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Posted: 12/3/2005 10:17:32 AM EDT
Wondering if anyone has a better muzzle brake for the 50AE or 50Beowulf?

The one with the holes all the way around cuts recoil OK, but doesn't do much for muzzle rise.

Is there a brake that will cut muzzle rise A LOT??

I want to try and run this upper on the M16 at least once, if I get the right brake I could do it much more.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 6:47:23 AM EDT
Where are Tony and Marty when I need them???

I thought this would be a good topic....

Hmph.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 2:41:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2005 2:44:12 PM EDT by TonyRumore]
Probably the best muzzle brake design is that monsterous affair on the end of the Armalike AR-50. The problem with the 50AE, Beowulf, and SOCOM, is that you have a sewer pipe bore, with low pressure, and not a lot of gas volume to work in the brake. Conversely, something like a 300 Remington Ultra Mag or a 220 Swift, is going to perform much better braked, then any of the above.

I really doubt that ANY brake that you put on a low pressure big bore round, with low gas volume is going to work very well, regardless of the "spin" that AA puts on their advertising (BS) ball.

Link Posted: 12/6/2005 3:22:11 PM EDT
Shivan,

When I had Marty put mine together a couple of years ago, we had the same conversation that Tony just posted. Not enough pressure to make them effective. So I opted against one. With that said, I am now running the MGI buffer in mine, and it DOES help recoil a lot, and muzzle rise somewhat. It might not get the M16 whre you want it, but I suspect that it would be closer than where you are now.

I also gotta suspect that the AA Brake probably does cut rise somewhat, just from a weight hanging on the end of the barrel perspective

Craig
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 4:17:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bearbait1:
...with that said, I am now running the MGI buffer in mine, and it DOES help recoil a lot, and muzzle rise somewhat. It might not get the M16 whre you want it, but I suspect that it would be closer than where you are now.

Craig



Craig:

It's got the standard Tromix 50AE muzzle porting/brake on it now. Even without it the 50AE recoil isn't that bad offhand from a tolerance perspective.

My main issue is keeping the muzzle from climbing doing a 10rd dump.

I was hoping to keep the muzzle nearly flat while dumping the mag.

Oh well, I'll just do bursts.

Ed
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 5:44:10 PM EDT
Ed,

I almost got very specific in my post but did not regarding rise and recoil. I was attempting to help with that part of the equation where you get bumped off target by the recoil forces into your shoulder (not to mention losing sight picture from getting slammed in the cheek). I guess this is technically a diiferent part of the equation than the actual force on muzzle from the bullet exiting, and those forces being compunded by the automatic rate of fire.

You might want to talk to Marty or Tom Llyons (MGI) about the buffer and full auto. I do think that it could help, somewhat. I have done enough rapid 458 dumps in semi to know the buffer helps. I do understand that there are at least two components to your recoil/rise issue, and I suspect that they may be related enough to be worth investigating. There have been more than a few reports of decreased muzzle rise by FA fire with the 5.56 using some type of rate reducing buffer. By the way, it must be rough having these full auto problems


Craig
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 4:58:06 AM EDT
Tony

The effect I cite for the internal shape of the Beowulf muzzle brake can be easily found in any degree or masters reference text on fluid flow. You need to examine the chapter that covers the supersonic flow of compresible gasses through nozzles. It is this very same effect that governs the shape of rocket thrusters. They do not add the conical section to the back to make them look like the comics. As an aside you will note that the design of a rocket motor nozzle actually tries to push the flow out of contact with the surface of the nozzle.

I rather like this section of arf.com as it seems fairly devoid of the cheap marketing we see in the other forums, lets try and keep it this way and not call BS just to sell stuff.

To address the origional inquiry, I would be interested to see how many people would like to see an alternative brake design that will also address muzzle rise, and or a dedicated flash hider


Bill Alexander
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:20:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 7:45:58 AM EDT by TonyRumore]
..............coming from the man that has been telling customers that I don't know what I'm doing.

