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Posted: 12/18/2005 9:01:51 AM EDT
Can anyone tell me how much a 16" heavy barrel would weigh with fluting? I think a 16hbar is 2.8lbs and a bushy superlight is about 2lbs. What is the lightest profile that can be fluted?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:28:38 AM EDT
dont think superlight bbls can be fluted
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 11:25:30 AM EDT
Didn't mean to confuse.I'm sure you can't flute a superlight. just wondering about the other profiles.Basically i would prefer a heavier profile, but i don't want it to be too front heavy.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 11:26:53 AM EDT
Didn't mean to confuse.I'm sure you can't flute a superlight. just wondering about the other profiles.Basically i would prefer a heavier profile, but i don't want it to be too front heavy.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:28:00 PM EDT
It probably depends on the original diamter of the barrel and the length, but I think fluting generally reduces weight by 10%. I know that Slash had ADCO flute an 18" AR10 barrel. Before it weighed 58 oz and after it was 52 oz.

So for a 16" HBAR that weighs 45 oz, fluting would probably take off around 4 oz.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:33:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
Didn't mean to confuse.I'm sure you can't flute a superlight. just wondering about the other profiles.Basically i would prefer a heavier profile, but i don't want it to be too front heavy.



Well, we just mounted a recce upper on an RRA lower with the 6 pos buttstock. It's a stainless hbar, midlength gas system, built by ADCO, and it didn't feel too front heavy. I was concerned about this too. A lighter one may balance better bit it wasn't bad at all. In fact,
it felt pretty good. Now with the bipod attached it's front heavy. But still maneagable if you weren't going to do too much walking. Like if you were driving around in a truck looking for prairie dogs and you jumped out and threw it on the hood to toast some.









But I suppose it's all relative.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:01:14 PM EDT
I am already adding weight to the front as i'm probably going with an ARMS SIR handguard. The sir should add about 1/4lb i think. However the Ace Socom stock will help balance it out. If i find a good midlength barrel then the handguard will be that much heavier on the front end.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:27:02 PM EDT
You will not gain as much on a 16" as you do on a 20" because there is just as much barrel that you can't flute on a 16" as a 20" and there is a lot more that you can flute on the 20".

I just fluted a bull, 20" and it was 3.28 lb before and 2.36 lb after. Quite a change!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:47:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dtech1:
You will not gain as much on a 16" as you do on a 20" because there is just as much barrel that you can't flute on a 16" as a 20" and there is a lot more that you can flute on the 20".

I just fluted a bull, 20" and it was 3.28 lb before and 2.36 lb after. Quite a change!




yeah but with the 16" you dont have the extra weight for 4"s of bull bbl. + the reduce weight of the fluting
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:52:19 AM EDT
here are some thread discussing railed handguards/freefloats and collapsable stocks but i will save the pages and tell you to look at the few last pages about you socom stock.



with the barrel if you are just looking for a chromelined midlenght with no special duties and no full auto fire then i would highly suggest getting a rockriverarms middy from adcofirearms and have him recontour under the handguards to govt profile which would probably be the lightest midlenght you will be able to find.

great bbl. and great people to get the job done.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:09:49 AM EDT
Do most people want a fluted barrel to save weight or to dissapate heat with the increased surface area?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:59:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MyakkaVice:
Do most people want a fluted barrel to save weight or to dissapate heat with the increased surface area?



Pretty much all of the above, plus the "cool factor" goes up quite a bit at the same time.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:01:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
The sir should add about 1/4lb i think. ...



Half pound - minimum. SIR systems weight between 16.1oz and 20.6oz for a carbine length system. Standard handguard system weighs 7.5oz.

If you only want to add 1/4 pound then pick up the Sampson SMRF-C - just as easy to install, it's all aluminum (unlike the SIR) and you don't change the height of the receiver rail so all the BUISes and optics work with it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:49:01 PM EDT
I am actually not leaning toward a midlength, i just wouldn't mind the longer gas tube. Plus based on looks think the carb shows a little too much barrel past the handguard.

thanks for the references EKLIKWHOA. I had the thread on forends printed out a while ago. Had read the one on stocks as well, but had forgotten about your bad experiences.although this is my first post, have been reading for some time and remember only one other guy who had a .50 complain about the ace stock. (would like a solid/sturdy stock and the magpuls just too busy)

I think FOREST is right SIR should add more like 1/2lb.(have the weights just didnt look it up)

With the sir and ace am looking at adding almost a pound to the ar and would like to try to keep the weight down without going pencil barrel, hence the fluting/weight question.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:57:19 PM EDT
Wondering about different weights,profiles of 16" barrels? Maybe good manufacturers/venders?


