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Posted: 1/13/2006 10:24:18 AM EDT
OK, so I picked a rifle...the Bushmaster M4A3...as a starting platform (Sportsman's Warehouse $820). It seems that the only question left is: Izzy or Izzy not?

Does anyone have M4's with BOTH an Izzy and a birdcage that they can post a comparison about?

I am more concerned with accuracy and which has a smaller flash signature than I am about their use as a muzzle brake.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:37:50 AM EDT
I have both and have used both on my 20" rifle. It currently sports an A2 birdcage for Service Rifle reasons. I see no difference between the two as far as accuracy is concerned. The Izzy does a better job at flash suppression than the A2. I'm so what indifferent as to appearance, although an A2 birdcage does have more of a "traditional" look.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:57:25 AM EDT
Izzy Brake or suppressor? You might want to make sure what you are looking at as there are both types. Yes there is a difference between the two.

Bushmaster Brakes and Supressors

Assuming that you are referring to the suppressor flavor Izzy vs a standard A2 birdcage, I have both and like XD can see no discernible difference in accuracy between them, but imho the Izzy suppressor does a moderately better job at flash suppression.

Hope this helps....

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:04:02 AM EDT
Oh, this is tagged!

I'm considering sending in my SEBR (when I get it) to have a Vortex installed. It comes from Bushmaster with the "Izzy" FH installed.

You guys think it's worth it? Or should I just use it and not worry about it? (that would reduce my anxiety, getting a new toy, not using it, and then shipping it off to ADCO)
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:12:08 AM EDT
Since I'm new to the whole AR thing, and wasn't sure what an Izzy was, I did a google.... and, well.... I gotta say, if this is the Izzy that comes with my 2005 SEBR, my wife is gonna be pissed!

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:10:46 PM EDT
Lots of great info, thanks!


Originally Posted By XD_Fan:
I have both and have used both on my 20" rifle.


I am particularly interested in 16-inch M4 models. I do like the fact that the birdcage does look more traditional, is more widely supported, and isn't welded to the barrel. h=85%

Originally Posted By Head_Space:
Izzy Brake or suppressor?


I've been lurking for a couple of weeks, and because of this great site, I *can* tell the difference between the two, and it is the flash suppressor, and not the brake. Thanks for pointing that out. Are yours on carbine-length barrels, or longer rifle barrels?

Based on MacMan's post, is there a better flash suppressor I should get instead, something that stands apart from the others?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:31:13 PM EDT
Jeeper,

I can tell you this: From my own experience (on a .308) and the 5.56mm FH comparisons I've seen, there is currently no better flash hider than the Vortex.

However,

If the "Izzy" flash hider is truly as good or better than an A2 FH, does it make sense for me to drop ~$75 on having a new FH permanently installed? I don't want to hijack your thread though. Think of this as a free bump where we can both learn about this "Izzy" thing.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:02:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
I can tell you this: From my own experience (on a .308) and the 5.56mm FH comparisons I've seen, there is currently no better flash hider than the Vortex.

If the "Izzy" flash hider is truly as good or better than an A2 FH, does it make sense for me to drop ~$75 on having a new FH permanently installed? I don't want to hijack your thread though. Think of this as a free bump where we can both learn about this "Izzy" thing. hr


No sweat! G6 Vortex, Phantom 28/5C1/5C2, A1/A2 Birdcage, Izzy, Midievil, Noveske KX3...my head is starting to hurt!

How, er..."changeable" are the factory flash suppressors? If I get either the Izzy or the Birdcage and I'm not happy with it, can either or both be changed for something else (especially since the Izzy is welded on), as long as the barrel ends up at a minimum of 16-inches? Or, if you get a welded Izzy, are you just stuck with it?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:29:37 PM EDT
Dunno how changeable they are! In fact I thought they were pinned...

Well, here's hoping someone happens along to answer our questions and shut us up.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:31:24 PM EDT
Changing a FS is very easy. Clamp the barrel into a vice with a set of vise blocks (I happen to have this set and like them a lot. There are others out there and cheaper ones.) or use a pair of wooden blocks tightly enough so the barrel will not rotate when you start cranking on the FS. You can use a set of upper action blocks too. I don't as I think it puts too much torque on the upper/barrel interface. Never use a lower action block for this unless you like breaking mag wells. Once the barrel is held securely use a wrench of the proper size or a multi-tool, place in on the flats at the back of the FS and turn it until its loose. Spin it off the rest of the way by hand. Clean the barrel threads and remove any crap from the barrel crown. To install reverse the process using either a NEW crush washer or peel washer and turn until timed properly. Timing refers to where the slots end up. If you have a closed bottom FS (side without any slots) you'll want that closed bottom on the bottom. Spin the FS on until hand tight. Turn far enough to be firmly snugged up or until just properly timed. DO NOT crank down on the FS until it quits turning. You can destort the barrel crown or put stress on it that will hurt your accuracy by doing this. Firmly snugged FS device do not shoot loose. You don't have to use loctite but if it makes you sleep better do so. Do not use anything stronger than the blue stuff.

