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Posted: 12/13/2005 11:26:57 AM EDT
Iam building a gun and I noticed some kits doesn't offer forward assist .That is something i must have ,but is it really a big deal am not going to war or anything.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:00:14 PM EDT
It has its uses. For example, if you accidentally ride the carrier forward by holding on to the charging handle, instead of just releasing it, it could be that the bolt will not fully close. That's when you'll need that forward assist to force the bolt in. Otherwise you need to charge the weapon again and pick up the ejected cartridge. Not very convenient.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:02:23 PM EDT
Not needed on a target/plinker/varmint gun. I'd definately have one on any AR I intended to use to protect life and limb.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:35:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Not needed on a target/plinker/varmint gun. I'd definately have one on any AR I intended to use to protect life and limb.



+1 I've fired both varients in the military and can say first hand that the forward assist was needed several times! Of course, if you just plinking for fun and don't like the fa 'look', then I'd suggest you build one without it.

_________
Eagles may fly, but weasels don’t get sucked into jet engines!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:03:05 PM EDT
You should never force a cartridge into the chamber, not knowing what the obstruction is.

If you cycle the charging handle like a wuss, then you shouldn't own the gun.

Just imagine if you have had a case seperation, and the next round is loaded in behind it. Nine times out of ten, you pull the trigger and nothing. You don't use the assist, do you? No, you check the chamber, recock the hammer and chamber a fresh round. If the bolt doesn't seat right on the new round, then something might be wrong. If you're an idiot and hit the assist until the carrier is travels home, do you really want to pull the trigger on an unknown problem? You may end up with what's seen below.

That's my two cents worth.


Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:27:05 PM EDT
I concur with the above.

Ammo is cheap... just rack the charging handle and try again. No need to make things worse.

Now, what would call for the use of a forward assist that couldn't be cleared otherwise? I can't think of anything.

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:32:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zissou:
Now, what would call for the use of a forward assist that couldn't be cleared otherwise?



Uhh Chamber check for one..
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:42:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By zissou:
Now, what would call for the use of a forward assist that couldn't be cleared otherwise?



Uhh Chamber check for one..



I can think of two ways to make sure the weapon is loaded without ever using the forwards assist. One is to check the mag, the other is to push it home with a finger. I prefer #1.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:08:15 PM EDT
The chamber check - or press check as I've heard it called at "shooting schools" - is silly. Very silly. First, you can hear, feel a difference when a round is loaded, second, as someone else said, you can check your magazine if you feel the need to.

The forward assist is a dangerous thing.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:18:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zissou:
First, you can hear, feel a difference when a round is loaded,


BS I've had some magazines that were messed up and you couldn't tell when the round was loaded.


second, as someone else said, you can check your magazine if you feel the need to.

That's assuming you remembered to check which side the bullets were on and you remember it, then you have to pull the magazine from the rifle (I hope its seated right - you'll find out after you fire that round in the chamber). When I'm on the line my thoughts are on the training - I've found it much easier to to a chamber check. Insert pinky if it stops I'm good to go, if not the I've got a problem. It's the simplest method, and if a round is in the chamber I'm pretty sure the magazine is seated properly.


The forward assist is a dangerous thing.



Improper knowledge about it's use is dangerous. It's a tool - use it right and it's helpful, use it wrong and you can get into trouble.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:28:03 PM EDT
Not to get into a pissing match, but I've used the AR for a couple of years now, fired a few rounds from them, and even, from time-to-time tinkered with the innards... and I can tell when I chamber a round or not.

But, hey, folks, that's just me - and my experience. Take it for what it's worth.

I'm going to stand on record saying that forward assist is of no value - to me at least.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:37:44 PM EDT
If you need to chamber a round silently, the forward assist is necessary. It has it's uses, or the .gov wouldn't have ordered them that way. If a forward assist makes you wet the bed and wake up in cold sweats, then you should probably be using a bolt gun.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:39:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 2:39:32 PM EDT by eklikwhoa]
what kit doesnt offer a forward assist?

most of the kits and kit dealers i have seen always have forward assist uppers
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:45:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:
If you need to chamber a round silently, the forward assist is necessary.


Not at all. You can push forward on the bolt carrier with a finger to do the same thing. ALso, on many rifles, simply making sure that the charging handle is all the way home will ensure that the bolt goes into battery.