Hopeing ffor actual weight comparisons on fluting,etc.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:07:44 PM EDT
JJ, is that mount a Larue SPR-E? If it is, is there enough clearance between the rear throw lever and upper that you can mount a back-up iron sight? Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:37:21 PM EDT
This doesn't answer your question, but i ti s minmal.

Fluting was designed for "Cooling" of the barrel by adding more surface area, not weight reduction.

Tack
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:31:54 PM EDT
My personal experience is that, if you want lighter weight while keeping your heavier profile, you should get it "turned and fluted". That is, turned down to about .800 under the handguards and then fluted.

I have a RRA mid-length that I had turned and fluted by KKF. I don't know what it weighed before, but RRA barrels are FULL HBAR under the HG (no taper at all). After being turned to .850 and fluted, it weighs 35.1 ounces which is 2.4 ounces more than a 16" HBAR.

Another less expensive option is to just have the barrel profiled to .750 under the handguards. It will weigh about the same as my turned and fluted, but cost you $50 compared to $90.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:44:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
Wondering about different weights,profiles of 16" barrels? Maybe good manufacturers/venders?


Hopeing ffor actual weight comparisons on fluting,etc.



Send me an e-mail. I got a spreadsheet that I think you'll like.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:36:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sinister:
JJ, is that mount a Larue SPR-E? If it is, is there enough clearance between the rear throw lever and upper that you can mount a back-up iron sight? Thanks.




if you get a good low profile buis it should fit, arms #40l, troy, knights, gg&g probably some others that i cant think of.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:37:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
I am actually not leaning toward a midlength, i just wouldn't mind the longer gas tube. Plus based on looks think the carb shows a little too much barrel past the handguard.

thanks for the references EKLIKWHOA. I had the thread on forends printed out a while ago. Had read the one on stocks as well, but had forgotten about your bad experiences.although this is my first post, have been reading for some time and remember only one other guy who had a .50 complain about the ace stock. (would like a solid/sturdy stock and the magpuls just too busy)

I think FOREST is right SIR should add more like 1/2lb.(have the weights just didnt look it up)

With the sir and ace am looking at adding almost a pound to the ar and would like to try to keep the weight down without going pencil barrel, hence the fluting/weight question.





probably me who complained about the socom on my .50 but also have two that have been mounted on 5.56 rifles that went tits up.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:08:39 AM EDT
Yep, DEFINITELY e-mail Forest for his incredible spreadsheet.

I've spec'd out the weight of all my babies since obtaining my copy.


Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
Wondering about different weights,profiles of 16" barrels? Maybe good manufacturers/venders?


Hopeing ffor actual weight comparisons on fluting,etc.



Send me an e-mail. I got a spreadsheet that I think you'll like.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:11:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
Didn't mean to confuse.I'm sure you can't flute a superlight. just wondering about the other profiles.Basically i would prefer a heavier profile, but i don't want it to be too front heavy.



Sounds like you have "special" needs.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:22:28 PM EDT
sent email forest

Thank you onslaught. Thiat is the kind of info i'm looking for. I think there are slightly different heavy profiles. Was kinda wondering about how light a dia. can be while still being fluted yet sturdy.


Have a Colt sp-1 with pencil barrel/aluminum stock and like it just fine.
This ar is going to be my build. I'd like a "sturdier/solid" carb (obviously not hung up on a feather weight),but i dont want to go too heavy.(wish carbon fiber had better and longer track record). Although for fun, dont want to sacrifice any reliability as it would be one of SHTF guns,and held at ready long time,hot,etc.

Not to go offtopic ,but any solid(not plastic)stocks you recommend ekilkwhoa?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:08:56 AM EDT
you are pretty limited on stocks if you are looking for one that isnt plastic.


i personally love magpul stocks, never could justify the cost but after the first one i couldnt justify not getting them.

recently acquired a vltor a1 clubfoot which has a really nice cheek weld for my beowulf.

the beowulf is somewhat front heavy due to the large bore and heavy profile along with 2"s of metal for a brake up front and i dont have any problems with it and the vltor.




my recon has a railed freefloat along with a bipod and larue mount and it isnt that bad with the magpul.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:18:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
sent email forest


If you want a reply you're going to have to fix your account. My e-mail just got bounced.

Your other option is to download it from the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site - see the 'What's New' page to get instructions on where to find it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:26:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 11:27:33 AM EDT by Randall_Rausch]
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:40:09 PM EDT
So then turning down AND fluting a heavy barrel would basically split the difference between a superlight and a heavy barrel?


Still think a magpul is too complicated and really expensive for a stock(though money not such a concern as its taking me forever to scrape together for build) BUT - is it metal?

Always liked the vltor,but its plastic too isn't it?What does the vltor 6pos. w/o clubfoot weigh?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:33:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
So then turning down AND fluting a heavy barrel would basically split the difference between a superlight and a heavy barrel?


