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Posted: 12/6/2005 12:32:05 PM EDT
Do any of you have this? Does it make a difference?
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 12:37:39 PM EDT
It is a number of mods, many of which people have had done by others. Yes, it is worth it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:16:13 AM EDT
A couple of SWAT guys I know won't carry an AR without having it done. They swear by it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:19:00 AM EDT
Yes. I've gotten it on all of my Colts. . . .
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:07:25 AM EDT
Yup.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:46:01 AM EDT
I have 3 Colt 6920's that I've gotten from S.A.W. All 3 have had Ken Elmore's reliability upgrade. All 3 guns are EXTREEMLY reliable.



Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:49:11 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:49:46 AM EDT
Link? Anyone?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:58:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By quijanos:
Link? Anyone?





Here is the link, scroll down a little.........www.specializedarmament.com/jsps/quantity.jsp?field=Special&value=S



And Yes it is worth it
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:37:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 12:35:01 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
I got this from the SAW website:

RELIABILITY PACKAGE - COLT AR-15/M16/M4 $150

THIS SMALL GROUP OF PROPRIETARY MODIFICATIONS AND UPGRADED PARTS WAS DESIGNED TO ENSURE FLAWLESS OPERATION UNDER ADVERSE CONDITIONS AND TO ALLOW THE SYSTEM TO PERFORM AT ITS OPTIMUM.
THE PACKAGE INCLUDES:

4 TO 6 BARREL MODIFICATIONS (DEPENDING ON BARREL TYPE)
3 GAS SYSTEM MODIFICATIONS
2 BOLT GROUP MODIFICATIONS
AND A NEW BUFFER ASSEMBLY


I wonder what these mods really mean?

(1.)"4 TO 6 BARREL MODIFICATIONS (DEPENDING ON BARREL TYPE)" = ? Open up the chamber, maybe a polish job? After that I have no idea.
(2.)"3 GAS SYSTEM MODIFICATIONS" = ? Check FSB/gas port alignment? New gas tube?
(3.) "2 BOLT GROUP MODIFICATIONS" = HD extractor spring/o-ring or black insert?
(4.) "NEW BUFFER ASSEMBLY" = heavy buffer?

Whatever they are I know and trust several guys who swear by the SAW reliability package, so it must work.


Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:30:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 12:31:05 PM EDT by AcidGambit]
I have no doubt that SAW is worthy of their rep. But, I sort of have a problem paying for something w/o knowing what they actually do !?! and that is in now way ment as a knock against SAW.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:50:58 PM EDT
That's the question.

Aside from anecdotal testimony, how could we know (quantifiable results) the mods are effective, even if we knew what the mods were?

Any before and after data or other comparables?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 1:07:11 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 1:14:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 1:19:36 PM EDT by _DR]
Sand cuts in the Bolt Carrier à la L1A1 maybe?

I could go for that.

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 1:34:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
I have no doubt that SAW is worthy of their rep. But, I sort of have a problem paying for something w/o knowing what they actually do !?! and that is in now way ment as a knock against SAW.




I asked Tina Elmore (Ken Elmore's wife) what the mods were and she told me that they were Ken's secret.

I have talked to those that are in the know, and in my opinion the reliability upgrade is worth the money.....Your milage may vary



Link Posted: 12/7/2005 1:49:30 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:27:08 PM EDT
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if it must be kept a secret then the mods are probably not worth the money. That is not to say that the mods don't work, just that it is probably something that anyone could do on their own for less or for free.

On a side note, I don't have a problem keeping my guns running 100% so I have no need for such an "upgrade."



Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:28:40 PM EDT
Why? We all bought Col Sander's secret recipe every sunday for decades!

That was worth it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:35:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By James16688:
That's the question.

Aside from anecdotal testimony, how could we know (quantifiable results) the mods are effective, even if we knew what the mods were?

Any before and after data or other comparables?



Some of us have a pretty good idea (though not full knowledge) of what the package is. Things like increased extractor spring pressure and a heavier buffer are a good idea for most guns anyway, when you really get down to it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:59:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
I have no doubt that SAW is worthy of their rep. But, I sort of have a problem paying for something w/o knowing what they actually do !?! and that is in now way ment as a knock against SAW.




I asked Tina Elmore (Ken Elmore's wife) what the mods were and she told me that they were Ken's secret.

I have talked to those that are in the know, and in my opinion the reliability upgrade is worth the money.....Your milage may vary






Although I initially shared AcidGambit's concerns, I hold your opinion in high regard Jeff and as such, trust your judgement.

Thanks for clearing that up Jeff.

Take care and may you and yours have a happy holidays.

Regards,

Justin
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:45:05 PM EDT
I took two armorer classes from Ken. The man knows his stuff.

