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Posted: 3/1/2006 2:50:23 AM EDT
I have a CAV-15 Scout with a HBAR and a Bushmaster A-2 upper with a HBAR. I have been seening on here that people do not like the HBARs. Is there a reason why or is it cause of weight? I just wnat to know if they are liked or not.

I am also looking for a new lower. My dealer gets great deals on DPMS and no transfer fee but I want to know what is out there too.

Hound
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:49:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:13:21 AM EDT
I trainied on A2's before arent they HBAR too and what is the weight differenece I thought it was a few OZ's. I will have to look into this now I will see what the difference between a HBAR and non Hbar are.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:14:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ffhounddog:
I will have to look into this now I will see what the difference between a HBAR and non Hbar are.



1 pound.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:34:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:04:36 AM EDT
AR = Arkansas
AZ = Arizona
PLEASE GET THIS RIGHT



Thats funny!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:18:03 AM EDT
Regardless of what cowboy7242001 says that one pound up front differance doesn't really add up at to shit. I run Hbars and only Hbars. With rail systems on both with a light and Vert grip on one and with a bipod on the other, it really doesn't make a huge differance in the balance or the feel of the rifle. In all honesty if folks think that one pound is so bad, they need to go lift some weights(not directed at you personaly cowboy7242001).
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:40:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001:
How dare you insult the cowboy!

Neah, if I ran all HBARs I'd feel the same. My defensive weapon is a pencil barrel carbine, so that 20" HBAR has some wierd balance when i grab it. Just a perception based on what else you use/train with.



Glad you didn't take that as a slam or shit talking. I think you hit the nail on the head though as to why most people don't like them or think negativly about them. It's that they don't use them, or don't use them on a regular basis.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:37:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 7:04:52 PM EDT by Hokie]
I have a few AR's and I personally prefer an HBar on a stock 16" midlength....YMMV

I have an A1 stock and a removable carry handle. Just balances well and feels right when I'm shootin' with irons.

I also have a middy that's got some gadgets on it, so I swear by my GTS Recon barrel...but for a stock AR...it's HBar all the way. I simply love it and would never think of getting it turned down to save some weight. It's that weight that makes the gun comfortable to shoot. Like someone said earlier, it really is what you're used to.

That said....it's your own choice, but I won't stand by and let the HBar take all that abuse....it's a fine option for those who want some extra mass up front. We're also talking a pound or two here, not a 25lbs lead weight.

It ain't THAT heavy....
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 12:51:34 PM EDT
HBARs are a "fake" barrel designation, developed by the manufacturer's to cut down on machine time. There is no HBAR configuration in the military.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:51:48 PM EDT
Oh hell...here we goht opps..am I that transparent?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:20:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 4:21:23 PM EDT by RustedAce]

Originally Posted By photoman:
Regardless of what cowboy7242001 says that one pound up front differance doesn't really add up at to shit. I run Hbars and only Hbars. With rail systems on both with a light and Vert grip on one and with a bipod on the other, it really doesn't make a huge differance in the balance or the feel of the rifle. In all honesty if folks think that one pound is so bad, they need to go lift some weights(not directed at you personaly cowboy7242001).




I actually perfer HBAR, the extra weight makes the gun feel more comfy to me for some reason, my 14.5, 16, and 18 are all HBAR.

Personal preferance, if you like light go light. If you are a manly man go heavy.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:34:04 PM EDT
I prefer the HBAR too. My 16" HBAR almost feels too light in run and gun competition, and I have been thinking of changing to a 20" HBAR. More stable when the adrenaline is flowing and you are breathing hard, and it balances well.
By the way, my wife likes shooting my 16" HBAR, and she is 5'3" and 107lb. She doesn't complain about the weight.
HBARs should be slightly more accurate due to the stiffer barrel profile. More accuracy is always better, no matter what kind of shooting you are doing, says me.

Good luck. There is no wrong answer. Get one of each, in the traditional ARFCOM solution, and conduct your own test.

Long Range
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:56:48 PM EDT
I have always like my 16" HBAR
I like the extra stiffness for better accuracy and less barrel whip
the profile allows for longer periods of sustained rapid fire without melting my rail
The weight dampens the recoil and minimizes muzzle climb for quick follow up pairs/Hammers
and as far a balance goes. it sure does balance nicely when I support it at the front receiver take down pin... if anything it always feels a little tail heavy... so I have never bought into the front heavy theory ......