It has it's uses, or the .gov wouldn't have ordered them that way.


Thats a joke, right? The .gov ordered all their rifles with frigging A2 stocks that are too long if you're not dressed for Camp Perry and shooting that way too. Shows you how smart they are.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:06:00 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:20:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 3:23:18 PM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
If you need to chamber a round silently, the forward assist is necessary.


Not at all. You can push forward on the bolt carrier with a finger to do the same thing. ALso, on many rifles, simply making sure that the charging handle is all the way home will ensure that the bolt goes into battery.

In the dark with gloves????


It has it's uses, or the .gov wouldn't have ordered them that way.


Thats a joke, right? The .gov ordered all their rifles with frigging A2 stocks that are too long if you're not dressed for Camp Perry and shooting that way too. Shows you how smart they are.



Too long? I have three USMC expert badges that say the stock is just right, and I prefer it to be a tad longer myself.

I am not joking. Are you a practicing to be a: .......or did you forget you are using your regular account and not your account?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:42:30 PM EDT
The M16A2 stock IS too long for ME and I'm 6'5" - but with plates and soft armor, I'd like it to be shorter. And since we're on the subject, the M16A2 rear sight with it's CAMP PERRY adjustments is of no value for me. Ask the Canucks. The RA doesn't even train soliders how to use it.

Let's keep things cordial. This is an opinion sort-of-thing and I doubt that the US Government will look to AR15. com to decide whether or not to keep the FA, so we're just wasting our breath anyways.

Let's put out all the information we have, engage in friendly arguements, and let everyone decide want they want or feel they need.

I don't think that any number of shiny trinkets hanging from your shirt make you an expert on the AR or the FA. Don't resort to posting your CV here - that's just childish.

Now, let's be cordial.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:31:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wackypeacock:
You should never force a cartridge into the chamber, not knowing what the obstruction is.





"Never" is a strong term, if it came down to forcing home the bolt or being taken prisoner, tortured then beheaded...I think I'll take forcing the bolt closed everytime.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:43:38 PM EDT
Whether you believe in it or not, it won't hurt to have a FA on the rifle. And for a non-combat rifle, not having one is cool too.

I would like to point out, however, that unless we are all truly combat experts in every sense of the word, we shouldn't be second guessing what parts go on combat rifles.

Oh, and by the way, what does the "RA" have to do with Canadian Forces? They're called "Canadian Forces." The "Royal Army" is British. Don't let a Canuk hear you confuse the two; they get testy about that sort of thing.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:51:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By wildearp:
If you need to chamber a round silently, the forward assist is necessary.


Not at all. You can push forward on the bolt carrier with a finger to do the same thing. ALso, on many rifles, simply making sure that the charging handle is all the way home will ensure that the bolt goes into battery.

In the dark with gloves????


It has it's uses, or the .gov wouldn't have ordered them that way.


Thats a joke, right? The .gov ordered all their rifles with frigging A2 stocks that are too long if you're not dressed for Camp Perry and shooting that way too. Shows you how smart they are.



Too long? I have three USMC expert badges that say the stock is just right, and I prefer it to be a tad longer myself.

I am not joking. Are you a practicing to be a: .......or did you forget you are using your regular account and not your account?



The reason I have so many posts, is my lack of a troll account (or several).

Congratulations on your expert badges. But the KD range is not the real world. Can you adopt a proper (as taught by essentially all modern programs of instruction) fighting stance with an A2? I am 6 feet tall and even an A1 stock is too long for that. And yes, in the dark, with gloves, my IADs and such work fine, even without the forward assist. I can say that from experience. Of course, my IADs don't go by the name SPORTS.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:52:37 PM EDT
I like the option of the forward assist for the reasons stated previously, essentially after press check, which I also find useful, and for possible gentle persuasion. Just another tool, like paying attention to the feel as the round chambers. Ask me again in another 10,000 rounds.

Rick
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:00:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:
--Snip--Oh, and by the way, what does the "RA" have to do with Canadian Forces? They're called "Canadian Forces." The "Royal Army" is British. Don't let a Canuk hear you confuse the two; they get testy about that sort of thing.



