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Woohoo- Thanks Alex! |
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No one took pics of it at the range when we were taking the informal class. So I got nothing for you right now
I will shoot the gun on Sunday at FDCC though, so there's sure to be some pics then. and then of course at the Pat class. So stay tuned. |
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She was borrowing a SWAT guys rig. It was a Diamond Back plate carrier (with no plates) with Tactical Tailor mag pouches. She really liked the DB carrier because it could adjust small enough for her and the shoulder straps were very padded. She not only liked the padding for the comfort, but she liked how it absorbed recoil as well. We're ordering a set up just like it for her on Monday.
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Cool
If you ever want plates for her. UltraLight A buddy of mine got a set and he is now issued them - 3LBS a plate - not bad for small framed people -or anyone if your wear it all the time. |
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I dont know, flash dot #2 kind of draws my eye to the middle automatically. |
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A concept very similar to a build I have for myself in the works. Regarding the heavier SS barrel, I agree a carbine weighing around 9-10lbs doesnt bother me either. I'm not going to be carrying the thing all day every day, heck just add two more pull-ups to the daily routine.
Back to the match barrel, I like my Eotech, but whats the point of the good barrel if all you have is a red dot? Flip Up BUIS arent precise enough for precision work. I've played with the Aimpoint 3X Mag, seemed OK for the longer work, but for close work it sucked. Have you compared the Leupold M2 with the SPR reticle to your Short Dot? The difference between a $500 scope, and a $1000 scope is obvious, but I havent yet experienced the difference between a $1000 scope and a $2000 scope. |
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Sure, I have a fair amount of time looking at the Leupold M2. We sell them all the time where I work. Close to a year ago, (right after the Shot show) I wrote a fairly lengthy post on what I thought between 4 similar optics. The Short Dot and the M2 were among them (the Night Force 1-4, which STILL isnt available, and the one from IOR were the other two). I like the cross hair reticle in the Leupold better than the mildot style reticle on the Short Dot. But either of those will do the job at putting an aimed shot where you want it when a precise reticle is what you need.
Where the Short Dot crushed the Leupold, and all others I have seen, is in speed. The Short Dot dials down to 1.1 power, the Leupold 1.5. The 1.1 is easier to use when speed is an issue, but I shoot ACOGs all the time with BAC, so its not even that. I could easily use the 1.5x quick enough... if the reticle would light up bright enough. Therein lies the problem with the Leupold and every single other low power variable scope I have looked at. The reticle cant be used for speed at all, or at least no where near as easy as the Short Dot. This is where the Short Dot (SD) stands tall above all other scopes in the catagry. The Leupold reticle is very fine, but Leupold only gives you the option of lighting that same fine reticle. It just doesnt work. It lights up fine enough for you to use well in low light etc., but if you are trying to light the reticle up so that you can turn the scopes down to 1.5 and get some speed out of it, it just doesnt happen. Add to that you only get 10 hours of battery life out of the Leupold, and if you want to see the reticle at all in the day, you HAVE to turn it up to its highest setting (which is 11). Even at 11, with a brand new battery, its really still too dim. In contrast, the Short Dot's illuminated dot is every bit as bright as an Aimpoint. The battery life has been quoted to me around 200 hours (that's totally unconfirmed though). In my opinion, the Short Dot takes all the great things about the Leupold, and adds the speed and capability of an Aimpoint. Its like having four task specific scopes built into one optic. With the SD's reticle turned up and the mag turned down to 1.1, you have an Aimpoint. With the SDs reticle turned up and the mag turned mid way, you have a Comp ACOG. With the reticle turned up and the mag all the way up, you have a TA31 ACOG. With the reticle turned off and the mag all the way up, you have a low power precision scope. All that with the fantastic clarity, excellent field of view, easy controls. If you dont need the speed the SD offers, dont waste your money. There's pleanty other quality low power variables out there that can do everything the SD can in that regaurd. If you need or want speed and precision, nothing is as good as the SD. CapnCrunch told me about another optic (maybe it was Talon) that was nearly as good as the SD for almost half the price. And while close to tha capability at about half the cost, the SD was still at the top of the heap. Like I mentioned earlier, at nearly $2k, I wanted a reason not to buy this. I wanted a reason to say the $700 Leupold was just as good, or the $1k Night Force would fit the bill. I looked and looked, checked them all out, asked people who have tried and shot them all and who own them. I have heard from one single source who has not tried them himself (but that I trust completely) that he has heard the adjustments may not track well. He is the only person who has said that and I'll be testing that myself to see if it is in issue. I have read of one report where there was a problem with two SDs at a Pat Rogers class. However, these appear to have been isolated instances, and as I recall, S&B totally took care of the scopes. Everyone else I spoke to who has had them said look, if you can swing the money, get it. Nothing else compares. I must say, so far, I agree. |
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This is a train of thought I have been suggesting to most people who come in where I work as well. When people are buying carbines with dot sights, standard triggers and plan to shoot blasting ammo (like XM193 or Q3131a), but asking to buy a free float rail like the Troy or a Daniel Defense, I usually just recomend a Surefire rail. They ask, doesnt free floating the barrel improve your accuracy? I tell them it can help, but that their gun will likely have too many other limiting factors to notice the difference it can make. Like the standard trigger, dot optic (or irons), and standard ammo. Having the parts on a gun working to compliment one another so to speak. |
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NAG I believe what you're refering to is called a system, "a group of independent but interrelated elements comprising a unified whole". In this case, a weapon system. Strengthen one but neglect the other invariably diminishes and negates the gains obtained by the better component. I'm a network infrastructure systems engineer, I see this all the time. $2500 wrokstations, $5000 servers, but a POS SOHO switch, poorly designed topology, and messed up wiring are the ingredients of an unstable network and unproductive network.
