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Posted: 2/17/2006 2:27:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 5:36:56 PM EDT by olds442tyguy]
Which one of these .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO Stoner system rifles do you think is the highest quality.

ETA: My vote went to KAC, even though I'm interested in them all.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 3:16:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 3:17:13 PM EDT by SHIVAN]
Military SR-25's.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 2:33:55 PM EDT
I love my AR-10 but I had to vote for the SR-25. I did so because I think the Stoner uses a better barrel (Obermyer), two stage trigger and I like the rail system. I still like to hear more about Armalite's SASS but I know it will still use an inferior two stage trigger.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 2:55:15 PM EDT
i agree with shivan, Milatary SR25's/MK11 are going to be the best availible

but as to the civy rifles, I think that the Armalites, DPMS and KAC are all equil

i have seen a four or five KMC items that have been out of spec and have had a KMC 2 stage shit the bed on me,
that being said, i still use and think the knights 2 stage is the best out there

i have heard the same things coming out of both armalite and dpms camps, so i do not think that any are clearly better than the next, it all comes down to value/price and customer service

i really dont know much about the bushy/RRA, but it feeds from the center opposed to the tradition AR way, ill would have no problem taking any of the 3 beside the RRA
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 2:56:33 PM EDT
voted for sr25 but love my lr308 for the $.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 4:54:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2006 4:55:17 PM EDT by SP10]
I also voted KAC. For the price they charge, they DAMNED well better be better.

Whats with a discontinued gun and a yet-to-be-released/proven gun outpacing the more established competition?

[15 ] Knight's Armament SR-25 [ 46.88% ]
[ 6 ] Armalite AR10 [ 18.75% ]
[ 4 ] DPMS LR308 [ 12.5% ]
[ 7 ] Bushmaster/Rock River [ 21.88% ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Votes :: 32

Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:34:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:
Whats with a discontinued gun and a yet-to-be-released/proven gun outpacing the more established competition?



Simply bears out that some people will vote favorite maker over any other criteria.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:45:44 PM EDT
I think you are correct
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 7:37:01 PM EDT
SR25 had damn well better be #1. Armalite should be very close #2
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 8:05:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:
I think you are correct



Then why did I vote SR-25?



Oh, that's right -- integrity.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 8:18:52 AM EDT
I voted for the KAC. I don't own a KAC. I have an Armalite. If the rest of the companies spent & charged the same money I would call it a draw for the first three with Bushmaster/RRA coming in Last. It is a discontinued and unproven design. From the hearing the arguements for & against this system, I think it uses a weaker Loading system than the DPMS, ArmaLite or KAC.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 3:09:32 PM EDT
One of my buddies has an SR-25. The bolt hold open wasn't properly heat treated and would distort and not function correctly after a few mags. He has the older match trigger( Jewel?) and the hammer doesn't have the correct shape in order to positively hit the firing pin. It hits on the bottom edge of firing pin due to the carrier being taller than an AR-15. This results in misfires fairly regularly. He's been trying to get KAC's improved FCG for at least the past 2 years and they just give him the run around. To me, customer support should be considered when thinking of the overall quality of a rifle. Uncle Sam gets preferential treatment, since his pockets are so deep.

AR-10's have a lot of 3rd party support, allowing the user to build a rifle just as accurate as an SR-25 for less money. I have and AR-10T, which is very nice. In hindsight, I wish I'd bought a Noveske upper and an Eagle lower and built it out.

I still love my AR-10T. The fit and finish on it is excellent. Upper to lower fit is really tight. The fully machined FCG is a work of art. Bolt an carrier are nicely machined. I like how the Bolt-stop on the BHO is really beefy. Accuracy is good. Just under an inch at 100yds with surplus IMI. 1.5" at 200yds with Hornady TAP 168gr. I'm betting it's capable of better accuracy, since I'm not used to my setup yet. Only malfunctions I’ve had were associated with non- Armalite mags.