SF
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 10:04:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By a38337:
I took two armorer classes from Ken. The man knows his stuff.

SF



Does he share the secret recipe in the class?
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:05:11 AM EDT
No, he didn't come right out and say it, but from other things he talked about regarding the AR15 family, I would guess that the package includes

A SAW produced HD extractor spring (they are excellent, by the way, as are their "enhanced" magazine springs).

H3 buffer (H2/H3 not really needed unless you your selector switch rotates 180 degrees instead of the usual 90 degrees).

Type 1 .170 hammer

No idea as to the barrel and gas system mods.

SF

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 5:46:23 AM EDT
The feedramps are enhanced as well, and I'm assuming the gas port is opened up somewhat.

If you don't feel the RP is worth it, don't get it. After doing my homework I decided to order an upper with the RP. Reliability is king, and I wanted the king shit.

The RP includes a heavy buffer, HD springs, black extractor buffer. I believe Ken Elmore keeps some of the RP proprietary to avoid copycats. I can respect that.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 8:19:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By a38337:


H3 buffer (H2/H3 not really needed unless you your selector switch rotates 180 degrees instead of the usual 90 degrees).




WRONG
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 12:27:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Does he share the secret recipe in the class?




No.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 1:56:36 PM EDT
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:49:11 PM EDT
I'm with Mongo. No doubt about the man or his package, but most reliability will come from the End User (That's You!!) and understanding your weapon and it' s fuction and using good quality parts and keeping a good log book on your weapon and keeping up with the correct and proper maint at the correct intervals.

Really no different then taking care of my truck.

I can't and won't buy anything on the premise that "Trust me..it's all good" But I respect Jeff's Opinion. if it's something you "feel" you need. then it sounds like the place to get it.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:40:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 6:46:30 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.



I would concede that you could probably do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost.
Being a machinist by trade, but many of us would not attempt such things. I will happy screw in, bolt on and assemble parts that are made to a specified dimension, that i know will fit nicely, but when it comes to altering things like gas ports and changing things in an arbitrary way, no way would I attempt this.

Cutting feed ramps might be easy for you, but I wouldn't try it. I'd likely end up with a butchered barrel extension that wouldn't feed at all.

SAW is expensive, but they have stuff you just don't see anywhere else. Nobody else sells Colt LE stripped and complete lower receivers you can build on.

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:47:06 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 8:33:37 PM EDT
To Scottyran,

You've had problems with bolt bounce in Semi-only guns, or are you referring to some other benefit of the heavier buffers?

SF

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 11:27:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 5:48:19 AM EDT by IPSC_GUY]
Here is the thing, when a Gunsmith won't tell you exactly what he is doing to your weapon and why he feels it is necessary, I will not have them work on my guns regardless of his reputation. I have a Remington 700 that I call “Patience” because the gunsmith who built it was / is convinced he knows more about what happens in a precision rifle than I or any other owner could or should know. It has as close to zero tolerance between the bolt face and the barrel as is possible and originally it was completely bedded, and by completely bedded I mean every metal surface in the gun was bedded to the stock. He was and is convinced that free floating is a joke. The end result was a rifle that for about five rounds would hold a good group till it got warm.

His reaction? You don’t need to shoot more than 5 rounds in a row with a tactical rifle, the fight should be over on one or two… I am not kidding here. I wound up having to take the rifle back and have another gunsmith finish the project.

SOOOOO back to my earlier statement “When a Gunsmith won't tell you exactly what he is doing to your weapon and why he feels it is necessary I will not have them work on my guns.”

My bet is here that these improvements are probably very good but also easily duplicated and this gunsmith simply wishes to hold onto his information. If I were looking to make my rifle more reliable than it already is I would not send it to these cats till I found out what these mods are.

Now the Sand Cuts in a Bolt Carrier is an intereting idea...

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA


Link Posted: 12/9/2005 1:37:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
I have 3 Colt 6920's that I've gotten from S.A.W. All 3 have had Ken Elmore's reliability upgrade. All 3 guns are EXTREEMLY reliable.




Were they not reliable to start off with?
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 2:21:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I got this from the SAW website:

RELIABILITY PACKAGE - COLT AR-15/M16/M4 $150

THIS SMALL GROUP OF PROPRIETARY MODIFICATIONS AND UPGRADED PARTS WAS DESIGNED TO ENSURE FLAWLESS OPERATION UNDER ADVERSE CONDITIONS AND TO ALLOW THE SYSTEM TO PERFORM AT ITS OPTIMUM.
THE PACKAGE INCLUDES:

4 TO 6 BARREL MODIFICATIONS (DEPENDING ON BARREL TYPE)
3 GAS SYSTEM MODIFICATIONS
2 BOLT GROUP MODIFICATIONS
AND A NEW BUFFER ASSEMBLY


I wonder what these mods really mean?

