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Posted: 12/12/2005 8:36:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 8:39:57 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Recently a German manufacture has garnered the acclaim of the operators in the field because of their newly developed piston driven M16 rifles, mostly in the short CQB-R and M4 format. A few local companies have been working feverishly on the concept which is not revolutionary but definitely an evolutionary. Two companies quickly come to mind, POF and LW. As we have heard many stories of the LW successes over the net the past few months, I have paid some interest in the other manufacture-POF.

POF has recently supplied company such DSA with FN FAL based gas piston uppers mate with their own rail system. As many of you might remember the Predator Rail design by the front man at POF was not so well received but after some serious trial by a local PD operator I can pronounce that the rail held up to some very serious beating and keep the sight on the rifle zeroed at all harsh condition. Not to rehash the old stories but looking forward to POF's improved M16 system, I arrived at this year's SAR show in Phoenix Arizona to have a little chat with Frank of the fame POF.

Frank was gracious enough to entertain me with his new offerings... and the most impressive is the low profile gas system mate with the Troy rail which I like better then this own design. I think with this design, Frank definitely has a little gem in his hands.

Close up of the low profile gas system, this is not as compact as the LW system, but POF does offer an adjustable gas regulator add to the harsh environment survivability, and the abilities to pop of a NATO std. rifle grenade.


The entire rifle with the cool looking POF pictogram lower.



Now here comes something quit interesting. a nickel interior on the POF lower, I did not know any of this might be over kill since the gas piston is supposed to keep the gun very clean, an addition of a nickel interior would be something not really necessary. Although the nickel would keep the gun from getting too dirty and add some lube to the overall operation. The long term wear of this finish will be something to be determined. I do have a NP3 finished AR has lasted thousands of rounds shot and still looking good and the NP3 does make the interior of that direct gas AR a cinch to clean. so the double dose of gas piston and nickel finish would probably in theory give this AR an unbeatable reliability. The finish is beautifully done and it does not show any nickel reflection on the exterior.

Also in the back ground you can see the make up of the POF gas piston.
Another look of the nickel interior


This setup is for basic M4 handguards


two different configurations with the standard M4 handguard version exposed.

now some might notice a slight different looking front sight. This is Frank's new design detachable front sight. it has a nice ramped rear with a nice hood aperture. I tried it a little bit at this weekend's shoot but did not have too much time on giving a firm answer on the design. I will be hitting the range some more next weekend and will give the new front sight a run for its money. Initial impression is the sight is big, but the ramp plus the hood makes for a fast target acquisition.

Last but not least is their new long range tool. This new rifle has an 18.5 Mike Rock Barrel, a slightly modified POF rifle rail system, and Frank said this puppy is good , I did not have the chance to shoot this rifle but Frank’s SPR is a much lighter gun then my original SPR using a Mike Rock barrel. The weight reduction is accomplished by his flutes, his 14.5 inch barrel with heavy profile behind the gas block is only 2oz heavier then the std profile M4 barrel by Colt, so you can see the weight difference between his SPR and the original SPR.


I am working out details with Frank to receive a POF upper for testing in the very near future. I will give a more detailed range report on the low profile upper with nickel finish. stay tune.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:31:56 AM EDT
Great pics, thanks!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 1:39:36 AM EDT
Thanks for sharing. Lots of interesting things happening in the AR world nowadays.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:44:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 10:31:06 AM EDT by NewbHunter]
Chen,

Can you clarify this? The first picture shows a Troy rail system. I was under the impression that the POF gas system would only work with the POF rail system or with their own standard handguards. Did they redesign it so that it would fit with other aftermarket railed handguards? If so, which ones will fit? Thanks!

ETA: Another thing I wonder is if it is available with a one piece fixed front sight. I see that there is a railed gas block that they attach a fixed front sight to, but if it were my gun I would feel more secure with an all one piece FSB, like a standard FSB. Of course, my worries may be unfounded once more reliability testing is done. I look forward to hearing more about that front sight setup when you get more time.

I am just not a big fan of flip front sights personally.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:22:32 AM EDT
Is this system close to a HK 416 style upper?