Those are the reasons I Purposely run an HBAR to meet my needs and requirements.

I don't like the standard profile as it's to light and POI starts to shit under sustained rapid fire and the muzzle climb is a little more then I like in Rapid pairs. I also tend to over swing on multiple tgts with light weight barrels.

Just my reasoning... decide your needs and pick a profile to fulfill that need....
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:49:30 PM EDT
Yeah looks like I need to get another upper owe well and do my test when I get back. I could get a Cav lower for 150 so I could make a complete rifle man theings get cheap when you start thinking about things. But yeah a govt profile might work better on an upper but have to tell the wife I am doing a scientific test
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 8:11:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
HBARs are a "fake" barrel designation, developed by the manufacturer's to cut down on machine time. There is no HBAR configuration in the military.



So what does that have to do with anything? Not everyone covets that "military" look or feel to thier gun. Some folks are smart enough to run what works best for them.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:44:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 9:44:51 AM EDT by Mdripley]
I have nothing but HBARs, and I love them. They balance well for me and perceived recoil is nil.
I used the Govt. Profile in service, the weight difference is noticeable. I personally like a heavier rifle.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 10:14:04 AM EDT
In a close to "stock" configuration, the HBAR is fine. I find that once you start adding crap to it, it gets overly muzzle heavy pretty quick.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:29:22 PM EDT
Is there something wrong with HBARs and who makes a good A2 lower

Some people think the HBAR profile is too lightweight. A full Bull Barrel is much more accurate and easier to carry in the field.

I hear Hesse makes a good A2 lower.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 2:00:44 PM EDT by DevL]
Telling someone to lift weights who does not like HBARs is like telling a Formula 1 driver he needs to add horespower to to improve his suspension to get better handling. It is not about the weight of the weapon but the balance of the rifle. I never knew a 400lb bench press was required to tote a HBAR.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:29:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Telling someone to lift weights who does not like HBARs is like telling a Formula 1 driver he needs to add horespower to to improve his suspension to get better handling. It is not about the weight of the weapon but the balance of the rifle. I never knew a 400lb bench press was required to tote a HBAR.



The lifting weights comment is usually a result of not having a valid reason to choose an HBAR over anything else. It's all about justifying their choice and rebuking anyone that questions that choice.

My take on a few of the reasons people choose HBAR's...

1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?
2. "It resists heat" - It also resists cooling.
3. "It has less recoil" - I wasn't aware that 5.56 had unmanageable recoil.
4. "It's better for multiple target engagement and shooting controlled pairs" - Sounds like a training issue.
5. "It's more accurate" - Do I need better than 3 rounds touching at 100 yds?
6. "POI won't shift when the barrel heats up" - COM is still COM.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:34:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Telling someone to lift weights who does not like HBARs is like telling a Formula 1 driver he needs to add horespower to to improve his suspension to get better handling. It is not about the weight of the weapon but the balance of the rifle. I never knew a 400lb bench press was required to tote a HBAR.



The lifting weights comment is usually a result of not having a valid reason to choose an HBAR over anything else. It's all about justifying their choice and rebuking anyone that questions that choice.

My take on a few of the reasons people choose HBAR's...

1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?
2. "It resists heat" - It also resists cooling.
3. "It has less recoil" - I wasn't aware that 5.56 had unmanageable recoil.
4. "It's better for multiple target engagement and shooting controlled pairs" - Sounds like a training issue.
5. "It's more accurate" - Do I need better than 3 rounds touching at 100 yds?
6. "POI won't shift when the barrel heats up" - COM is still COM.




Both profiles have their good points and their bad points. My 14.5 is aHBAR, and my 18 is a govt. profile. I like em both equally well.
If you only like pencil barrels, fine, but don't bash someone else who doesn't.

Nick
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:31:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Commando_Guy:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Telling someone to lift weights who does not like HBARs is like telling a Formula 1 driver he needs to add horespower to to improve his suspension to get better handling. It is not about the weight of the weapon but the balance of the rifle. I never knew a 400lb bench press was required to tote a HBAR.



The lifting weights comment is usually a result of not having a valid reason to choose an HBAR over anything else. It's all about justifying their choice and rebuking anyone that questions that choice.

My take on a few of the reasons people choose HBAR's...