I think he means Regular Army vs the Guard and Reserve.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:37:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:52:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 5:52:45 PM EDT by Matt_B]
A forward assist is completely unnecessary...until you need it and then it's indispensable.

I don't like the idea of owning a semi-auto rifle that doesn't have the ability to slam the bolt home (under stress) if it doesn't want to get there on its own.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:12:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:14:45 PM EDT by bobfried]
I've never used the FA on my personal AR's.

I have used it dozens of timed on my M16A2 and M4.

There is a difference between joe schmoe civilian that barely put 1k round a year through his semi and cleans it everytime than Joe private in the military. Wear and tear on a military weapon is brutal to say the least, how many of you have all the edges on your AR worn to the bare aluminum? Look at any military picture and you will see how worn some rifles are. There is a point in a rifle life when it is either too dirty, too dry, too old for the bolt to properly slam home and it is during those times that you need the forward assist.

If anyone here remembered there Basic Training they will also remember other people (or their own) A2's incapable of completely stripping the first round out of a loaded magazine and the need to slam the bolt home with the FA was a godsend. During FTX and excersices I have personally use the FA as the magazine was contaminated by dirt as I was rolling around in the muck. I have also had my rifle become so dirty whilst training in the South from the sheer amount of mud that was laying around and the only to chamber the first round was to use the FA. Sure I could have stopped right in the middle of nowhere as we were being attacked by Op For and clean my rifle.

You will probably never use the FA, but when you need it you'll be gald it is there. SOme say that they always keep their rifle clean and maintained properly and will never need the FA, in that case you need to do some harder/dirtier training.

Everything fail and when they do you will be glad to have that extra thingie that "does nothing."
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:20:40 PM EDT
Who's go the picture of the weatherman predicting a shitstorm, 'cause that's where this is headed, if it ain't already there.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:25:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:31:39 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
I don't rememeber the story all that well, so correct me if I am wrong. . . .
What about PVT Miller (I think that was his name). He was part of the convoy that got captured (with Jessica Lynch) in the early stages of OIF. His weapon (was probably too dirty) and jammed up. He shot several Iraqi soldiers who were running morters. He was forced to shoot his M16A2 by hitting the forward assist after every round was chambered in order to make the rifle fire. The forward assist saved the lives of himself and several other US troops. I think he received a silver star.



I presented this story in one of the previous shitstorms and had a Marine officer tell me it wasn't possible because this isn't something a soldier is trained to do, therefore he would never have been able to do this.

Believe whatever you want. Read the story, watch the interviews done by most of the major news series - Miller explains exactly what he was doing, slamming the FA with his palm to chamber a round. I didn't make this up.

Official reports range from seven to nine Iraqis killed by Pvt Miller, who was loading a single round, one at a time, using his FA to fully chamber the round. That whole ambush was a mess due to lax cleaning and maintenance of rifles by nearly all the soldiers involved. They were, after all, just support personnel and not "soldiers". It was the infamous Private Lynch Ambush.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:53:36 PM EDT
Well thanks for the info i was planing on geting a FA anyway iam not great on cleaning my guns so i will need it.Bushmaster does offer a carbon fiber 15 with no Fa and i dont like it.It just doesn't feel like a real gun.As for my post i didnt know i was going too open a can of worms but what the hell u made me laugh.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:59:19 AM EDT
While I've never "needed" to use the FA, I thumb it constantly.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:05:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:
While I've never "needed" to use the FA, I thumb it constantly.



Yeah, I thumb my forward assist constantly, too!

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:18:31 PM EDT
I've used it before. The only AR I would ever want with out it would more of a history piece than a shooter, and since I'm a shooter not a collecter that would never fly.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:24:11 PM EDT
I use the FA to close the bolt after I do a press check.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:34:41 AM EDT
I always try to be last to comment since I am new to the AR side (but at 62, not to the world or shooting) and I still learn much from this forum.

While the bolt recess was the "original" solution, it was found to be inadequate under stress and field conditions where hands and fingers were wet, muddy or otherwise slick. Not enough positive pressure could be applied to force the bolt closed. Ergo, the FA handle with the notches on the bolt.

Don't like it, don't use it. Need it and don't have it, problem! Yes, one could just rack the action only to find that the next round will also not quite chamber. Racking ones way through a magazine doesn't sound like the way to participate in a serious social discussion. Getting that one round in and the bolt into battery could be enough to clear the issue since the vigors of firing a round and having the gas system cycle the action imparts a lot more forces than can be externally applied.