DPMS manufacturing quality is pretty darn nice from what I’ve seen. I’ve fondled the Remington/DPMS SASS submission up close, and I really liked what I saw. The bolt carrier is very nicely machined and finished. Their upper with the forward assist built into the shell deflector is also really nicely machined. Lower is nice and fit tight. The steel 20rd mags looked high quality. If I had the cash, I’d like to own one of these. Who knows how it shoots. (I never hear people complaining about malfunctions in DPMS .308s)
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 4:48:19 AM EDT
DPMS lr .308.
Why?
Cause I own one, and it has never failed to function onthe range, or in the field. Yes I had to tweak the trigger, but this thing is dead nuts outta the box with my match loads.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 5:48:57 AM EDT
I personally think there is a huge flaw in this poll, in order for someone to make this decision they would have owned all rifles at some time. therefore it is purely speculation. ie, my rifle is better than yours.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:41:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bootstrap:
I personally think there is a huge flaw in this poll, in order for someone to make this decision they would have owned all rifles at some time. therefore it is purely speculation. ie, my rifle is better than yours.



The military had all three rifles at one time, since the RRA/Bushmaster weren't submitted. Only the KAC passed the testing criteria.

No rifle completed the firing tests 100%.

At the end of the day the KAC passed a more stringent testing evolution than most of us would subject our personal rifles to.

Therefore, the clear choice has got to be the KAC XM110 aka SR-25.

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:25:59 AM EDT
Shivan, I found the article on KAC XR110 wins contract for SASS, Where can i find the testing criteria that the army used to evaluate these canidates.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:27:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 8:10:16 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By bootstrap:
Shivan, I found the article on KAC XR110 wins contract for SASS, Where can i find the testing criteria that the army used to evaluate these canidates.



dewatters posted this link.

Though it only covers the DPMS {Remington Entry} and the KAC there it illuminates the GAO denial of Remington's challenge to the findings in the SASS trials.

The link above is from coldblue's thread about the SASS.

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:16:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 9:20:17 AM EDT by bootstrap]
Then we can all assume the KAC XM 110 system is the best... Answers .com " The MK11 mod 0 Has recieved worldwide recognition as one of the most accurate and durable semiautomatic rifle systems in existence". it also states civilian versions less sound suppressor is around 7500.00 Wow , I guess you get what you pay for. Any of you guys still think Armalite, DPMS, Bushmaster, are better quality? better do your homework.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:20:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bootstrap:
Any of you guys still think Armalite, DPMS, Bushmaster, are better quality? better do your homework.



Problem is, it is widely speculated that KAC does not release "military grade" SR-25's to the public.

How true that may, or may not be, is up for debate. It seems plausible, but not likely.

Then again, maybe even seconds from KAC are like firsts from the others.

Though I doubt it.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:40:20 AM EDT
Impact Guns, lists the MK 11 mod 0 , at 7999.00 1 to 2 year lead time. I doubt these are seconds.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:57:14 AM EDT
there seconds, otherwise known as weapons not accepted by the government, when these are not acceptable to the gov for what ever reason, they become availible to the civilian market and become safe queens,
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:05:51 AM EDT
I've had very good experiences with DPMS target rifles: 223 varminter, as well as 308 long range target. Both in 24" stainless steel barrels (1x8 for 223, 1x10 for 308).

Both deliver sub MOA 3 round groups at 100 yards when I do my part.

When not doing my part, they deliver 1 MOA 3 round groups at 100 yards.

Very easy target shooting!
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:14:26 AM EDT
Look at all the morons voting simply by what they own.

If you voted bushmaster/RRA you are delusional.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:15:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By charliez:
I've had very good experiences with DPMS target rifles: 223 varminter, as well as 308 long range target. Both in 24" stainless steel barrels (1x8 for 223, 1x10 for 308).

Both deliver sub MOA 3 round groups at 100 yards when I do my part.

