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Posted: 12/15/2005 10:14:45 AM EDT
Thanks in advance for the info. I am a first time buyer of an AR15. I definitely want an all Mil-Spec rifle. I've looked at RRA, Bushy, and DPMS. Do you guys have any suggestions? Please give me some guidance.

Thanks.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:22:05 AM EDT
This is the most beat to death topic ever. Do a little searching around with the search function.
RRA and Bushy are both top quality names. I personally would choose an RRA over a Bushy but thats just me. Look on EE for good used prices if you want to save money or buy one with mods already done to it.
I actually own a CMMG/Mega AR. Very nice and exactly what I want.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:26:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stretch415:
This is the most beat to death topic ever. Do a little searching around with the search function.
RRA and Bushy are both top quality names. I personally would choose an RRA over a Bushy but thats just me. Look on EE for good used prices if you want to save money or buy one with mods already done to it.
I actually own a CMMG/Mega AR. Very nice and exactly what I want.



If this was a waste of time for you, maybe you shouldn't have replied. (No flame intended) I am new here and I didn't realize that this topic was so well covered. However, thanks just the same for your time.

Best.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:31:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:

Originally Posted By stretch415:
This is the most beat to death topic ever. Do a little searching around with the search function.
RRA and Bushy are both top quality names. I personally would choose an RRA over a Bushy but thats just me. Look on EE for good used prices if you want to save money or buy one with mods already done to it.
I actually own a CMMG/Mega AR. Very nice and exactly what I want.



If this was a waste of time for you, maybe you shouldn't have replied. (No flame intended) I am new here and I didn't realize that this topic was so well covered. However, thanks just the same for your time.

Best.

Mike.


Not trying to be a dumbass just letting you know that there is a search button. Basically every new person comes on and asks this exact same question.
As far a mil spec you talking M4 profile?
Here is a pic of my CMMG 14.5" 1/7 twist upper and Mega complete lower before and after I kryloned it:
Before:

After:



Rifle cost me $700 to build(basically bought a complete lower and complete upper of EE)
So depending on what your budget is you have some options. I personally would build one for the fact that you gain alot of knowledge while putting it together and you save money. Not to mention its fun. Hope this helps a little more
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:41:48 AM EDT
stretch415,

I'm definitely looking for an M4 version. I'd really like to have a Colt, as they are the originators along with Stoner, of course. However, I've heard that they are not Mil Spec. I'd like to try building one, however, I don't have the appropriate tools for the build. My brother is a Class 3 dealer so I can get wholesale pricing on whatever I need (not boasting, just stating), including complete rifles. What would you suggest?

Thanks again.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:58:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
stretch415,

I'm definitely looking for an M4 version. I'd really like to have a Colt, as they are the originators along with Stoner, of course. However, I've heard that they are not Mil Spec. I'd like to try building one, however, I don't have the appropriate tools for the build. My brother is a Class 3 dealer so I can get wholesale pricing on whatever I need (not boasting, just stating), including complete rifles. What would you suggest?

Thanks again.

Mike.


Good choice. Then you have to decide between the 16" and the 14.5 w/ perm attached flash hider. I went with a 14.5" w/hider(16" overall) to keep length down. There isnt much difference as far as accuracy. Chrome lining in the barrel is also worth the extra money. I also opted for m4 feedramps(not true ones just cut ins after anodizing) to help with feeding(although who knows if it actually does) Definately a A3 flattop with removalble handle for options with optics.
I had a bushmaster E2S before I got my new one and it was nice also. Really it comes down to personal preference. If you have money for a colt then go for it but IMO they are overpriced and doesnt shoot any better than anything else.

If I had the money to buy a colt I would go on EE here on ar15.com and look at a modded one that someone is forced to sell. There are some real deals that include 4 rail handguards, grips, buttstock, sights, etc mods already done for $1000shipped.

As far as building goes I did not build mine up from the ground up either. I dont have a shop and lack firearm tools. I just bought a completed upper and slapped it on a completed lower and had a $700 AR with everything I was looking for. They can be had for cheaper than that if you really want to look around.