Well again, my barrel, which used to be something like .920 all the way to the FSB was turned down to .850 and fluted under the handguards. According to Forest's table, it weighs the same as a mid-length barrel that is .750 for it's entire length. So given the same weight barrels, the fluted one will be stiffer than the non-fluted one. If you had one turned to .750 under the HG AND fluted, you'd probably be darn light. BUT STILL, if I had it to do over, I'd have gotten my barrel turned to .750 and called it a day. ($50 Cheaper, and the same weight.)

I probably would have gotten another ounce or two if I had the front fluted too.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:48:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
Still think a magpul is too complicated and really expensive for a stock(though money not such a concern as its taking me forever to scrape together for build) BUT - is it metal?


Plastic. Just about every AR stock is. Heck the plastic telestocks hold up better than the original aluminum stocks.


What does the vltor 6pos. w/o clubfoot weigh?


It's in the spreadsheet - which by the way was rejected again from your e-mail account. You've either got to lower you SPAM settings on your e-mail or just download off www.MD-AR15.com per my previous instructions.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:54:16 AM EDT
If you dont want a front heavy rifle there are two things that will help. Shorter and lighter.

Shorter will improve the front heavy issue better than a reduction in weight via fluting. However from your screen name it appears you are 16 and cant do an SBR for 5 more years. Id honestly suggest an ultralight or you wont be happy with the balance after you start puting stuff on your rifle and I dont think you will find it to have any deficit in your "performance needs" area. If it would not meet your needs I suggest looking at the carbon fiber barrels by ABS. You get the full HBAR diameter for rigitity, better cooling than fluting by manitudes of order, and it weighs less than an ultralight barrel. Very expensive though...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:04:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:21:58 AM EDT
Steve,

If you wouldn't mind, how about a 16" mid-length bbl? I never weighed mine before having it reprofiled and fluted.

Thanks!


Originally Posted By RRAMODERATOR:
Using RRA parts:
Factory 16" CAR bbl assy (HBAR) 2.6lbs
Factory 16" CAR bbl assy (fluted HBAR) 2.2lbs
Both weighed on same postal scale under identical conditions.

Steve/RRA

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:57:47 PM EDT
Thanks steve/rra!-whats the barrel dia fro rra(hbar-car 16")? under handguards and in front of sight if possible.

Devl i have looked into abs carbon fiber barrels and am just sceptical. too new i guess,and i'd rather have crome than stainless.any personal experience?am especially concerned about ability to stand up to abuse i.e. striking objects like corner of wall,ground/concrete from falling,etc. once a friend tilted barrel-superlight- profile up toward ceiling and it got wacked by ceiling fan!left a permanent wood mark(wouldn't scrub off with soapy water or oily brush),but otherwise seemed and shot fine.

By the way i was 16 when mr rhodam-clinton dropped the 93' aw ban. The 16 is for 16" barrel. Its just a stupid screennameone reason wont go shorter because dont want perm. attach flash hider.never know whats new next year.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:10:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Randall_Rausch:
If you want to save weight, simply reduce the whole diameter of the barrel.
Fluting is only going to get you 4 to 6 ounces.
Reducing the diemater of an HBAR can easily shave a pound or more.
I do this stuff all the time.
If you want to model what different diameter barrels would weigh, play with my Barrel Weight Calculator



4 to 6 ounces? Where do you get that? When I flute a 20" bull I loose about 15 ounces. Sure, fluting an H-BAR won't yield that kind of weight loss but I get much better accuracy from fluting than I do by reducing the profile.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:30:18 PM EDT
As per Bushmaster when I built my 16" with fluted barrel, a fluted barrel will weigh 2 OZ more than an M4 barrel. You can just call them and they will be happy to give you the exact figures to the ounce!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:32:10 PM EDT
2 OZ, that's not fluting, those are just scratches! lol.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:15:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:22:14 PM EDT
These weights will vary some depending on length and depth of fluting, etc. But in general it's very accurate.

10" Fluted HBAR 1.5
10" HBAR 1.6
11.5" (A1 profile - XM177 type) 1.3
11.5" Fluted HBAR 1.6
11.5" HBAR 1.8
14.5" M4 1.6
14.5" M4A1 (heavier under the handguards) 1.8
14.5" Fluted HBAR 1.8
14.5" HBAR 2.1
16" Super Light Weight (A1 type) 1.5
16" M4 1.8
16" Mid Length (Govt Profile under handguards) 1.6
16" Medium Profile (0.75" for entire length) 1.8
16" Medium Profile MRP Barrel (includes gas block & gas tube) 2.3
16" Fluted HBAR 2.1
16" HBAR 2.3
16" M4 Dissapator 1.9
16" Fluted HBAR Dissapator 2.2
16" HBAR Dissapator 2.6
20" 'Pencil' (A1) Profile 1.8
20" Govt (A2) Profile 2.1
20" Fluted HBAR 2.6
20" HBAR 3.1
24" Fluted HBAR 2.7
24" HBAR 3.5

These weights do not include handguard cap, flash supressor, barrel nut & associate hardware. Weights are in pounds.