1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?
2. "It resists heat" - It also resists cooling.
3. "It has less recoil" - I wasn't aware that 5.56 had unmanageable recoil.
4. "It's better for multiple target engagement and shooting controlled pairs" - Sounds like a training issue.
5. "It's more accurate" - Do I need better than 3 rounds touching at 100 yds?
6. "POI won't shift when the barrel heats up" - COM is still COM.




Both profiles have their good points and their bad points. My 14.5 is aHBAR, and my 18 is a govt. profile. I like em both equally well.
If you only like pencil barrels, fine, but don't bash someone else who doesn't.

Nick



I don't recall bashing anybody nor do I recall stating my preference in barrel profiles. I do recall stating my opinion, though.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:59:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 6:00:47 PM EDT by RustedAce]

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?

Becuase its short?




All the others are pretty reasonable, that one is not. Carbines are about length not weight.


Also, some people still like HBARs decked out. For some reason I really like heavy barreled guns, after tons and tons of shooting its what I decided I liked. I have a 12 KAC rail, front grip, a Sure fire and a PAQ4 on the front of mine.

Best advice, shoot both, decide.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:04:27 PM EDT
most of the complaints of the hbars is front heaviness, or not swinging as fast. personally i prefer stainless bulls, but i may try a stainless hbar. the dpms lowers are nice, and cheap. i like the teflon coat.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?

Becuase its short?




All the others are pretty reasonable, that one is not. Carbines are about length not weight.


Also, some people still like HBARs decked out. For some reason I really like heavy barreled guns, after tons and tons of shooting its what I decided I liked. I have a 12 KAC rail, front grip, a Sure fire and a PAQ4 on the front of mine.

Best advice, shoot both, decide.



Fair enough.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:50:52 AM EDT
I think the length of the barrel has more to do with things than the actual weight of the barrel (in case of AR-15/M16/CAR-15/M4 anyways).

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:11:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
HBARs are a "fake" barrel designation, developed by the manufacturer's to cut down on machine time. There is no HBAR configuration in the military.



So what does that have to do with anything? Not everyone covets that "military" look or feel to thier gun. Some folks are smart enough to run what works best for them.



What the hell is a colt socom barrel? Is that not "military"?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 2:34:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
My take on a few of the reasons people choose HBAR's...

1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?
2. "It resists heat" - It also resists cooling.
3. "It has less recoil" - I wasn't aware that 5.56 had unmanageable recoil.
4. "It's better for multiple target engagement and shooting controlled pairs" - Sounds like a training issue.
5. "It's more accurate" - Do I need better than 3 rounds touching at 100 yds?
6. "POI won't shift when the barrel heats up" - COM is still COM.



+1
May I also add that the people who tend to like HBar configs are not required, nor do they routinely carry their weapons for duty. That 1 lbs. does certainly matter! If you have 40 lbs. of gear, you cut weight by any means possible.
Just my $.02 but I also have a 16" M4 barrel so the weight I reduced was added right back by going to 16" over 14.5".
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:34:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
HBARs are a "fake" barrel designation, developed by the manufacturer's to cut down on machine time. There is no HBAR configuration in the military.



And who said the military had the best weapons. Murphy's Law in this area still rings true: Your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.

Its all up to personal choice. Having used the A2 and the M4 while in the military, I can say I would take my HBAR over them any day. The weight isn't an issue, especially since I carried an M249 for two years. You get used to it.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:41:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 5:46:05 PM EDT by RustedAce]

Originally Posted By RangerStew:

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
HBARs are a "fake" barrel designation, developed by the manufacturer's to cut down on machine time. There is no HBAR configuration in the military.



And who said the military had the best weapons. Murphy's Law in this area still rings true: Your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.

Its all up to personal choice. Having used the A2 and the M4 while in the military, I can say I would take my HBAR over them any day. The weight isn't an issue, especially since I carried an M249 for two years. You get used to it.



I have had M249, A2, M4s and A4s issued. I would perfer my 18in or 14.5 in HBAR over those. The only lightwieght barrel I have is on an 11.5

The feel of the HBAR is perfect for me, I like the extra weight. I really dont care about accuracy or heat etc. Just the feel of it over a thinner barrel.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:22:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clippen:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
HBARs are a "fake" barrel designation, developed by the manufacturer's to cut down on machine time. There is no HBAR configuration in the military.