Bottom line is everyone has brand loyalty and none really are going to outperform the other with similar features unless they are super cheapo brands. But you are more than safe with RRA, Bushmaster, Colt, etc.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:58:15 AM EDT
Build yourself a Colt if you have that kind of connection. Buy a lower with the parts installed, and pick your stock, 4pt, 6pt, fixed, socom, whatever. Then look around for a Colt M4 complete upper. I finally found a Colt M4 upper, they take some looking to find but they are what you want. I love mine, Look for the mark on the front of the flat top reciever and make sure it has the M4 stamp. I saw alot of uppers with the feed ramps but I finally found the M4 upper. it is t-marked also. I put my whole gun together for around 750. I got the lower free but it was stripped. I bought the upper brand new in the bag for 575.00 Colt are mil-spec, they have to be they make them for the military. There are alot of cool lower recievers too. Look for one stamped 5.56 and not .223 that way its less likely you'll see another one like it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 10:59:06 AM EDT
and for the record I am by no means an expert as some really are on the boards. Just my $.02 so make sure to surf around and checkout other threads of similar nature
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:52:39 PM EDT
stretch415


Thanks again for the response. I would prefer a Colt. However, how do I determine if the one I desire is milspec? I've been informed that some are not milspec. Is this true? I, too, prefer the 14.
5 " version with the longer flash hider. Who would carry this model?

Thanks.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:54:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsxr_rcr:
Build yourself a Colt if you have that kind of connection. Buy a lower with the parts installed, and pick your stock, 4pt, 6pt, fixed, socom, whatever. Then look around for a Colt M4 complete upper. I finally found a Colt M4 upper, they take some looking to find but they are what you want. I love mine, Look for the mark on the front of the flat top reciever and make sure it has the M4 stamp. I saw alot of uppers with the feed ramps but I finally found the M4 upper. it is t-marked also. I put my whole gun together for around 750. I got the lower free but it was stripped. I bought the upper brand new in the bag for 575.00 Colt are mil-spec, they have to be they make them for the military. There are alot of cool lower recievers too. Look for one stamped 5.56 and not .223 that way its less likely you'll see another one like it.



Is it actually less expensive to build an AR as opposed to buying a complete rifle? If I were to build the way you suggested, where would I start to obtain the necessary parts? I've been told that the new Colt's are not milspec. Can you verify this for me? Thanks for your time.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:05:05 PM EDT
Honestly I know nothing about colts. My dad has a early 70s sporter AR and thats the only thing I have every come close to that is colt. You are going to pay alot more for the same rifle. As far as this Mil-spec thing I dont really know. Mine is about as close as you can get to a m4 without actually being one so I feel that I have achieved this Mil-Spec that you speak of being that I have the barrel,CMT milspec 6 pos stock, sorta m4 feedramps.

What is it that you plan on doing with this rifle? Myself, I shoot mine as a plinker and home defense and a last resort shit hit the fan rifle.

The parts that Im talking about are in Equipment Exchange(button on the top right of the toolbar) The lowers will be in Receivers and complete rifles and the Uppers will be in the Used or Uppers section.
Yes they CAN be had for cheaper if you shop around for deals. I dont mind mildly used parts so I can make them for cheaper but if you prefer new you will pay alittle more. You also get what you want the first time rather than replacing a bunch of parts on a stock rifle.

Do a search for Mil-spec and see what you find but like I said probably 1/7 twist barrel, light profile for barrel under handguards, and m4 feedramps? Other than that you would just be paying for Mil-spec name or something.

Hope this helps - Tyler
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:09:21 PM EDT
Forgot to ad that I think of Mil-SPec as a buzzword without alot of meaning. I think it gets thrown around alot without alot of meaning behind it so wouldnt be a bad idea to ask your source of the word what they mean by it. Could be something really simple of could be mother of all info.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:47:01 PM EDT
$1000 and comes with 6 mags, case, and ready for a aimpoint and eotech on top
Ameetec m4gery
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:52:18 PM EDT
Sabre defense upper
everything STAG/CMT lower
best buy out there
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:34:01 PM EDT
Just my opinion, but during Patrol Rifle classes, SWAT Carbine classes, Carbine classes that I attend, and Tactical Carbine classes that I help instruct, I see more problems with guns that have parts made from several manufacturers.

