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Posted: 1/1/2006 7:43:29 PM EDT
I have heard several stories about Daniel Defence free float tubes twisting free.
What twists. Does the whole thing twist from the barrel nut or does the outer tube spin over the outside of the barrel nut.

Also, couldnt blue loctite and really cranking down not keep one from twisting even when gettin worked hard under fire with a vertical grip.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:21:10 PM EDT
The ring that cinches the tube onto the barrel nut vibrates loose. A dab of blue locktight stops it from happening. No big deal.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:31:53 PM EDT
i have 2 DD rails and while they dont get used every day for "work" neither have come loose yet. both are about 1 1/2 yrs old. upon assembly i put copper anti-sieze lube on the threads and use a heavy duty strap wrench to sinch'er down tight. this is kinda like the copper colored stuff that use to come on glock rail parts.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:03:25 AM EDT
mine came loose one after a hard day at the range.

Had it reinstalled and no problem since.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:29:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
I have heard several stories about Daniel Defence free float tubes twisting free.





I don't think any of the overseas contractors who are ordering the DD are finding them coming loose, but then again, look at who is installing them.

Quality products are only as good as their quality installation.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:03:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
I have heard several stories about Daniel Defence free float tubes twisting free.





I don't think any of the overseas contractors who are ordering the DD are finding them coming loose, but then again, look at who is installing them.

Quality products are only as good as their quality installation.



Thats what I though. Seems if you tighted the snot outa somethign and put loctite under it, it will hold. Id go with Larue if it werent for the 2-3oz weight difference as both seem to feel great. The possibility of DD loosening was causing me to hesitate though.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:15:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 2:15:27 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:47:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By jonathan1994:
Thats what I though. Seems if you tighted the snot outa somethign and put loctite under it, it will hold. Id go with Larue if it werent for the 2-3oz weight difference as both seem to feel great. The possibility of DD loosening was causing me to hesitate though.



This is ARFCOM, if DD rails were coming loose was an issue, you would be reading about it here everyday. They attach the same way as KAC if that makes you feel any better



Wait a second, you mean to tell me that just because it is not the flavor of the week it is not garbage? <GASP> I am shocked!!!!

The stories that get passed around this website are comical at best. If you read just the threads on the first page of this forum you would think a M16 can't even make it through a single mag without a failure and any rail but LaRue will loosen and fall off just taking it out of the case.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:52:45 PM EDT
Blue Loctite and a good, quality strap wrench works best for me.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:56:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:
The stories that get passed around this website are comical at best.



That is why some of us refer to it as ARFDOM. This site has been on a downward spiral for over 2 yrs.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:16:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

This is ARFCOM, if DD rails were coming loose was an issue, you would be reading about it here everyday.



you have a really good point here...as long as I have been reading posts here I should known that by now

Thanks...now I just gotta see if im getting mid length or carbine gas system.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 12:53:37 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:52:30 AM EDT
I had 2 of my DD rail systems loosen on me, one of them was installed at the factory the other was installed by a competient and well known gunsmith on this board (both rail systems were purchased in 2004 if I remember correctly).

A little blue loc-tite solved the problem, but made getting the rail system off the carbine a bit of a pain.



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:03:22 AM EDT
I saw a prototype DD FF tube that had screws like the Larue to keep it from loosening. They had a few at SHOT. They looked well made but uglier than a Larue.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:13:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Blue Loctite and a good, quality strap wrench works best for me.


And with the new design you don't have to rely on the strap wrench because it's notched for a spanner wrench. A much better solution.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:49:08 AM EDT
They should have made a retention system for the lock nut when the FFHG was released.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:17:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:25:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 5:25:41 AM EDT by metroplex]
AFAIK, .MIL is not issuing a FFHG of any kind to everyone.
The soldiers can obviously procure them elsewhere, and they may get them through the procurement system but that still doesn't make the part "mil-spec" or even approved by .mil for use in the field.

The FM 3-22.9, as of 2005, only lists the M4 and M5 RAS upgrade kits to make the M16A4 and M4A1 into the MWS, these are basically the KAC RAS 2-piece non-FF HGs. I'd say these would be the closest things to "mil-spec".
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:41:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 5:42:24 AM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:12:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:24:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

This is true. Most military groups use chicken wire to keep the barrel nut and HG nut secure.