Looks like a nice piece. I like the idea of a 18" barrel to add some fps over a M4 style.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:40:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 9:43:06 AM EDT by Green0]
I love that nickle plating-- That's pretty impressive--

If it fits under a Troy rail system isn't it technically better than the HK system that needs a higher upper receiver rail?

Those are some aggressive flutes-- not like BM's barely noticeable weight reduction.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:31:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:
Chen,

Can you clarify this? The first picture shows a Troy rail system. I was under the impression that the POF gas system would only work with the POF rail system or with their own standard handguards. Did they redesign it so that it would fit with other aftermarket railed handguards? If so, which ones will fit? Thanks!



It is still prototype stage and I will give a better insight to this new developement in the near future when I receive a test unit.

In my opinion, this is one neat little system which i had a look of it at last year's shot show. now that POF is full bore behind the development, I think we will soon see a production veriosn of it.

I like it better then LW in a way is the gas regulator is a proven system. much like the highly developed HK system, there is a regulator where as teh LW system is just a simple piston design. of course the Lw clan will soon jump in and porbably correct my statement since they have a better in depth knowledge of their system.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:45:26 AM EDT
... and are they working up a 6.8 SPC version?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 11:17:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:
Chen,

Can you clarify this? The first picture shows a Troy rail system. I was under the impression that the POF gas system would only work with the POF rail system or with their own standard handguards. Did they redesign it so that it would fit with other aftermarket railed handguards? If so, which ones will fit? Thanks!



It is still prototype stage and I will give a better insight to this new developement in the near future when I receive a test unit.

In my opinion, this is one neat little system which i had a look of it at last year's shot show. now that POF is full bore behind the development, I think we will soon see a production veriosn of it.

I like it better then LW in a way is the gas regulator is a proven system. much like the highly developed HK system, there is a regulator where as teh LW system is just a simple piston design. of course the Lw clan will soon jump in and porbably correct my statement since they have a better in depth knowledge of their system.



Great. Thanks for the info. I look forward to hearing more details as they become available.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 12:03:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 12:06:59 PM EDT by Humminbird]

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
I like it better then LW in a way is the gas regulator is a proven system. much like the highly developed HK system, there is a regulator where as teh LW system is just a simple piston design. of course the Lw clan will soon jump in and porbably correct my statement since they have a better in depth knowledge of their system.



The LW system is self-regulating. If there is more resistance (dirt or what ever), the pressure will continue to rise until the resistance is overcome. It has it's limitations, of course.

I don't mean to hi-jack, just wanted to clarify.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:06:53 PM EDT
"of course the Lw clan will soon jump in and porbably correct my statement since they have a better in depth knowledge of their system."

I wouldn't doubt it. Look at what happened when I asked for everyone's opinion BUT THEIRS
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 2:53:05 PM EDT
Im reallllllly liking that troy rail system on there.

If they make the upper barrel 4150 with chrome and a 1/7 with a vortex as an option minus the flutes, I know what my next upper is going to be, and its going to replace my current M4 as my go to gun.

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 3:43:13 PM EDT
If the Troy rail fits then why wouldn't any other?

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:50:30 PM EDT
Is the interior REALLY nickled? Why nickle instead of hard chrome?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:38:59 PM EDT
tagorama.

I have to POF lowers and I love them to death. I really want a POF upper sometime soon.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:16:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ian187:
If the Troy rail fits then why wouldn't any other?




The Troy rail system in the picture is a prototype. There is a slight difference, well one that I know of, to the Troy rail system. I think other manufactures will have to design there system to fit POF uppers. I hope the production version comes out soon. I like both the carbine and MRF version.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:54:38 AM EDT
This is very interesting me- I will have to do more reading on this.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:00:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 7:05:15 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Is the interior REALLY nickled? Why nickle instead of hard chrome?



Because hard chrome would be inferior in that application would be my first guess. Second guess is to do hard chrome right in that application it would have to be on top of the nickle and they didnt feel that was necessary.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:04:02 AM EDT
Because the LW is self regulated you can attach a suppressor and never mess with the piston system. With the POF you must disassemble and reassemble the piston when you add or remove a suppressor. The POF is louder than DI with a suppressor and LW is quieter with a suppressor than DI.