So what does that have to do with anything? Not everyone covets that "military" look or feel to thier gun. Some folks are smart enough to run what works best for them.



What the hell is a colt socom barrel? Is that not "military"?



Sure it's "military", but it's also not an Hbar, it's more of a mid weight.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:25:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 2:26:14 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By dxdgenert:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
My take on a few of the reasons people choose HBAR's...

1. "I prefer the extra weight" - Why do you own a carbine?
2. "It resists heat" - It also resists cooling.
3. "It has less recoil" - I wasn't aware that 5.56 had unmanageable recoil.
4. "It's better for multiple target engagement and shooting controlled pairs" - Sounds like a training issue.
5. "It's more accurate" - Do I need better than 3 rounds touching at 100 yds?
6. "POI won't shift when the barrel heats up" - COM is still COM.



+1
May I also add that the people who tend to like HBar configs are not required, nor do they routinely carry their weapons for duty. That 1 lbs. does certainly matter! If you have 40 lbs. of gear, you cut weight by any means possible. It's not an issue for me when we do classes or no fun shoots and I have that shit on for 8-12 hours, it doesn't bug me when I hit the range for 4 hours or so in a day to run drills
Just my $.02 but I also have a 16" M4 barrel so the weight I reduced was added right back by going to 16" over 14.5". I don't think there is a whole lot of weight differance between a 16in M4 profile barrel and a 14.5in m4 profile barrel, yer only adding 1.5 inches of barrel length. It's not going to be a whole lot of weight increase.



Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:39:28 AM EDT
I have a DCM Service Rifle and a 16" midlength HBAR. My opinion is this- There are two types of guns, carrying guns and shooting guns (especially when you are talking about pistols). Shooting guns aren't any fun to carry and carrying guns aren't much fun to shoot.

I had thought about having the HBAR turned down to .750 or so under the handguards and fluted. The recoil compared to a 10+ pound 20" AR is more substantial. The DCM Service Rifle is like shooting a really loud Ruger 10/22 Target Model, but it S.U.C.K.S. to tote.

After owning it a while and shooting about 500-600 rounds through it I have decided I like the 16" HBAR. It balances perfectly in my opinion, is just heavy enough for recoil damping and is short and easy to carry. Lighter would be easier to tote but I think would be less pleasant to shoot. I don't hang anything off my rifles- shoot them as they come. If it was a 20" gun I would probably have the barrel turned down to a lighter profile.

I would advise anyone to get the 16" HBAR middy and try it a while, especially with an A1 stock. As someone said earlier it balances at the front pivot pin- just right. If you don't like it, ADCO will turn that barrel down for you for like $64.00! A bargain.

There isn't anything wrong with HBAR's in my book as long as they're on carbines. I don't think I would like an HBAR 20".

Can't add anything about lowers except I like RRA.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 11:01:49 AM EDT
My current patrol rifle is a Bushy 16" HBAR with a YHM 2 piece RAS and Surefire light. Yup, it gets a bit heavy at times but I dont mind it one bit.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:19:05 PM EDT
If you bitch about a HBAR being to heavy you need to go to the gym and lift some weights because you are a FUCKING PUSSY!!!
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 2:52:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
If you bitch about a HBAR being to heavy you need to go to the gym and lift some weights because you are a FUCKING PUSSY!!!



You really should have let everyone continue to wonder if you were a FUCKING IDIOT instead of confirming it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:38:00 PM EDT
Anyone bitching about a one pound weight increase should not be handling a firearm to begin with.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:41:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
Anyone bitching about a one pound weight increase should not be handling a firearm to begin with.



Confirmation complete.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 3:47:15 PM EDT
Did someone shit in your breakfast? I wish I could be a badass mall ninja like yourself.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:40:20 PM EDT
1 pound, who cares. I have 16" HBAR Colt and it has a 'Readi-Mag' attached to it. So talk about adding weight, the full 30 round mag is alot heavier then the difference between HBAR and non-HBAR. I did noitce the front end drop while holding grip 1 handed so I bought a 'Target Style Grip'. It applied pressure on the meaty part of the palm blade while holding it 1 handed. Then again, when your wearing about 50+ pounds of gear when jocked up, whats 1 extra pound...
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:12:12 PM EDT
HBAR,s ---thats all I own
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