Permanently pinned and welded FS's are a whole different kettle of fish. This involves grinding, silver soldering and generally a lot of swearing. Except in the case of short barrels with attached FS to bring them out to 16" the FS will not be pinned and welded on a factory rifle/carbine.

The Vortex is hands down the best for actual suppression. I have one I used on several rifles and carbines in the past. I think they look strange and consequently mines sitting on a shelf right now. Phantom comes in a very close second. Their is a thread, possibly on the Archive server now, that was in the AR discussion forum a while back. Complete with pictures at night. Someone else my have a reference to it otherwise do a search for it
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 2:06:57 PM EDT
$75 to change from an Izzy to a vortex is money best spent elsewhere. Like mags, ammo, optics, ect. Unless you are heading to Iraq (and this is even stretching it), dont bother, especially if your rifle lacks in other departments.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 2:32:50 PM EDT
the izzy is probably the worst flash hider available!


the std a2/a1 is a better flash hider than the izzy. in broad daylight shooting a 14.5" m4 with the izzy flash hider you can see the ball of fire.


there is a thread somewhere with comparison and others that have the same problem with them
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 3:22:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
the izzy is probably the worst flash hider available!


the std a2/a1 is a better flash hider than the izzy. in broad daylight shooting a 14.5" m4 with the izzy flash hider you can see the ball of fire.


there is a thread somewhere with comparison and others that have the same problem with them



I have to agree with this. I have the same model Bushmaster. Try shooting some XM193 at night...huge white fireball. I sent mine to ADCO for a perm attached Vortex G6. The Vortex is worlds better.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 3:29:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
$75 to change from an Izzy to a vortex is money best spent elsewhere. Like mags, ammo, optics, ect. Unless you are heading to Iraq (and this is even stretching it), dont bother, especially if your rifle lacks in other departments.



Think so...? I'm just a guy that wants good stuff. If the consensus is that the Izzy FH is as good as an A2 FH or better, I'll keep it. If it isn't, though, I'm going to send it in.

Thanks for your reply.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 3:30:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chadkok:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
the izzy is probably the worst flash hider available!


the std a2/a1 is a better flash hider than the izzy. in broad daylight shooting a 14.5" m4 with the izzy flash hider you can see the ball of fire.


there is a thread somewhere with comparison and others that have the same problem with them



I have to agree with this. I have the same model Bushmaster. Try shooting some XM193 at night...huge white fireball. I sent mine to ADCO for a perm attached Vortex G6. The Vortex is worlds better.



That's the kind of input I need!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:21:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 9:02:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 9:04:44 PM EDT by Trapfan]
I have the Izzy FH on my Bushmaster 14.5 inch M4A3 and to tell you the truth is seems to work just as well if not better than the A2 on my Colt Sporter Match HBAR. I too was going to ADCO to have a Vortex put on but after shooting it the Izzy FH is something I can live with. JMTCW......Trapfan
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:11:54 PM EDT
IF I get the Izzy - pinned AND welded - is it still possible to change to a better FS, or will most companies not touch it if it is attached that well?

Sportsman's called me today to tell me the rifle I requested is here, I want to be sure before I pay for it.

What are some reputable companies to trust with changing my FS?

Mac - Mac@MyM4.org
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:14:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jeeper37:
IF I get the Izzy - pinned AND welded - is it still possible to change to a better FS, or will most companies not touch it if it is attached that well?

Sportsman's called me today to tell me the rifle I requested is here, I want to be sure before I pay for it.

What are some reputable companies to trust with changing my FS?

Mac - Mac@MyM4.org



why not get one without it.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:51:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

why not get one without it.



I like the 14.5-inch barrel.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:06:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jeeper37:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

why not get one without it.