How much for one of those nickled uppers?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:01:15 AM EDT
At Shot Show 2005 didnt troy debut their "own" piston upper with the Troy rails. Someone mentioned it was done in concert with POF. Anybody remember this?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:06:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Because the LW is self regulated you can attach a suppressor and never mess with the piston system. With the POF you must disassemble and reassemble the piston when you add or remove a suppressor. The POF is louder than DI with a suppressor and LW is quieter with a suppressor than DI.

How much for one of those nickled uppers?



Can you explain this in more detail? I plan on building an SBR that I would like to have a quick detatch suppressor for. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with the piston system everytime I took it off. Why would you have to do this with the POF system? How do you know that it would be louder than DI and the LW would be quieter than DI? Have you tested it or seen tests posted somewhere?

I'm still not even sure I want to go with a gas piston for my SBR, rather than just DI, but if I do, I want to make sure this stuff is all worked out before I buy. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:12:59 AM EDT
You have to flip the piston thingy in the front on POF and reinstall and yes it has been tested LW was quieter by 5 db. Testing done by Mr Silvers of silencertests.com
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:11:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Trey-W:
At Shot Show 2005 didnt troy debut their "own" piston upper with the Troy rails. Someone mentioned it was done in concert with POF. Anybody remember this?



I think Troy did not have the resources to run with it so POF took it and kept on developing it and the low profile system is what you see today is the result.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:10:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
You have to flip the piston thingy in the front on POF and reinstall and yes it has been tested LW was quieter by 5 db. Testing done by Mr Silvers of silencertests.com


Flipping the piston will take you all of about 30 seconds. Not hard at all and should not be considered much of an issue.
Im willing to bet that the POF will shoot through a silencer with the piston in either way. I have no proof of it but trust me it will.
Im very impressed with all of the pistons out there but the POF is robust and has yet to fail me with any ammo. It runs very clean!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:46:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Because the LW is self regulated you can attach a suppressor and never mess with the piston system. With the POF you must disassemble and reassemble the piston when you add or remove a suppressor. The POF is louder than DI with a suppressor and LW is quieter with a suppressor than DI.

How much for one of those nickled uppers?



Can you explain this in more detail? I plan on building an SBR that I would like to have a quick detatch suppressor for. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with the piston system everytime I took it off. Why would you have to do this with the POF system? How do you know that it would be louder than DI and the LW would be quieter than DI? Have you tested it or seen tests posted somewhere?

I'm still not even sure I want to go with a gas piston for my SBR, rather than just DI, but if I do, I want to make sure this stuff is all worked out before I buy. Thanks.



this might help you out a little,,,this is a post of mine from another POF thread,,,

i just got my 11.5" POF upper today. i also have a m4 2000 can and will be shooting it tomorrow. what really sucks is the short barrels like the 11.5" dont leave enough room to change the piston around when the AAC flash hider for the m4 2000 is installed.

as for piston rifles running cleaner, well, my krink gets kinda filthy when running the suppressor too. its just part of the game whe using cans.

i can see a dremel tool in its future.


Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:12:35 PM EDT
What type or brand of Buttstock is that one with the adjustable cheek piece and buttpad?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:29:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mdripley:
What type or brand of Buttstock is that one with the adjustable cheek piece and buttpad?



That's the Magpul PRS stock. Got one last mont (pre-production) and love it. It should be out for retail now. Check their site or your dealers.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:36:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 7:38:31 PM EDT by captrichardson]
For more info on the PRS:
PRS


On the POF - come on Frank! you have got to stop teasing us with the rifle length system stuff. PLEASE make it happen like yesterday. While I am sure the 11.5" - 16" are flying out the door with the CQB folks, please don't forget that us long range precission types are chomping at the bit for the 18"-24" versions. Piston Systems = YES! Gas Systems = NO!

On second thought forget that I said that, my wife and my bank account will thank you if you don't come out with the 18"-24" versions! Got to build an 18" version, a 24" version, man this is going to get expensive.