C4



Any photos of this?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:54:25 AM EDT
Threaded stuff that isn't loctited will come loose on an AR eventually. It may take a long time or a short time; but it will work loose. List of things that are threaded on an AR that I didn't loctite on my personal rifles and eventually came loose on me:

Pistol grip (no joke)
Retaining ring on telestock
KAC FF-RAS collar
ACOG mounted in carry handle

I could probably triple that list if I added things I had witnessed first hand on other rifles. I now apply blue loctite religiously to almost anything that has threads and goes on a rifle. I'm telling you, the smart way to play it is just assume that anything with threads will eventually work loose if it isn't staked or loctited (and maybe even then). There is a reason witness marks on threaded items are popular with guys who shoot a lot.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:32:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MSTN:
"CHICKEN" WIRE ... AS IN ... "CHICKEN IT WILL COME LOOSE"?

IN AVIATION, WE CALL IT "SAFETY" WIRE. I THINK I'LL START CALLING IT "CHICKEN" WIRE, TOO.

THE NAME REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

WHAT DOES IS THAT YOU MINIMIZE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR COMPONENTS TO MALFUNCTION, COME LOOSE, FALL OFF, ETC. YOUR GUN TRIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU; YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.



It's called chicken wire because we used it to fix/attach mesh "fences" for the chicken coops. It's the easiest way and the chickens haven't come out, so it works. NASA/engineers will call it safety wire
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:44:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:03:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By MSTN:
"CHICKEN" WIRE ... AS IN ... "CHICKEN IT WILL COME LOOSE"?

IN AVIATION, WE CALL IT "SAFETY" WIRE. I THINK I'LL START CALLING IT "CHICKEN" WIRE, TOO.

THE NAME REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

WHAT DOES IS THAT YOU MINIMIZE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR COMPONENTS TO MALFUNCTION, COME LOOSE, FALL OFF, ETC. YOUR GUN TRIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU; YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.



It's called chicken wire because we used it to fix/attach mesh "fences" for the chicken coops. It's the easiest way and the chickens haven't come out, so it works. NASA/engineers will call it safety wire



There is chicken wire and there is safety/lock wire. One is made from ordinary drawn steel wire and the other is made from alloyed stainless steel. NASA uses Safety/Lock wire, ranchers and hillbillies use chicken wire.



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:25:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By MSTN:
"CHICKEN" WIRE ... AS IN ... "CHICKEN IT WILL COME LOOSE"?

IN AVIATION, WE CALL IT "SAFETY" WIRE. I THINK I'LL START CALLING IT "CHICKEN" WIRE, TOO.

THE NAME REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

WHAT DOES IS THAT YOU MINIMIZE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR COMPONENTS TO MALFUNCTION, COME LOOSE, FALL OFF, ETC. YOUR GUN TRIES TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU; YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.



It's called chicken wire because we used it to fix/attach mesh "fences" for the chicken coops. It's the easiest way and the chickens haven't come out, so it works. NASA/engineers will call it safety wire



There is chicken wire and there is safety/lock wire. One is made from ordinary drawn steel wire and the other is made from alloyed stainless steel. NASA uses Safety/Lock wire, ranchers and hillbillies use chicken wire.




The chicken wire I used for my coops were stainless steel. It may not be the Space Shuttle Door Gunner grade official NASA Safety/Lock wire though.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 4:50:31 PM EDT
is there any link to an install of these things? Do they make a wrench to tighten the nut down or just a strap wrench? I have saftey wired many things on aircraft using stainless saftey wire. ya got to make sure ya put it on so it does not loosten. we find many things saftey wired backwards to allow loosning of the componets. it gets hairy on multi fastner setups.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:39:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:51:18 AM EDT
I have found that heating the locking ring just prior to installation has worked well for me. I don't even use a strap wrench when it's hot (don't want to melt the rubber) I just use a fireman's glove (got it from Dad, don't know where to get them or what they're called) to hand tighten it while it's hot.

When it cools, I have taken the strap wrench to it at that point, but it didn't budge.

I got this idea when I installed a DD, took it to the range, and found it was loose after shooting. I assumed it was the heat, so I hand tightened it while hot (with a rag) and it didn't come loose again. I've been using heat (no loctite) ever since.

P.S. - I'm sure USMC03 is telling the truth about his DD rails, but from some of his other posts, I am not worried about ever duplicating the same set of circumstances in MY boring life
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 2:55:18 PM EDT
how hot are you talking bout putting it in the oven at whatever......or a torch?
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 5:27:53 AM EDT
I don't use a torch because I don't want to risk discoloring the ring... I just put it in the oven on 400 degrees when I start getting everything together for the install, and leave it there for however long it takes until it's time to install it. I never really checked the time, but I guess it could be 20 or 30 minutes, which is probably a lot longer than a tiny ring of aluminum needs to get hot.
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