In a recent carbine class one guy had a complete Olympic lower with a complete Colt lower and another guy that had a complete Bushmaster lower and a complete DPMS upper. Both guys had trouble with their guns. All the factory complete guns were running fine.


Here is a quote from a student who had a gun with a different upper and lower come to a Tactical Carbine class and his gun went tit's up:

"This rifle had previously been part of some sick frankenblaster, and after some bad experiences with it at a Tactical Response Carbine Course, and some sage advise by our own Jeff Carpenter, it has been restored to its core factory components. "

See the entire thread here: getoffthex.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/396100896

I just wrote this for a friend who live here in Colorado and had planned on getting a Colt LE6920 once he got back from Iraq:


I've got 3 Colt LE6920's and I paid around $950 each for plus $100 to have Ken Elmore at S.A.W. do his reliablity upgrade on a each gun.

CMT is Contentinal Machine and Tool (not to be confused with LMT Lewis Machine and Tool). CMT and Stag Arms are the SAME COMPANY. CMT / Stag is the sub-contractor who makes Colt's uppers, lowers, etc, and they also make the same parts for Rock River Arms.

I had heard a lot of good things about CMT / Stag and have had the chance to check out quite a few of their guns recently. I am very impressed with the fit, finish, qulaity, and features on the Stag Arms guns.

When comparing my Colt LE6920's to factory Stag Arms M4's here are the only difference I noted:

-Stag has a 1/9" twist barrel, the Colt a 1/7" (but both have the Colt M4 feed ramps). Barrel twist is a non issue as most of us shoot 55 grain to 62 grain ammo 99% of the time.

-The Stag finish was about 1 shade darker, you had to look had at both and be in direct sunlight to tell the difference.

-The Stag has a Colt mil-spec buffer tube, but has 6 positions instead of the 4 on the Colt buffer tube....Because Stag makes Colt's buffer tubes, they are the same spec....Both Vltor and LMT SOPMOD stocks will fit perfectly on the Stag tube.

-The Stag handguard only had 1 heat shiled.

-The Stag has a M16 style bolt carrier that covers the firing pin. The Colt has Colt's nuetered bolt carrier group. I prefer Stag's bolt carrier group.

If you got to www.stagarms.com they only offer 3 different carbines and 1 20" flat top AR15A3. On Stag's website the guns start off at $900 and go up. NONE of Stag's dealers (that I could find) carry COMPLETE Rifle / Carbines. BUT many of the dealers carry COMPLETE UPPERS and COMPLETE LOWERS (you just have to put the upper on the lower and close the pins).

www.eaglefirearms.net in Brighton, CO. carries the COMPLETE Carbine lower for $215 and the COMPLETE M4 upper (no carry handle) for $429. That is $644 (plus tax, shipping, and transfer fee....still under $700) for a COMPLETE M4 carbine, that is pretty much the same thing as the Colt LE6920. Excluding tax, shipping, transfer fee, you can buy 2 Stag M4's for the price of the average LE6920 (average civilian price on a Colt 6920 is $1250 to $1350).

I just bought 2 complete Stag Carbine's (minus the barrel). I'm putting Rock River Arms mid-length barrels (custom countoured for me by ADCO Firearms) on both guns.

The way I understand it is, CMT has been in buisness as a sub-contractor for well known quality AR15 manufacturers for quite some time (Colt and Rock River Arms). In 2003 CMT came out with a "retail" line of their own and named it "Stag Arms". Don't quote me on this but from what I was told some time ago, it's a father / son team. Dad runs CMT while son runs Stag Arms.


You can NOT beat the quality or the price. A COMPLETE M4 carbine for $644 ...... you can't even build a piece of shit parts gun for that.....It's a NO BRAINER.....there should be NO REASON for me to see another DMPS Upper / Colt lower, or Colt Upper / Olympic Lower, or Model 1 Sales Upper / Bushmaster Lower, or just a parts gun in general at a class ever again!!!