Thanks,
"Capt Richardson"
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:56:16 PM EDT
Why does that 416 have a tube sticking out the front of the regulator and generally getting in the way? It doesn't appear on the other guns picced.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:16:50 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:32:11 PM EDT
OK Simon. It is the piston partially removed is all. Demonstrating the AAC FH giving some trouble. Some quick dremel time and she should work great.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:48:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:49:53 PM EDT by SimonTan]
Does that mean the piston moves out forward? I am confused. Surely the piston goes BACK towards the receiver and not forward. V CONFUSED now.

OK.....now I get iy. The darned thing gets int he way of the piston being removed for disassembly etc.

Sorry.....real slow today.
Simon
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:46:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_h:

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Because the LW is self regulated you can attach a suppressor and never mess with the piston system. With the POF you must disassemble and reassemble the piston when you add or remove a suppressor. The POF is louder than DI with a suppressor and LW is quieter with a suppressor than DI.

How much for one of those nickled uppers?



Can you explain this in more detail? I plan on building an SBR that I would like to have a quick detatch suppressor for. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with the piston system everytime I took it off. Why would you have to do this with the POF system? How do you know that it would be louder than DI and the LW would be quieter than DI? Have you tested it or seen tests posted somewhere?

I'm still not even sure I want to go with a gas piston for my SBR, rather than just DI, but if I do, I want to make sure this stuff is all worked out before I buy. Thanks.



this might help you out a little,,,this is a post of mine from another POF thread,,,

i just got my 11.5" POF upper today. i also have a m4 2000 can and will be shooting it tomorrow. what really sucks is the short barrels like the 11.5" dont leave enough room to change the piston around when the AAC flash hider for the m4 2000 is installed.

as for piston rifles running cleaner, well, my krink gets kinda filthy when running the suppressor too. its just part of the game whe using cans.

i can see a dremel tool in its future.
img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/827623/115POF.jpg




Thanks a lot for the picture. I appreciate it. You'll have to let me know how the can works out on that system once you go at it with the dremel.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:17:54 AM EDT
Mr. H, hey, you still out there? Can you give us a few more pix of that new front sight from a couple different angles so we can see how it looks overall, as well as some details? Thanks.

John
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 9:22:13 AM EDT
Chen,

interesting post , thanks for sharing,

PP out
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:08:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 7:19:58 PM EDT by mr_h]
range report; thursday moring, 35 degrees

shot the POF upper for the first time today. the first 8 rounds fired went fine. then i attached the silencer and fired about 8 more rounds with no problems. after that the shit started.

to make a long painfull story short, the gas piston that you see in the picture above, was binding up in the gas tube at the rear most position. it was preventing the piston and push rod from returning home. that in turn prevented the bolt from closing.

i removed the piston and push rod and rolled the gas piston on a flat surface and could see a ever so slight hump in it. in addition to that, when the piston was installed i could get it to move freely IF i rotated it to a certain spot. but i could also get it to bind if i rotated it to another spot.

so in short, i can't tell if the piston got warped or the tube is bent and needless to say its going back to POF today.

other than that, its pretty cool while it worked! cycling was nice and smooth,,,,,

on the notion that piston type rifle will run cleaner when using a suppressor; they do run a little cleaner obviously since there is no dumping gas on the bolt but you still have the back blast down the barrel and that will still leave crap on the bolt.

the nice part is though you can wipe it off with a rag real easy since the bolt didn't have all that extra oil that i normally run in a DI ar15.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:11:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
Mr. H, hey, you still out there? Can you give us a few more pix of that new front sight from a couple different angles so we can see how it looks overall, as well as some details? Thanks.

John



as soon as i get the rifle back, i'll take some more pics. i shipped it back today to get it fixed, hopefully. frank seems like a great guy, from a customers stand point, and he was always there to answer the phone when i called about the problem.

the issues seems pretty straight forward so it shouldn't be an issue.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:19:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:

Originally Posted By mr_h:

Originally Posted By NewbHunter:

Originally Posted By DevL:
Because the LW is self regulated you can attach a suppressor and never mess with the piston system. With the POF you must disassemble and reassemble the piston when you add or remove a suppressor. The POF is louder than DI with a suppressor and LW is quieter with a suppressor than DI.