Bill, I would love to stay and chat about Alexander Arms' rocket technology but I have a bunch of Beowulf barrels here to thread. ;-)

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:00:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Trestles:
To address the origional inquiry, I would be interested to see how many people would like to see an alternative brake design that will also address muzzle rise, and or a dedicated flash hider



I would be. However, there would be some requirements to my interest:

1) It must be a threaded device. Hi-Temp glue is unacceptable.
2) It must cut muzzle rise as a PRIMARY function, and it must work well.
3) It should not be so cost prohibitive as to be unreasonable.
4) The blowback to the shooter should not increase dramatically.



Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:52:56 AM EDT
Oh, c'mon Shivan....we all know those Beuwolf barrels are just way too thin to safely thread...........just ask Bill, he'll tell ya.

You're getting a glued on brake whether you like it or not! OK, maybe it's not really glue....just some super secret rocket adhesive. ;-)



Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:56:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TonyRumore:
...we all know those Beuwolf barrels are just way too thin to safely thread.....



Luckily I would be using a Tromix 50AE barrel.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:35:52 AM EDT
Beowulf barrels are indeed rather too thin at the muzzle to thread to a common dimension. 3/4-28 or 49/64-20 are acceptable and the root of the thread does not cut into the the barrel material that was worked during buttoning. 5/8-24 or smaller causes undue stress concentrations and should not be used, this way I do not have to sign a liability waiver for my barrel supplier.

The adhesive we use for the regular muzzle brake is Loctite grade 620

I am actually quite pleased to hear that you have a reasonable amount of work to do on Beowulf products. The idea of not offering models with anything and everything as an option was that this work could be the domain of the custom houses, dealers and gunsmiths. The customer gets what they want and they guys who can do this get enough financial support to stay in business.

Bill Alexander
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:31:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 3:39:15 PM EDT by TonyRumore]
As long as the bond line is kept thin, the Loctite will probably never let go. I had a customer send in a Beowulf to have the AA brake taken off, and a Tromix brake installed and the thing would not come off of there. Loctite 620 should break loose at 450+, but I had it well past there and it would not budge. Had to cut it off..............But customers still don't like the idea of having a glued on brake. It's more fun to play with, if you can screw it on and off 400 times while you sit on the couch drinking a beer.



Link Posted: 12/9/2005 2:28:26 AM EDT
i have the AA brake on my 'wulf and after installing there was some decrease in recoil, could not remove it for the life of me without damaging it so i have good faith in the "glue".

also installing the mgi rrb help keep muzzle rise to a minimal.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:53:49 PM EDT
I FIANLLY HAVE A WORKING COMPUTER AGAIN! Someone had mentioned my name ...

I'm going to throw my $0.02 in here, but with the caveat that my copy of Bird, Stewart and Lightfoor is at my other office (in case you wonder, I hold a Master's degree with Highest Honors and transport phenomena was one of my stronger subjects. My thesis involved particle settlement)

On the use of small threads. While I appreciate the concern from the barrel supplier (I had to sign that waiver Bill mentioned), I wonder why well-respected industry names like Vais, AWC and others do not seem to have the same reservation on thread v. bore. I speak toward the .45 caliber bores here, but AWC is all too happy to put 9/16x24 thread on a 45 ACP barrel for a muzzle mount can ..... Similarly, Colt will gladly thread a 9mm (.35 cal) barrel with 1/2 x 32 threads. Perhaps the barrel supplier is overly cautious?

On the use of "glue". Rather than argue the pros and cons, how about we work together to get BATFE to accept Rocksett as a permanent installation? Like Tony said, taking it off and sticking it on can be a great way to pass the time while waiting for paint to cure or pizza to arrive. But having the option would be nice.

On rocket engines. Looking at most FLASH HIDERS I have seen, I see the typical divergent section. Most all lack the convergent section, using a sharp entry angle. This does NOTHING to aide in the fuction of the nozzle, as the intent with nozzles (in the application I use them) is to limit the distance the vena contracta is located from the nozzle to limit power loss. Power loss is bad in my daily life as it wastes energy and costs money. For flash hiders, the theory I have seen postulated is that of rapid slowing and cooling of the muzzle gas to quench any combustion. From my perspective, I am not sure I agree and Ron Silvers photographi, IMHO, appears to support another theory. Cool thing is, I can actually build a flash hider to test my theory. I base this opinion on using VERY similar items in industrial settings on a daily basis.