Good luck

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:59:22 PM EDT
I would get a cmmg 16" midlength upper with a lower that has a collapsible stock.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:24:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:


-The Stag has a M16 style bolt carrier that covers the firing pin. The Colt has Colt's nuetered bolt carrier group. I prefer Stag's bolt carrier group.

USMC03

Thank you very much for all the info. I did not know about Stags history. I thought they were a "lesser" brand. I will definitely consider them, now. Can you explain to me about "covered" firing pin? Thanks again.

Mike.




Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:25:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By az-ar:
I would get a cmmg 16" midlength upper with a lower that has a collapsible stock.



Thank you for your time.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:44:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
<snip> Stag Arms </snip>
You can NOT beat the quality or the price. A COMPLETE M4 carbine for $644 ...... you can't even build a piece of shit parts gun for that.....It's a NO BRAINER.


Thanks for posting this. I've gone through that a couple times at least in chat so far. I just wish Stag would make midlength barrels (as you do as well it seems )
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:49:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Thanks for posting this. I've gone through that a couple times at least in chat so far. I just wish Stag would make midlength barrels (as you do as well it seems )





Gamma,



Take a look at Bravo Company's new line up. They are using a CMT (Stag) upper and putting their Govt Profile Mid-Length barrel on the upper:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=260258

I just had RRA (custom countour by ADCO) put on both of my CMT / Stag uppers. Now you can buy a complete CMT upper with a quality mid-length barrel already installed at Bravo Company.



Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:06:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
USMC03

Thank you very much for all the info. I did not know about Stags history. I thought they were a "lesser" brand. I will definitely consider them, now. Can you explain to me about "covered" firing pin? Thanks again.

Mike.





Mike,


Kind of hard to explain here. The bottom bolt carrier group has the firing pin covered (CMT bolt carrier group looks almost just like this). The bolt carrier group in the middle has the firing pin exposed (as most AR15 bolt carrier groups do.....Bushmaster, Armalite, most Colts, Eagle Arms, etc, etc)



Picture courtesy of Quarterbore.com




Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:28:21 AM EDT
bushmaster
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:02:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
Just my opinion, but during Patrol Rifle classes, SWAT Carbine classes, Carbine classes that I attend, and Tactical Carbine classes that I help instruct, I see more problems with guns that have parts made from several manufacturers.

In a recent carbine class one guy had a complete Olympic lower with a complete Colt lower and another guy that had a complete Bushmaster lower and a complete DPMS upper. Both guys had trouble with their guns. All the factory complete guns were running fine.


Here is a quote from a student who had a gun with a different upper and lower come to a Tactical Carbine class and his gun went tit's up:

"This rifle had previously been part of some sick frankenblaster, and after some bad experiences with it at a Tactical Response Carbine Course, and some sage advise by our own Jeff Carpenter, it has been restored to its core factory components. "

See the entire thread here: getoffthex.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/396100896

I just wrote this for a friend who live here in Colorado and had planned on getting a Colt LE6920 once he got back from Iraq:


I've got 3 Colt LE6920's and I paid around $950 each for plus $100 to have Ken Elmore at S.A.W. do his reliablity upgrade on a each gun.

CMT is Contentinal Machine and Tool (not to be confused with LMT Lewis Machine and Tool). CMT and Stag Arms are the SAME COMPANY. CMT / Stag is the sub-contractor who makes Colt's uppers, lowers, etc, and they also make the same parts for Rock River Arms.

I had heard a lot of good things about CMT / Stag and have had the chance to check out quite a few of their guns recently. I am very impressed with the fit, finish, qulaity, and features on the Stag Arms guns.

When comparing my Colt LE6920's to factory Stag Arms M4's here are the only difference I noted:

-Stag has a 1/9" twist barrel, the Colt a 1/7" (but both have the Colt M4 feed ramps). Barrel twist is a non issue as most of us shoot 55 grain to 62 grain ammo 99% of the time.