(1.)"4 TO 6 BARREL MODIFICATIONS (DEPENDING ON BARREL TYPE)" = ? Open up the chamber, maybe a polish job? After that I have no idea.
(2.)"3 GAS SYSTEM MODIFICATIONS" = ? Check FSB/gas port alignment? New gas tube?
(3.) "2 BOLT GROUP MODIFICATIONS" = HD extractor spring/o-ring or black insert?
(4.) "NEW BUFFER ASSEMBLY" = heavy buffer?

Whatever they are I know and trust several guys who swear by the SAW reliability package, so it must work.





with so many "Modifications" (between 9 and 11 of them) plus new buffer, and ONLY $150 suggests the work is largely inspection, re-torqueing, polish, etc.

In other words, "Labor"

At only $150, I suspect you are paying for his decades of experience as a the top Colt Armorer anywhere.

And if so, it is a bargain.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 3:24:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By USMC03:
I have 3 Colt 6920's that I've gotten from S.A.W. All 3 have had Ken Elmore's reliability upgrade. All 3 guns are EXTREEMLY reliable.




Were they not reliable to start off with?




I purchased all 3 guns new and had the reliability upgrade done prior to being sent to me. If you purchase a gun through SAW the upgrade is only $100.

If I remember correctly for the 6920, the upgrade, shipping, etc. my total price was $1,054 per gun.

I have talked to 2 other cops who have shot 6920's (with an without the upgrade) side by side and both stated that they were able to tell a difference between the two guns. (I can't remember the conversations as to the differences that were noted)

All the 6920's that I've had experience with have been reliable. My 6920's are my duty / SWAT guns, so to pay the extra money to have the nation's top Colt Armorer do a reliability package on the gun is worth the extra money. Your milage may vary.

Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:00:41 AM EDT
I agree with Mongo's assesment on this one.

Though I would still like to know exactly what is being done to the gas system and barrel extension lugs.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:22:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 8:14:56 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY:


Now the Sand Cuts in a Bolt Carrier is an intereting idea...

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA



Always wondered why they never did them on an AR. Maybe if I send A BC to Mongo001 he cold come up with something
ETA- He doesn't think it would fly - I'm convinced it could make a difference in a sand environment.
Will do a poll, and see if I can get volunteers who live in a sandy environment to test it in semi and full auto - I'll have to provide the uppers for a test. If it was on the right arm of the free world, it might be good enough for the mouse gun.


Seriously, the sand cuts on the L1A1 arose out of necessity and from what I have read, they work to keep the weapon working with lots of crud in it. Considering tight M16/AR tolerances, seems like a grand idea. May have to pursue this...rainy day project.

Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:31:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.




You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:55:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.


You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy



+1
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:16:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY:


Now the Sand Cuts in a Bolt Carrier is an intereting idea...

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA



Always wondered why they never did them on an AR. Maybe if I send A BC to Mongo001 he cold come up with something, patent it and we could get rich!

Seriously, the sand cuts on the L1A1 arose out of necessity and from what I have read, they work to keep the weapon working with lots of crud in it. Considering tight M16/AR tolerances, seems like a grand idea. May have to pursue this...

tinypic.com/ibxtuq.jpg



I've never heard of that before. Sounds pretty interesting.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:17:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 7:20:08 AM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.




You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy



C'mon, his prices are sky high, that's all I'm saying. I get what I want in Colt parts for at least a third of his advertised prices, sometimes half.

Always extremes, nobody can be sensible.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:27:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.




You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy



C'mon, his prices are sky high, that's all I'm saying. I get what I want in Colt parts for at least a third of his advertised prices, sometimes half.

Always extremes, nobody can be sensible.




So what do you charge for the exact same services?????
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:30:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.




You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy



C'mon, his prices are sky high, that's all I'm saying. I get what I want in Colt parts for at least a third of his advertised prices, sometimes half.

Always extremes, nobody can be sensible.




So what do you charge for the exact same services?????



I don't charge anything for services. I don't have a business. Anything I've done has been as a favor at most, free most of the time.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:31:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 7:32:16 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By El_Abogado:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.


You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy



+1



Just because we find out what Ken is doing doesn't mean we'll be able to do it ourselves.

There are a lot of gunsmithing techniques that I know about but I would not do it myself and would rather have a professional do the work.

I don't see how he would loose business by letting people know the details behind his reliability package. Ken's reliability work is proven and more people would be going to him if they knew more about it.

He would also probably get more business if didn't limit his reliablity work to just Colts. Though in someway I can see why he chooses to do it that way.