I like the 14.5-inch barrel.




why not get one without the izzy and with something that works
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:40:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

why not get one without the izzy and with something that works



Because that's a 16-inch barrel vs. the 14.5-inch barrel that comes with the Izzy.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:44:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jeeper37:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

why not get one without the izzy and with something that works



Because that's a 16-inch barrel vs. the 14.5-inch barrel that comes with the Izzy.





bushmaster offers the phantom.

but if there is no other option then just get the izzy and if it doesnt live up to your expectations send it to adcofirearms.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:46:30 PM EDT
I voted but when you said birdcage I was thinking A2 FH. The birdcage I never liked. The A2 does FH work just as well as far as I know and helps to reduce muzzle rise.

That said I only consider it the best of the under $12 category.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:55:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By jeeper37:

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

why not get one without the izzy and with something that works



Because that's a 16-inch barrel vs. the 14.5-inch barrel that comes with the Izzy.





bushmaster offers the phantom.

but if there is no other option then just get the izzy and if it doesnt live up to your expectations send it to adcofirearms.



+1 Get the 14.5 Bushy with the Phantom instead of the Izzy...
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:02:10 AM EDT
According to Bushmaster, the Phantom "...only applies if you buy an Upper Receiver Assembly, Barrel Assembly or Barrel Only." and is not availble on an assembled M4 from Sportsman's Warehouse. BUT the Phantom is only $35 from them, so if I go with the A2 Birdcage I could swap in the Phantom fairly painlessly.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 9:18:54 AM EDT
Just go with a Phantom and get it right the first time if you are looking for a 14.5" barrel. If you are using a 16", go with the A2 FS.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 10:50:52 AM EDT
14.5 and Phantom!!! PERIOD BUshmaster should do it!

The 16inch M4 barrel plus Bird cage makes it more than 17 inches
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:48:12 PM EDT
I'm perfectly happy with my Izzy flash-hider, and I have the 14.5" barrel. I have never seen a fireball at dusk with mine. Are you guys with the fireballs perhaps in possesion of the compensator instead of the FH?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 1:39:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FMJ:
14.5 and Phantom!!! PERIOD BUshmaster should do it!





Did they stop doing it? I have a Bushmaster 14.5" barrel with Phantom....
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 2:55:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BatMasterson:
I'm perfectly happy with my Izzy flash-hider, and I have the 14.5" barrel. I have never seen a fireball at dusk with mine. Are you guys with the fireballs perhaps in possesion of the compensator instead of the FH?




maybe you have a phantom or shooting wolf. bushmaster does offer the phantom and there are differnt style phantoms which are similar to the izzy.

just saying cause there was another member that argued this till he posted pics of his phantom equipped bushie.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:49:54 PM EDT
OK, just for kicks I just put the Izzy M4 on layaway and I'll get one with a birdcage next just for the sake of comparison.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:52:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 8:55:22 PM EDT by Head_Space]
I have the Bushmaster Phantom on a 14.5" and also an Izzy FH on a 14.5" and also an A2 FH on a 16"...... As I see it (and this is my personal opinion), in order of preference, Phantom, then A2 or Izzy..... I say A2 or Izzy as they are both functional, but I do not consider either to be a truly serious FH compared to the Phantom....... If the Phantom is an option, get it.... otherwise, either A2 or the Izzy will get the job done.

There are many other FH's available that are much more expensive, and provide much better performance, but the three that I have posted above I personally have in my posession and have actual first-hand knowledge of.....


Note:
As was previously posted XM193 will throw a fireball with the Izzy, but not so much with the A2 FH--- having said that, get the Izzy if you like and your shooting does not involve much XM193....... I had about 2000rds of Malysian M193 and I can tell you that fired from a 16" colt post-ban barrel (no FH) it was an experience, and from an Izzy it is much less a pyro-technic display, but had slightly less flash overall, and still a slight further reduction in "flamage" from the A2 FH....... Lowest flash signature..... obviously, the Phantom........

In short, do not waste your time getting an A2 barrel just for comparison, go ahead and spring for the Phantom....... You won't regret it.....

Hope this helps.......
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:50:08 AM EDT
Strangely enough, the Metal version 14.5 has an "Izzy" Flash Hider and the Carbon 15 plastic version includes a permanently installed “Izzy” Compensator to it's 14.5 barrel.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:09:00 AM EDT
Well, I decided to keep the Izzy FH. I haven't been to the range yet but I'm mostly going to be using it with 68gr. Black Hills bluebox, and I know they use flash retardant in their powder so it will likely - hopefully - be plenty to prevent a basketball sized flash signature!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:35:58 PM EDT
So far, when at the range, nobody has shot back at me.

Just in case, I have a phantom.
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