Now, to brakes. First challenge for Shivan's request is that to reduce muzzle rise, it would mean an asymmetrical design. That presents a challenge in both machining and installlation but not insurmountable. As to the designs out there, I could try and discuss the workings, but why should I if Lutz Moeller does such an excellent job on his website (along with high speed shadow photography of brakes in action). Seems some guy named Newton put together some rules that just can't be broken .....

Well, not sure if I helped at all with my ramblings, but it feels good to be back to ARFCOM. Now if I could resurrect my EMail that would be nice.
Link Posted: 12/11/2005 12:19:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trestles:
Tony

The effect I cite for the internal shape of the Beowulf muzzle brake can be easily found in any degree or masters reference text on fluid flow. You need to examine the chapter that covers the supersonic flow of compresible gasses through nozzles. It is this very same effect that governs the shape of rocket thrusters. They do not add the conical section to the back to make them look like the comics. As an aside you will note that the design of a rocket motor nozzle actually tries to push the flow out of contact with the surface of the nozzle.

I rather like this section of arf.com as it seems fairly devoid of the cheap marketing we see in the other forums, lets try and keep it this way and not call BS just to sell stuff.

To address the origional inquiry, I would be interested to see how many people would like to see an alternative brake design that will also address muzzle rise, and or a dedicated flash hider


Bill Alexander



I am buying a 50beowulf upper tomorrow and would buy a Flash Hider if you made one for it. Send me an IM or email if you start to make them. Thanks...

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 4:55:40 AM EDT
Looking at an M4 style profile, with either a Vortec style flash hider an A2 or a compensator. Two ways to do it
i) 16" barrel with thread (3/4-28) mid gas set up but the total barrel length will drop out at 16"+about 2 1/2"
ii) 14" with carbine gas set up and a choice of the above but permanently attached to give finished barrel at 16 1/2"

Any thoughts.

Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:31:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 8:32:25 AM EDT by wulf50guy]

Originally Posted By Trestles:
Looking at an M4 style profile, with either a Vortec style flash hider an A2 or a compensator. Two ways to do it
i) 16" barrel with thread (3/4-28) mid gas set up but the total barrel length will drop out at 16"+about 2 1/2"
ii) 14" with carbine gas set up and a choice of the above but permanently attached to give finished barrel at 16 1/2"

Any thoughts.




That sounds interesting.
I kind of like the idea of the Threaded 16" but either would nice to see.
I like the vortec style flashider more than the A2.

The 14" with a perm attached vortec would fine with me as well.

For me it wouldn't matter as I probably wouldn't be switching out the flashiders if it came with what I liked.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 12:59:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wulf50guy:

Originally Posted By Trestles:
Looking at an M4 style profile, with either a Vortec style flash hider an A2 or a compensator. Two ways to do it
i) 16" barrel with thread (3/4-28) mid gas set up but the total barrel length will drop out at 16"+about 2 1/2"
ii) 14" with carbine gas set up and a choice of the above but permanently attached to give finished barrel at 16 1/2"

Any thoughts.




That sounds interesting.
I kind of like the idea of the Threaded 16" but either would nice to see.
I like the vortec style flashider more than the A2.

The 14" with a perm attached vortec would fine with me as well.

For me it wouldn't matter as I probably wouldn't be switching out the flashiders if it came with what I liked.





+1
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:44:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trestles:
Looking at an M4 style profile, with either a Vortec style flash hider an A2 or a compensator. Two ways to do it
i) 16" barrel with thread (3/4-28) mid gas set up but the total barrel length will drop out at 16"+about 2 1/2"
ii) 14" with carbine gas set up and a choice of the above but permanently attached to give finished barrel at 16 1/2"

Any thoughts.




+1 for A2 Hider on the 14.5"

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:30:12 AM EDT
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