This is not my chart. I lost the original posters name, so I hope it's all right that I reposted it without asking.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:34:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:36:10 PM EDT
So who's figures are you quoting here? In the last 10 years I have probably fluted 500 barrels. I don't flute the barrels for cosmetics, I flute them for weight reduction and increased surface area.

Like I said, I take 15 ounces off of a 20" bull. If I couln't reduce the weight any more than the chart that you show above, I wouln't even bother.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:49:26 PM EDT
Isn't a bull thicker than an HBAR? Every time you increase the radius of a circle, you increase the area exponentially (pie x radius squared). So this may have something to do with it. Add in some deeper than normal flutes and it's not hard to imagine that you could shave 15 ounces.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:53:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:56:30 PM EDT
There is no doubt that you can take way more material off of a bull barrel than you can an H-BAR, it just staggers my imagination that anyone would actually go through the work or expense of flutting for only a few ounces.

I't's easy for me to forget that my customers are far from the "main-stream" AR user. I no longer have any objectivity with AR's.........I think of them all as haveing match-grade stainless barrels and large scopes.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:59:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:00:44 PM EDT by Randall_Rausch]
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:08:04 PM EDT
I have lived an isolated existence for the last couple of years. I have been so busy with building the WSSM's I haven't done anything with any of the other offerings that have been so popular. Not only have I not had time to build anything else, I haven't even had time to shoot or play with any of the other "toys"
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:36:16 PM EDT
This is all great info!Weight is of great concern,but obviously not the only one or iwould just get another pencil barrel or a gov profile.I got the impression somewhere that a fluted barrel,being more rigid would whip lessand therefore be more accurate.saw footage once of an m16(full auto granted)slowed down 30,000times an could not believe how much the barrel warped up & down. I would think it would dissipate heat better, and less steel=less weight.

Love forests chart-was exactlly what i wanted.But all the weights seem a bit lighter than what i've seen elswhere?

Can someone tell me if you can flute a med profile?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:07:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PanzerMK7:
These weights will vary some depending on length and depth of fluting, etc. But in general it's very accurate.

10" Fluted HBAR 1.5
10" HBAR 1.6
11.5" (A1 profile - XM177 type) 1.3
11.5" Fluted HBAR 1.6
11.5" HBAR 1.8
14.5" M4 1.6
14.5" M4A1 (heavier under the handguards) 1.8
14.5" Fluted HBAR 1.8
14.5" HBAR 2.1
16" Super Light Weight (A1 type) 1.5
16" M4 1.8
16" Mid Length (Govt Profile under handguards) 1.6
16" Medium Profile (0.75" for entire length) 1.8
16" Medium Profile MRP Barrel (includes gas block & gas tube) 2.3
16" Fluted HBAR 2.1
16" HBAR 2.3
16" M4 Dissapator 1.9
16" Fluted HBAR Dissapator 2.2
16" HBAR Dissapator 2.6
20" 'Pencil' (A1) Profile 1.8
20" Govt (A2) Profile 2.1
20" Fluted HBAR 2.6
20" HBAR 3.1
24" Fluted HBAR 2.7
24" HBAR 3.5

These weights do not include handguard cap, flash supressor, barrel nut & associate hardware. Weights are in pounds.

This is not my chart. I lost the original posters name, so I hope it's all right that I reposted it without asking.



Now thats some outstanding info.

It looks to me like fluting isn't worth the time or expense.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:35:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By karbinekid16:
.But all the weights seem a bit lighter than what i've seen elswhere?



Yep

Which is why you need page 3 of the spreadsheet to explain how the weights are presented.

The weights for the barrels show are the weights of the barrels w/o any 'unneeded' parts. So the weights of these parts have been deleted:
Front Sight Base
Muzzle Devices
Barrel Nut & related handgauard retention parts
Handguard Cap


This is because the chart is used to determine the project weight of the rifle. Since some builders use different sas blocks (instead of the FSB) or different handguards (which have their own barrel nut) it makes it easier to just delete those items from the barrel weights.

However since the same parts were removed from all them, the weight differences between the barrels remain the same so you can still use the chart to compare barrels.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:01:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 3:09:37 PM EDT
Uhm, pardon me for inserting my $.02, but the real advantage of fluting that I haven't seen posted here, is that fluting improves heat dissipation by increasing barrel surface area. Another advantage, when done properly, is that it helps keep the barrel straight as it heats and it also stabilizes the vibrations/harmonics in the barrel. I offer that fluting was originally added to high end target barrels for accuracy purposes and not necessarily for weight savings.

Food for thought.
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