-The Stag finish was about 1 shade darker, you had to look had at both and be in direct sunlight to tell the difference.

-The Stag has a Colt mil-spec buffer tube, but has 6 positions instead of the 4 on the Colt buffer tube....Because Stag makes Colt's buffer tubes, they are the same spec....Both Vltor and LMT SOPMOD stocks will fit perfectly on the Stag tube.

-The Stag handguard only had 1 heat shiled.

-The Stag has a M16 style bolt carrier that covers the firing pin. The Colt has Colt's nuetered bolt carrier group. I prefer Stag's bolt carrier group.

If you got to www.stagarms.com they only offer 3 different carbines and 1 20" flat top AR15A3. On Stag's website the guns start off at $900 and go up. NONE of Stag's dealers (that I could find) carry COMPLETE Rifle / Carbines. BUT many of the dealers carry COMPLETE UPPERS and COMPLETE LOWERS (you just have to put the upper on the lower and close the pins).

www.eaglefirearms.net in Brighton, CO. carries the COMPLETE Carbine lower for $215 and the COMPLETE M4 upper (no carry handle) for $429. That is $644 (plus tax, shipping, and transfer fee....still under $700) for a COMPLETE M4 carbine, that is pretty much the same thing as the Colt LE6920. Excluding tax, shipping, transfer fee, you can buy 2 Stag M4's for the price of the average LE6920 (average civilian price on a Colt 6920 is $1250 to $1350).

I just bought 2 complete Stag Carbine's (minus the barrel). I'm putting Rock River Arms mid-length barrels (custom countoured for me by ADCO Firearms) on both guns.

The way I understand it is, CMT has been in buisness as a sub-contractor for well known quality AR15 manufacturers for quite some time (Colt and Rock River Arms). In 2003 CMT came out with a "retail" line of their own and named it "Stag Arms". Don't quote me on this but from what I was told some time ago, it's a father / son team. Dad runs CMT while son runs Stag Arms.


You can NOT beat the quality or the price. A COMPLETE M4 carbine for $644 ...... you can't even build a piece of shit parts gun for that.....It's a NO BRAINER.....there should be NO REASON for me to see another DMPS Upper / Colt lower, or Colt Upper / Olympic Lower, or Model 1 Sales Upper / Bushmaster Lower, or just a parts gun in general at a class ever again!!!

Good luck




Hallelujah. As if I needed any more convincing to go with CMT/Stag parts. Thanks for posting all that info!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:18:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
USMC03

Thank you very much for all the info. I did not know about Stags history. I thought they were a "lesser" brand. I will definitely consider them, now. Can you explain to me about "covered" firing pin? Thanks again.

Mike.





Mike,


Kind of hard to explain here. The bottom bolt carrier group has the firing pin covered (CMT bolt carrier group looks almost just like this). The bolt carrier group in the middle has the firing pin exposed (as most AR15 bolt carrier groups do.....Bushmaster, Armalite, most Colts, Eagle Arms, etc, etc)

quarterbore.com/images/ar15_sp1_m16carriers_sm.jpg

Picture courtesy of Quarterbore.com








Thanks so much for the info. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to having the firing pin covered?

Thanks.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:30:23 PM EDT
USMC03

I just spoke with Jeff from CMMG. What a very nice and informative guy. He allowed me 45 minutes of his time to any and all questions I had regarding his product. I've also done some research on this forum--and others--and have come away with a very positive attitude about their rifles. Have you had any experience with these rifles? Are they of high quality, reliable and accurate? Any info would be appreciated.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:16:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
USMC03

I just spoke with Jeff from CMMG. What a very nice and informative guy. He allowed me 45 minutes of his time to any and all questions I had regarding his product. I've also done some research on this forum--and others--and have come away with a very positive attitude about their rifles. Have you had any experience with these rifles? Are they of high quality, reliable and accurate? Any info would be appreciated.

Mike.




Mike,

The guys at CMMG are good guys, I have purchased non-AR15 guns from them in the past.