When not doing my part, they deliver 1 MOA 3 round groups at 100 yards.

Very easy target shooting!



Did you vote DPMS?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 10:18:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 10:19:36 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By Appleguy:
DPMS lr .308.
Why?
Cause I own one, and it has never failed to function onthe range, or in the field. Yes I had to tweak the trigger, but this thing is dead nuts outta the box with my match loads.





So you have compared it to the Knights, Armalite, and Bushy/RRA designs, right? And have extensive experience with all of them?

The truth is.... to determine and vote on which system is of the highest quality.... 99% of us are not qualified to make that determination.

Most will vote based on what they happened to buy, and since they like it, they will say its the best. The rest of us will vote Knights or Armalite.... simply based on what we read here or elsewhere.... or just how long they have been making them. There will be nothing to gain from reading this thread, other than general perception.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:00:27 AM EDT
If we all had the same information on all the rifles, with no prior experience, would we unanimously pick one rifle? Thats why the poll is flawed. Givin the info at our disposal we can only speculate . No i didnt vote . I do find this interesting though.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:37:14 PM EDT
It's quite simple. Which do you feel has the best over all performance, accuracy, quality, reliability, or what ever else floats your boat. It's YOUR opinion, and YOUR choice to make.

Seriously, it isn't rocket science or advanced psychology, so there's no need to turn a simple vote into a sopa opera.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
...Which do you feel....



I think the "feel" is the problem. Lots of people like accurate analysis, not feelings.

"Feelings" are why the RRA/Bushmaster piece is getting the number of votes it is.

I FEEL the Armalite is the highest quality. Repeatable testing has proven the KAC is the highest quality.

Therefore I voted KAC.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:05:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
It's quite simple. Which do you feel has the best over all performance, accuracy, quality, reliability, or what ever else floats your boat. It's YOUR opinion, and YOUR choice to make.

Seriously, it isn't rocket science or advanced psychology, so there's no need to turn a simple vote into a sopa opera.



Ok.

Then I voted Armalite. Cause that is what I bought, and I "feel" if it gets the most votes, I will "feel" better about rationalizing my purchase!

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:06:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
...Which do you feel....



I think the "feel" is the problem. Lots of people like accurate analysis, not feelings.

"Feelings" are why the RRA/Bushmaster piece is getting the number of votes it is.

I FEEL the Armalite is the highest quality. Repeatable testing has proven the KAC is the highest quality.

Therefore I voted KAC.


Had you not heard the testing results of others, which would you say is the highest quality? Under those circumstances, would you really believe the AR10 is the highest quality?

I've heard many people say KAC is the lowest of the low in the quality department, and come to the conclusion that their opinion is factual.

My point being, if someone actually believes their opinion is 100% correct, their answers are relevant to this poll, reguardless of what others believe based upon observant opinions, or testing.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:06:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
"Feelings" are why the RRA/Bushmaster piece is getting the number of votes it is.



And "feelings" steer people into making purchase they regret later.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:08:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

So you have compared it to the Knights, Armalite, and Bushy/RRA designs, right? And have extensive experience with all of them?

The truth is.... to determine and vote on which system is of the highest quality.... 99% of us are not qualified to make that determination.

Most will vote based on what they happened to buy, and since they like it, they will say its the best. he


I've had limited exposure to all these systems, and listed my observations... hould Armalite has a huge civilian market, and can keep its machines running full time in order to fulfill the demands of that market. This translates into a less expensive unit cost.

Still, the AR-10 is probably not as high in quality of manufacture, but they have a lifetime warranty and decent customer service.

Get an AR-10 and have it accurised (match trigger, match bbl w/bolt and FF handguard), and I'm sure it will shoot alongside the SR-25. And for less $$.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:14:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
Had you not heard the testing results of others, which would you say is the highest quality? Under those circumstances, would you really believe the AR10 is the highest quality?