My $.02 and I can offer change.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:21:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I presented this story in one of the previous shitstorms and had a Marine officer tell me it wasn't possible because this isn't something a soldier is trained to do, therefore he would never have been able to do this.


The speed of stupid never ceases to amaze me. I guess that O type never read the -10. It's pretty clear. Isn't it the "T" in SPORTS?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:31:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wackypeacock:
You should never force a cartridge into the chamber, not knowing what the obstruction is.


That is why they put the Observe in SPORTS.


If you cycle the charging handle like a wuss, then you shouldn't own the gun.


And are you now stating that's the only reason to have the FA?

You may end up with what's seen below.

i25.photobucket.com/albums/c90/kevatc/AR%20damage/Bolt-2.jpg
Funny that you post a pic of a catostrophic failure that was probably caused by an overcharge or incorrect powder causing a case failure as opposed to somebody firing a round following a case separation.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:01:57 AM EDT
m24shooter,

Brother you are wasting your time. The people who can't understand why a FA is still needed are the people who have never set foot outside of their safe little world. Their guns are toys, and may as well be launching rubberbands because cans and paper don't shoot back.


For people who don't can't grasp the real world uses of the FA from people here who actually have had to use it, go buy whatever you want. You aren't part of my squad, you won't ever back me up or patrol with any other shooter here, you don't matter.

EOFS.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:35:42 AM EDT
Stick, sad but true.

I haven't taken any incoming, but I spent a long time thinking about what might happen in such a situation; I spent my life as an Air Force NCO and expected to be sent places where other people's lives depended on me doing the right thing. I don't think I'd have been as useful or effective as I wanted to be, but I sure wasn't going to apply any "casual shooting" experience to real combat. That difference is, as you point out, lost on most "enthusiasts."

By the way, I hadn't even thought of "Regular Army" in the context of my above comments, as it looked very much like the sentence I was commenting on was exclusively about the Canadians...my bad if I was wrong.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:54:41 AM EDT
Understood Stick.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:00:21 AM EDT
I've never been in a situation where I have had to rely on my rifle for my life, but if that day comes, I know damn well I'll appreciate the presence of the forward assist.

Certain people seem to think the FA is pointless, and I say let them enjoy their slab sides. Enjoy pushing on that carrier when your hands have moisture on them or the carrier is hot. I'd rather simply push a button rather than take a time out to finger fuck the carrier.

The Lynch situation proves that there is a very good use for it under certain conditions. Stoppages do happen, and not all situations are so predictable.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:09:04 AM EDT
The designer of the M16 didn't think forward assists were necessary.

The Marines didn't want them on their rifles.

The last thing I want to do with a round that won't chamber is force it.

If it's really necessary to push the bolt forward, there's a cut-out in the bolt carrier for your thumb that serves the same purpose.

I spent twenty years as a Marine officer, and I own five AR's now - all of them slab-sides. I just have a thing about superfluous weight and protruberances.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:53:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 11:43:32 AM EDT by m24shooter]
I guess I can sum up what I've learned as: There is no room for improvement from the original design and designer. If you agree with the FA being there because a gov agency wanted it you're an idiot. If you disagree with the FA because another gov agency didn't want it, you're good to go. You are too stupid to reason out that if you have to literally bang on the FA to get a round to chamber there is probably a good reason not to shoot the weapon. The small shallow cut on the side of the bolt is perfectly capably of being manipulated while lubricated to the -10 specs in the cold, in the rain, under duress, in the dark, with heavy gloves, or with bare hands after you've just shot a significant number of rounds. The FA adds significant weight and poses a hazard to loose china in the immediate vicinity of the rifle. Previous instruction on weapons with exposed charging handles (M1 rifle, M1 carbine, M14) were incorrect as well when they suggested striking the rear of the charging handle to ensure that the bolt was closed. Real world examples of the FA being used to operate an otherwise non-functional weapon should be ignored, as no soldier has been trained this way and using the FA is dangerous. Getting shot at while holding an inoperative weapon is appearantly preferred to this state.
I bet Caligunner had no idea of just how much he was going to learn here when he posted his original thread.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:54:52 AM EDT