I have never purchased any of their AR15 stuff. CMMG use to carry DPMS (which I would NEVER recommend). They are now producing their own products, I have asked who makes their parts, and CMMG doesn't want to make that info public (which I can respect).

I choose not to buy their stuff because I want to know the who makes the parts.....and to be honest, I want to make sure that I'm not getting DPMS parts or parts from another "tier III" manufacturer. I'm not bashing CMMG in anyway, but if I don't know the orgin of the parts I won't buy them. I'm not trying to be an "AR Snob", but I use my guns as part of my profession, and I over the years I have seen guns from just about every company on the market. There are some companies I will buy from and others that I won't, based on my past experience. Remember that all AR15's are not built the same (materials, specs, quality control, etc, etc, etc). This is just my opinion based on my first hand experience. As always, your milage may vary.



Take care and stay safe

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:46:05 PM EDT
I can comment on the rifle manufactures that I own/sell.

RRA, Stag/CMT, LMT, Colt, Bushmaster, Superior Arms: All of very good qualty.

I go with Stag/CMT with all my personal builds. I recommend RRA to most. Some people are not familiar with Stag so they feel a bit uncomfortable about spending their $$$ on an unknown manufacturer to them. RRA IMO will be the best bang for your buck unless you go with Stag/CMT which will be even better.

Colt and Bushmaster are a bit expensive for me and most others. They are quality rifles, but I (and others) believe strongly that you can get top notch performance for less.

Although I am not extreamly familiar with Colt, I believe the "non Mil-spec" issues you may be refering to are the takedown pin size differences and hammer pin size differences. Both of these issues have been taken care of a while ago so any newer production rifle will not have these discrepancies. Although, like mentioned above, Colt is IMO to much $$$ for the rifle. I have heard others complain about Colt's lack of customer service.

Mixing manufacurer uppers and lowers is just fine in my experience as long as they are both of good quality. Rifles are mechanical so they will all have their malfunctions from time to time. PM means "preventative maintaince"----not "post mortum". Even the best rifles will go down if not taken care of.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:15:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
USMC03

I just spoke with Jeff from CMMG. What a very nice and informative guy. He allowed me 45 minutes of his time to any and all questions I had regarding his product. I've also done some research on this forum--and others--and have come away with a very positive attitude about their rifles. Have you had any experience with these rifles? Are they of high quality, reliable and accurate? Any info would be appreciated.

Mike.




Mike,

The guys at CMMG are good guys, I have purchased non-AR15 guns from them in the past.

I have never purchased any of their AR15 stuff. CMMG use to carry DPMS (which I would NEVER recommend). They are now producing their own products, I have asked who makes their parts, and CMMG doesn't want to make that info public (which I can respect).

I choose not to buy their stuff because I want to know the who makes the parts.....and to be honest, I want to make sure that I'm not getting DPMS parts or parts from another "tier III" manufacturer. I'm not bashing CMMG in anyway, but if I don't know the orgin of the parts I won't buy them. I'm not trying to be an "AR Snob", but I use my guns as part of my profession, and I over the years I have seen guns from just about every company on the market. There are some companies I will buy from and others that I won't, based on my past experience. Remember that all AR15's are not built the same (materials, specs, quality control, etc, etc, etc). This is just my opinion based on my first hand experience. As always, your milage may vary.



Take care and stay safe




So, do you know which parts that Stag uses? I didn't realize that there was such diversity in AR parts and components. Please help to guide me in the right direction so that I don't end up with "buyers remorse." Thanks again.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:42:43 PM EDT
Mike,


Re-read my first post after you read this, the first post may make more sence.

CMT / Stag produces their own parts. CMT is Contential Machine and Tool..... not to be confused with LMT which is Lewis Machine and Tool........For all intents and purposes CMT and Stag Arms are the same company.

CMT has been a "sub-contractor" for Colt for many years (ie. CMT builds certain parts directly for Colt, like uppers, lowers, carbine buffer tubes, etc, etc, etc.). CMT has made many of Colt's parts. CMT is now a sub-contractor for both Rock River Arms and Colt. In 2003 CMT started selling guns to the public under the company name "Stag Arms".