If you're paying someone to do work for you I don't think it's unreasonable to know what's being done.

If I'm having my car worked on and the mechanic can't or won't explain to me what he is doing to my car I'll take my car and money elsewere. I feel the same about my guns too...
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:38:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
I will never question Ken's knowledge of ARs, but I'd bet you could do 90% of what he does for about 50% of the cost. The other 10% may be tweaking that he likes and feels makes things better. The prices of stuff at SAW make my eyes bug out of my head every time I look at stuff there.




You really cannot condem the guy for making a living, or maybe he should just do it for free so everyone on the internet is happy



C'mon, his prices are sky high, that's all I'm saying. I get what I want in Colt parts for at least a third of his advertised prices, sometimes half.

Always extremes, nobody can be sensible.




So what do you charge for the exact same services?????



I don't charge anything for services. I don't have a business. Anything I've done has been as a favor at most, free most of the time.





I suppose if Ken was working out of his garage at home he could do this, but you have to realize that he has the costs too

1. Building
2. Insurance
3. Employees
4. Taxes
5. Electricity


I dont see where he is out of line, he provides a service, and if you decide you want that service you have to pay
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:39:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
If you're paying someone to do work for you I don't think it's unreasonable to know what's being done.



That is why my outlook is different than most. There is very little, if any, work on an AR that I would hire out.

If Ken polishes the chamber, the ramps and opens up the gas port, I can do all of that.

If he installs a stiffer extractor spring and a heavier buffer, a monkey can handle that at prices nowhere near what Ken charges for Colt parts. These don't even have to be Colt parts and you still get the end result.

I'm sure he's got some top secret tinkering that gets that 0.1% extra reliability out of a rifle, but the other 99.9% of the stuff can be done by many here.

FWIW, YMMV, YADA - YADA
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 7:58:37 AM EDT
He would also probably get more business if didn't limit his reliablity work to just Colts. Though in someway I can see why he chooses to do it that way.

SAW is a very busy shop. If he had trouble getting business, I'm sure he would work on the other brands. Limited what you work on reduces inventory and $$$ paid out of pocket on said inventory, and reduces PITA in many other ways.

SAW in not the only shop that limits what they will work on. Try sending a springfield mil-spec to Les Baer, or a charles daly to Hilton Yam.

I agree that some of the mods can be done (and have been done) by any of us. As to the other things mods, you're paying for his exptertise and his labor.

Time is money, and shop time is expensive.

For example, most motorcycle dealerships in my region charge $70+ per hour.

Name gunsmiths are similar.

As for me, I've done the mods I feel are worthwhile, myself, and my guns run fine. If I was doing PSD or contract work, then I'd pay Ken for that extra measure of reliability.

As always, YMMV.

SF
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 8:32:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/9/2005 4:41:36 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By a38337:
He would also probably get more business if didn't limit his reliablity work to just Colts. Though in someway I can see why he chooses to do it that way.

SAW is a very busy shop. If he had trouble getting business, I'm sure he would work on the other brands. Limited what you work on reduces inventory and $$$ paid out of pocket on said inventory, and reduces PITA in many other ways.

SAW in not the only shop that limits what they will work on. Try sending a springfield mil-spec to Les Baer, or a charles daly to Hilton Yam.

I agree that some of the mods can be done (and have been done) by any of us. As to the other things mods, you're paying for his exptertise and his labor.

Time is money, and shop time is expensive.

For example, most motorcycle dealerships in my region charge $70+ per hour.

Name gunsmiths are similar.

As for me, I've done the mods I feel are worthwhile, myself, and my guns run fine. If I was doing PSD or contract work, then I'd pay Ken for that extra measure of reliability.

As always, YMMV.

SF



I moonlight for extra cash with a buddy doing network adminstration for a local law office - we charge a flat rate of $125/hr. Yes that's usually over $150 when some secretary opens an infected email or malware and jacks their workstation, for reimage, or thorough cleaning, just for 1.25 hours.

What Ken charges for his work is reasonable for those who don;t have time to mess with doing it themselves. And for many of us, time IS money. You have to put it in perspective.
Link Posted: 12/9/2005 3:42:04 PM EDT
I love the way folks rag on Ken for his high prices but rarely do the same to other dealers who also charge full retail for parts and have high shop rates

Link Posted: 12/9/2005 6:54:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2005 7:24:09 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By AKM:
I love the way folks rag on Ken for his high prices but rarely do the same to other dealers who also charge full retail for parts and have high shop rates




Very true.

Like paying $500 or more to have your upper test fired and "Broken In".

Ken and his wife are good people.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:19:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
If you're paying someone to do work for you I don't think it's unreasonable to know what's being done.




+1000
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