Ok for that the 'Forie" comment is forgiven.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 11:59:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
I guess I can sum up what I've learned as: There is no room for improvement from the original design and designer. If you agree with the FA being there because a gov agency wanted it you're an idiot. If you disagree with the FA because another gov agency didn't want it, you're good to go. You are too stupid to reason out that if you have to literally bang on the FA to get a round to chamber there is probably a good reason not to shoot the weapon. The small shallow cut on the side of the bolt is perfectly capably of being manipulated while lubricated to the -10 specs in the cold, in the rain, under duress, in the dark, with heavy gloves, or with bare hands after you've just shot a significant number of rounds. The FA adds significant weight and poses a hazard to loose china in the immediate vicinity of the rifle. Previous instruction on weapons with exposed charging handles (M1 rifle, M1 carbine, M14) were incorrect as well when they suggested striking the rear of the charging handle to ensure that the bolt was closed. Real world examples of the FA being used to operate an otherwise non-functional weapon should be ignored, as no soldier has been trained this way and using the FA is dangerous. Getting shot at while holding an inoperative weapon is appearantly preferred to this state.
I bet Caligunner had no idea of just how much he was going to learn here when he posted his original thread.



Hmmmm......................good summary.

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:46:52 PM EDT
I strongly suggest a forward assist. I carried both types in Vietnam and prefer the forward assist.
Not a substitute for cleaning but its nice to have when you need it.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 1:51:06 PM EDT
Just for the sake of asking when your checking the chamber instead of using the forward assist what happens if the round cooks off?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:08:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonD:
I strongly suggest a forward assist. I carried both types in Vietnam and prefer the forward assist.
Not a substitute for cleaning but its nice to have when you need it.



This sounds like a very good endorsement to me!

Forward Assist is there for a reason. If you have never used it, you never "used" your rifle.

Thanks DonD.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:20:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 4:21:19 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:35:10 PM EDT
Boy, some people get their panties in a bunch, don't they M24shooter? It's an opinion, and everyone has their own, and they all, well, you know how it ends. Why call people stupid?
For those of us who have been in real situations, in my limited experience, we don't all think it's needed.
I'll go ahead and recharge the rifle, instead of possibly forcing it and possibly destroying it. If you can't get it with thumb pressure, time to go to the next round. It's called training.
As far as the soldier who used it, well, thanks for it in his case. I thank him for his servive, but he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I've listened to him here in Kansas. Perhaps he was poorly trained, perhaps they forgot their training. Who is to say? All I know is that in Somalia my rifle was maintained and stayed clean even as I lived in a fighting position, and I NEVER had the luxury of staying in a hardened stucture. As a cake eating civilian, I don't need it at the range, and I don't need it in my Walter Mitty fantasis either.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:27:11 PM EDT
I have noticed the shit Storm has arrived lol I have learned alot anyway.I cant wait for my rifle kit to come in.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:26:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 3:29:32 PM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

The reason I have so many posts, is my lack of a troll account (or several).

Congratulations on your expert badges. But the KD range is not the real world. Can you adopt a proper (as taught by essentially all modern programs of instruction) fighting stance with an A2? I am 6 feet tall and even an A1 stock is too long for that. And yes, in the dark, with gloves, my IADs and such work fine, even without the forward assist. I can say that from experience. Of course, my IADs don't go by the name SPORTS.



I would say the M-4 collapsible stock, or other adjustable stock would be more ideal for adaptation, and the RRA M-4 stock is longer than than the A2, so I like it. And that is from experience too. Of course I did find my forward assist necessary....in the field.....and used it on several occasions, but, what would some dumb Marine know?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:51:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 4:56:23 PM EDT by magnum_99]
Well, I've seen plenty of rifles that benefitted from the FA.

Many rifles have bolts that won't close when dirty or when the outside temp is very cold (and it's dirty), and need a little goose from the FA to close the bolt fully.

Of course, only a moron would force a bolt where there is an obstruction--but the FA is not for that.

I like it, and wish my FAL had one without me having to mod it with Israeli parts.

The idea that you should never fire the rifle when the bolt won't fully close with the CH is simply fucking stupid, and anyone who suggests that has never actually used their rifle.

There, I said it.
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