If you look at the big picture, when you are buying a RRA or a Colt, you are essencially buying a gun that started it's life in the CMT / Stag factory, then was sent to RRA or Colt and then RRA or Colt added some parts that they build "in house" or souce out (like barrels, RRA's 2 stage trigger, stocks, etc).



Hope this helps.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:15:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
Please help to guide me in the right direction so that I don't end up with "buyers remorse." Thanks again.

Mike.




The best advise I could give was this info written in the first post:


www.eaglefirearms.net in Brighton, CO. carries the COMPLETE Carbine lower for $215 (includes fire control group and 6 postion collaspable stock) and the COMPLETE M4 upper (no carry handle) for $429. (When the complete upper and complete lower arrive, all you have to do is put the upper receiver on the lower receiver and push in the 2 receiver pins and you have a gun that is ready to go to the range).

That is $644 (plus tax, shipping, and transfer fee....still under $700) for a COMPLETE (Stag/CMT) M4 carbine, that is pretty much the same thing as the Colt LE6920..... Excluding tax, shipping, FFL transfer fee, you can buy 2 Stag M4's for the price of the average LE6920 (average civilian price on a Colt 6920 is $1250 to $1350).


You can NOT beat the quality or the price. A COMPLETE M4 carbine for $644 ...... you can't even build a piece of shit parts gun for that.....It's a NO BRAINER.....there should be NO REASON for me to see another DMPS Upper / Colt lower, or Colt Upper / Olympic Lower, or Model 1 Sales Upper / Bushmaster Lower, or just a parts gun in general at a class ever again!!!

Take care

<­BR>

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:38:10 PM EDT
Well, guys, I bit the bullet. I bought a Colt 6400C, today. I will have it on Friday as it has to be shipped from Texas. I know it has the fixed stock and compensator as opposed to a FS. However, I already have a Vortex suppressor and a Magpul Clubfoot stock for it. What I do like about it is it's a Colt. And, the upper and lower are both marked M4. Of course it also has the RAS marks and the true M4 chamber cuts. I think I'm going to have the barrel cut to 14.5 and permamently affix the FS.
What do you guys suggest? Also, what are the best mags, thirty rounds, on the market? I'm open to any and all suggestions, remarks and comments.

Thank you very much to all of you who have provided me with the necessary information for my purchase.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:48:38 PM EDT
Just as long as you get USGI mags, you won't be disappointed. Steel ones are junk.

Expect to pay $12-$15 per mag. You'll want to buy them at least 10 at a time to get a volume discount. I think there is some mag info tacked near the top that you should read so you know what to look for when you buy. Green followers are a must!

Look on the EE for the best deals.

P.S. Colt never made their own mags. They were all subcontracted. Buying mags with "Colt" floorplates = more money that you had to spend for the same product.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:29:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By newbe:
Just as long as you get USGI mags, you won't be disappointed. Steel ones are junk.

Expect to pay $12-$15 per mag. You'll want to buy them at least 10 at a time to get a volume discount. I think there is some mag info tacked near the top that you should read so you know what to look for when you buy. Green followers are a must!

Look on the EE for the best deals.heir


Newbe, thanks for the info. I will definitely buy in volume. Do you know which, if any, contractor are better than others?

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:40:25 PM EDT
Buy a Colt 6700c............... can't go wrong.....
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:04:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 6:09:18 PM EDT by MDS1911]

Originally Posted By johnthreesixteen:
Buy a Colt 6700c............... can't go wrong.....



I bought a 6400C today. I absolutely love that rifle. I wanted a rifle that has M4 Written on the receiver. I won't have it 'til Thursday, though.
However, I did handle one today. And, after all, it's a Colt.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:05:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
Originally Posted By newbe:
Just as long as you get USGI mags, you won't be disappointed. Steel ones are junk.

Expect to pay $12-$15 per mag. You'll want to buy them at least 10 at a time to get a volume discount. I think there is some mag info tacked near the top that you should read so you know what to look for when you buy. Green followers are a must!

Look on the EE for the best deals.

