Out of spec - why dont you give us SAAMI specs, specs from SA, specs from the chamber of YOUR DPMS - then compare and contrast.


I have a GAP upper on another AR10 carbine - I have put @ 2k of Austrian through it and as recently as last week it shot a 5 shot group in the mid 0.4's with Fed 175's at 100 (it hates my bolt load).

I have nearly 2k of SA in bound..... somehow, I am just willing to bet the SA and DPMS will make friends.

For the record - surp ammo that feeds / that is safe - is just fine for your gun. You may need to clean it more, it may leave more copper - but it still goes bang, bullets still fly gernerally where they are supposed to (accuracy beyond 300 may not be very impressive) and the world will keep turning.



Amen! Too many snobs out there that think that feeding quality Milsurp to their precious .308 AR is an unpardonable offense. My DPMS AP4 .308 has been shooting mostly Malaysian and Argentine surplus just fine.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:28:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hartzpad:
Too many snobs out there that think that feeding quality Milsurp to their precious .308 AR is an unpardonable offense.



There are some .308 AR's I wouldn't use milsurp in:

LR-308 with the SS barrel.
AR-10(T)'s
GAP AR-10's with the Obermeyer or Schneider barrels.

etc....

That's why I love chrome lined bore and chambers so much. I don't sweat milsurp at all.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 5:32:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2006 5:36:25 AM EDT by Face_N_The_Crowd]
Shivan - see my post above, I do have a GAP with a Schneider - doesn't hurt it.

I swapped out the trigger on my DPMS M4 (RRA) the pins are too smal and walk under firering (although I did not mic the RRA pins they are the same size as the stock pins that come with SS trigger).

I cleaned up and lubed the weapon. Mounted a Loopy Mrk 4 with a LaRue. It needed a mere 3.75 MOA Up and 3.75 MOA Left from mechanical zero to zero at 100.

Same issues as others -- initially it would not feed with more than 5 in a mag. By the end of the session it was able to feed with a mag with a starting amount of 16. I am confident this will smooth out. Worst case the inside of the mag body, follower, front tabs may need some polishiing.

I did not have a chrono with me.

I shot a 20 rounds of Austrian, 4 rounds of Fed GM 175s, 60 rounds of South African. I had 8 rounds - 3 Austrian / 5 SA that failed to feed when the mags were intially loaded to 20. It caused more than just a little 'run out' so they were set aside and not shot. (From this point on I loaded less than 20 per mag). So all and all about 75 rounds were fired.

Grouping - SA is not as hot a Austrian - FYI. Also, SA groups about as well as Austrian. Both SA and Austrian were in the 2.5 MOA range and this opened up a bit at 300 to more like 4 MOA - all things considered, not bad and certainly not usual to any one that has ever chroned surp. The 4 rounds of Fed GM at 100 were slightly better than 1 MOA
(guesstimate - no mic with me). I would like to shoot some at 300 and 600 to see what it is like.

The end of the session - I loaded 16 rounds of SA into a mag, on the sound of the buzzer made "A zone shots" to the eye box on two targets 3 yrds apart at 100 and then hit an 8" steel plate at 200. Very easy to do in under 4 seconds. Strangely, the SA shot the tightest groups on the day (again no mic) more like 3/4 MOA, even though I was wigglin' while I was hustlin' against the clock. I must have been wigglin correctly (luck). The barrel was way too hot to touch after this. The HGs were fine.

All in all, I think this will work out to be a nice blaster. I doubt - although long term will reveal, that it will ever be a tac driver. Although I do wonder about a 18" Pac Nor..........

A great value if you can get your hands on one.

Good luck
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:44:01 PM EDT
I don't think anyone has mentioned that SA .308 has a sealant that gums up the chambers of G-3 type rifles. These can shoot about two hundred rounds before a cleaning is mandatory. Possibly DPMS had this problem in mind when discouragine SA use.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:17:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Schulze:
I don't think anyone has mentioned that SA .308 has a sealant that gums up the chambers of G-3 type rifles. These can shoot about two hundred rounds before a cleaning is mandatory. Possibly DPMS had this problem in mind when discouragine SA use.



I shot 2 cases of South African .308 surplus through the G3 I used to have with no problem. I don't remember there being any type of sealant on it, are you thinking of a different round? Was the sealant on the primer, casing mouth or what? The South African .308 I had looked very similar to Portuguese and many of the other surplus .308 except that it came in different battlepacks.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:53:12 PM EDT
Hi hartzpad, I remember you from goonsnet years ago. Only SA from 1981 has the fouling issue:

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=9&t=197345
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