I've heard many people say KAC is the lowest of the low in the quality department, and come to the conclusion that their opinion is factual.

My point being, if someone actually believes their opinion is 100% correct, their answers are relevant to this poll, reguardless of what others believe based upon observant opinions, or testing.



What do the Navy SEAL's use? I would feel they are more qualified to assess such things. So absent the testing done, I'd probably still have voted KAC.

Again, I felt that the Armalite was the best -- else I would have found and purchased a KAC.

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:15:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Salmonaxe:
I've had limited exposure to all these systems, and listed my observations...

For $8k an SR-25 should be amazing. It should have high quality design, manufacturing, accuracy and SERVICE. $8k is a reflection of uncle’s price. KAC isn't focused on the civilian market. Maintaining a factory, and keeping it open in order to fulfill government orders drives up the unit cost. Cost doesn't directly translate into quality. Armalite has a huge civilian market, and can keep its machines running full time in order to fulfill the demands of that market. This translates into a less expensive unit cost.

Still, the AR-10 is probably not as high in quality of manufacture, but they have a lifetime warranty and decent customer service.

Get an AR-10 and have it accurised (match trigger, match bbl w/bolt and FF handguard), and I'm sure it will shoot alongside the SR-25. And for less $$.



Your post was quite good.... based on at least cursory examination of all, and ownership of at least one.

I have a modified AR10TLW, chopped to 20", tuned trigger, FF, etc... and am highly pleased with it.... but I cannot comment on the other ones, since this is all I have owned or shot.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:20:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 8:25:12 PM EDT by Ghostface]
I don't think that you have to own all three or even fire all three to come to a conclusion about this. It would better yes but not a must. I have never own or fired a Lorcin but I know it's an inferior pistol compared to a Sig or HK. I'm not saying the other rifles are crap but I have read enough here and other places to know which is a better option. I don't think anyone here would say an LW or Wilson barrel is better or equal to a Boots barrel!


Edited to add that I think Armalite is close behind the KAC and DPMS is too far behind the Armalite. All will serve anyone well. I just think the KAC uses a few better parts than the AR-10.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:21:31 AM EDT
O.K. guys Im very sure these are all good rifles. That being said, You want to know why BM is getting votes?. If you ever shot one , you would find they are well made , close tolerances, verygood fit ,feed any ammo, and accurate. Aside from the bolt issues, which has been corrected. Most owners are very pleased with them. Feel good vote for Bushy.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:22:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bootstrap:
O.K. guys Im very sure these are all good rifles. That being said, You want to know why BM is getting votes?. If you ever shot one , you would find they are well made , close tolerances, verygood fit ,feed any ammo, and accurate. Aside from the bolt issues, which has been corrected. Most owners are very pleased with them. Feel good vote for Bushy.



So you are saying, that you "feel" the bushy is better quality than all the others listed, based on that? Even though it is a highly unproven design, and had a critical issue right out of the gate.



Ok, I am gonna stop posting in this thread now. It is beyond sanity.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:31:29 AM EDT
Hey FALARK,even the space shuttle crashed and burned. Lighten up , Olds guy said it should be a feel good vote , so to speak. thats why i voted .
Link Posted: 2/27/2006 3:28:06 PM EDT
How about this , If I have 2500 dollars to spend which weapon is the better buy. And with what factory extras. I want to scope this weapon so probably a flattop , I want to carry this weapon in the field so no 24" bull barrels. Also the cost of the mags is also a concern. And don't worry about the optics thats another discussion.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 1:25:06 PM EDT
Greenbloooood, I know you, why are you even on this post ?? you want the springfield SOCOM... If you do decide to get a Stoner type 308 ( or the SOCOM) you'll have to hide it in the trunk of your pontiac. Take the wife on vacation, then it'll be alright. you decide.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:34:41 PM EDT
Sigarms 556
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 7:02:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By James_Gang:
Sigarms 556



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