P.S. Colt never made their own mags. They were all subcontracted. Buying mags with "Colt" floorplates = more money that you had to spend for the same product.



Newbe, thanks for the info. I will definitely buy in volume. Do you know which, if any, contractor are better than others?

Good mag manufacturers: Labelle, D&H Industries, or Okay (which made 'em for Colt if it matters).

Bravo Company is located in the EE. They should be at the top of this web page also. BC supports the AR15 site so it would be nice to purchase from them. They've also got premium customer service if you have any questions and keep very good prices.

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:32:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By newbe:

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
Originally Posted By newbe:
Just as long as you get USGI mags, you won't be disappointed. Steel ones are junk.

Expect to pay $12-$15 per mag. You'll want to buy them at least 10 at a time to get a volume discount. I think there is some mag info tacked near the top that you should read so you know what to look for when you buy. Green followers are a must!

Look on the EE for the best deals.heir


Newbe, thanks for the info. I will definitely buy in volume. Do you know which, if any, contractor are better than others?

Good mag manufacturers: Labelle, D&H Industries, or Okay (which made 'em for Colt if it matters).

Bravo Company is located in the EE. They should be at the top of this web page also. BC supports the AR15 site so it would be nice to purchase from them. They've also got premium customer service if you have any questions and keep very good prices.hr


Thanks again for the info. Merry Christmas.

Mike.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

CMT has been a "sub-contractor" for Colt for many years (ie. CMT builds certain parts directly for Colt, like uppers, lowers, carbine buffer tubes, etc, etc, etc.). CMT has made many of Colt's parts. CMT is now a sub-contractor for both Rock River Arms and Colt. In 2003 CMT started selling guns to the public under the company name "Stag Arms".



I have a question about this..........

In "Black Rifle II", there are photos of technicians machining lowers:
(caption below photo reads: "Lower manufacturing at Colt Defense, LLC is done on state of the art TOYODA horizontal machining centers, equipped with pallet changers. There are 24 forgings on the fixture"


This suggests to me that Colt is making their own lowers, and not relying on CMT or anyone else. There are additional photos and references to how Colt makes their barrels - in house.

Is the CMT relationship with Colt Manufacturing? Or as a sub-contractor who provides parts when production is high or behind?

I am not challenging you USMC03, I have heard the same thing many times, and often wondered what the story was
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 1:27:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 1:28:58 PM EDT by USMC03]

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By USMC03:

CMT has been a "sub-contractor" for Colt for many years (ie. CMT builds certain parts directly for Colt, like uppers, lowers, carbine buffer tubes, etc, etc, etc.). CMT has made many of Colt's parts. CMT is now a sub-contractor for both Rock River Arms and Colt. In 2003 CMT started selling guns to the public under the company name "Stag Arms".



I have a question about this..........

In "Black Rifle II", there are photos of technicians machining lowers:
(caption below photo reads: "Lower manufacturing at Colt Defense, LLC is done on state of the art TOYODA horizontal machining centers, equipped with pallet changers. There are 24 forgings on the fixture"

This suggests to me that Colt is making their own lowers, and not relying on CMT or anyone else. There are additional photos and references to how Colt makes their barrels - in house.

Is the CMT relationship with Colt Manufacturing? Or as a sub-contractor who provides parts when production is high or behind?

I am not challenging you USMC03, I have heard the same thing many times, and often wondered what the story was





Redfisher,


I'm not sure, I've only been told that CMT has been a long time sub for Colt and more recently Rock River Arms.

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:44:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MDS1911:
stretch415,

I'm definitely looking for an M4 version. I'd really like to have a Colt, as they are the originators along with Stoner, of course. However, I've heard that they are not Mil Spec. I'd like to try building one, however, I don't have the appropriate tools for the build. My brother is a Class 3 dealer so I can get wholesale pricing on whatever I need (not boasting, just stating), including complete rifles. What would you suggest?

Thanks again.

Mike.


Just toss this "mil spec" bs out the window. You're buying an AR15, not a M16 or M4. Just buy quality parts/brands and you will be fine.
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