How much for one of those nickled uppers?



Can you explain this in more detail? I plan on building an SBR that I would like to have a quick detatch suppressor for. I certainly wouldn't want to mess with the piston system everytime I took it off. Why would you have to do this with the POF system? How do you know that it would be louder than DI and the LW would be quieter than DI? Have you tested it or seen tests posted somewhere?

I'm still not even sure I want to go with a gas piston for my SBR, rather than just DI, but if I do, I want to make sure this stuff is all worked out before I buy. Thanks.



this might help you out a little,,,this is a post of mine from another POF thread,,,

i just got my 11.5" POF upper today. i also have a m4 2000 can and will be shooting it tomorrow. what really sucks is the short barrels like the 11.5" dont leave enough room to change the piston around when the AAC flash hider for the m4 2000 is installed.

as for piston rifles running cleaner, well, my krink gets kinda filthy when running the suppressor too. its just part of the game whe using cans.

i can see a dremel tool in its future.
img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/827623/115POF.jpg




Thanks a lot for the picture. I appreciate it. You'll have to let me know how the can works out on that system once you go at it with the dremel.



other than the piston binding up, the upper didn't seem to care which way the piston was installed. there is a small hole end and a large hole end in the piston and it would cycle completly when installed either direction.

more to come later.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:08:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 10:30:51 AM EDT by mr_h]
WELL, I GOT MY UPPER BACK FROM pof YESTERDAY AND TOOK IT TO the range this morning. ran 180 rounds thru it with no problems. half of those fired were with a suppressor and using the standard gas setting.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:35:12 AM EDT
Hey SMGLee,

Any updates since the original post?

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:20:50 PM EDT
I will own one of these.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 1:48:48 PM EDT
I want one so frickin bad. when can we expect the longer versions?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 2:53:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 2:59:00 PM EDT by Jservis]
"... and are they working up a 6.8 SPC version?"

If it takes standard barrels all you would need is that and a bolt. I don't know if their bolt is any different but i would think you could install a 6.8 bolt into their carrier. correct me if im wrong. but that would be sweet.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:14:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jservis:
"... and are they working up a 6.8 SPC version?"

If it takes standard barrels all you would need is that and a bolt. I don't know if their bolt is any different but i would think you could install a 6.8 bolt into their carrier. correct me if im wrong. but that would be sweet.



They are working on a 6.5 Grendel version. I think 6.8 is further down the road...

TS
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:46:13 PM EDT
Do you think you just bent the system one of the times you removed it or when it was being removed by someone else? I can't imagine it's something you are going to ever need to remove much, is it?

I'm one of the people who thought the predator looked like the cat's ass as opposed to the cat's meow. Now this first upper in the first picture really looks slick. I am not one for fluting, but it seems to fit. What type of FS is that? Is that a BiLock? It just seems to have a lot of meat in the area with the wrench flats...

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:42:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_h:
WELL, I GOT MY UPPER BACK FROM pof YESTERDAY AND TOOK IT TO the range this morning. ran 180 rounds thru it with no problems. half of those fired were with a suppressor and using the standard gas setting.




So it just is over gassed then when the suppressor is attached correct? Did you notice increased recoil witht he more open gas setting?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:10:01 PM EDT
So when can we buy one?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:24:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:06:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KNIGHTENFORCER:
Interesting reading:
www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote54.htm



Yeah well if they would have done the test between a FN-FAl rather than a M-14 the results would have been reversed.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:09:00 AM EDT
blah blah blah

That's their official statement on why gas piston uppers are no good. We've heard it already.

I understand that even with the teenie tiny gas pistons in these new systems and the very small and lightweight operating rods that there is still SOME added moment above the centerline of the bore of the rifle but it is very negligible.

I'd rather take that little extra moving mass above the barrel for the cleanliness the piston offers. I plan on supressing my AR15 so a piston system would keep me from having to buy a gas buster as well...

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:53:49 AM EDT
LOL, that link is old...I just want to see how you guys react to it ,haha. Seriously though, I almost ordered an upper from POF, but they told me about 6-8 weeks for production. I'll prob wait til the price drops a bit.
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