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Thanks for the clarification. The info I had was from someone trying to sell one on the EE some months back. |
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Ok, now how do I determine if I'm at a level where the Short Dot will be a benefit, or is that $2K better spent on training? |
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The only thing getting a SD will benefit is your abaility to hit quickly up close when compared to any other magnified optic. I would not be surprised if you (or anyone willing to) can buy the Leupold and train yourself to be quick with its fine, poorly illuminated reticle. I am sure it is obtainable. However, I submit to you that someone equally as trained/good as you will still be able to be faster with the Short Dot. Its construction and function lends itself to these uses better than anything else out there. Its not going to make a bad shooter into a good shooter. It wont make a slow shooter a fast shooter. But I believe it can make a good shooter a better shooter, and a fast shooter a faster shooter. I believe it does this by allowing the said shooter, who is already pretty good, the ability to take advantage of more of the rifles own inherant capabilities. Is it the perfect scope? Is it everything I would like? Nah, I doubt such a thing exists, I'd love if it were the size and weight of an ACOG, have the battery life of an Aimpoint, a little more magnification would be nice, have the ability to dimly illuminate the mildot for low light distance shooting, and cost about a $500!! Now that would be sweet! |
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Train yourself up to your absolute peak best with irons, if you add a dot sight you will be quicker up close.
Train yourself up to your peak best with the dot sight, you will be more accurate if you add a magnified optic. Train yourself up to your peak best with the magnified optic, you will be quicker up close but lose some precision if you ad an ACOG. Gear is no substitute for training, but you can only do as good as your gear will allow. Gear that allows you more possibility, offers you more opportunity. |
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Very well said! |
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Well that is really up to you to figure out. A tool that I use to tell if my gear is better than me is how well I perform against other shooters in the training classes I take. For instance, there were 20 shooters in my Pat Roger AAR class. I had the high scrore (carbine section) on the MEU SOC Qual. That tells me that I am shooting up to the potential of my gear. If I was last in my class I (and had a bunch of HSLD gear) I would rethink my setup and dropped back to basics. C4 www.GRTactical.com |
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OK, so what did you score, and how many times did you run it? ? There were over 20 in my Pat Rogers class, we ran the course twice, and only 2 people got higher scores than me. I shot 92 both times. That logic makes me feel better, but not sure I agree with it. I'll probably end up with both. |
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We ran it twice and my score was above a 92. I think you also have to look at the people in your class as well. We had 3 USMC HPT instructors and a number LE and experienced CIVY shooters. Measuring yourself against your fellow shooters is about the only way I know of getting a realistic assessment of your abilities. C4 |
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Since you put it that way, half the people in my class were knuckleheads, who I didnt think had any business being there. |
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Do you say that because they(class members) were newer shooters with less skill than you or because they were acting in an unsafe manner? |
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Maybe not half, but there were several, who after the first day, I didnt want to be anywhere near. Idiots, basicaly. While picking up brass one day we had to explain to one of them why you could not just "use a big magnet" to pick the brass. I'm not the only one who noticed. AFAIK, there was only only 1 ND, but I saw a bunch of muzzles swinging around. I think there were just too many people in the class, it was almost 30 some if I remember correctly. |
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There were 24 students in the Albion class, and a couple students were close to being OBE. However, if other students being muzzled, I did not see it. If you did, you should have brought it to Pat's or my attention. As stressed in the safety lecture on TD1, everybody is a Range Safety Officer.
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OBE means? |
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There were a few of us who pointed stuff out about people who needed watched. These things were pointed out, and taken care of. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Grants posts regarding gear and training level
I happened to score higher than Stony for example. Now, if there were ever a situation gone bad, and there was only 1 carbine between the two of us, I can promise you, I'd be handing the carbine to Stony. How do you judge gear/training and diminishing returns? Is it possible? Your thoughts are appreciated. |
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Comparing yourself to other shooters isnt something I always stress. While I enjoy being competitive, it's not something I tend to put much value on. At least not in regaurd to how I am doing against others.
I try to know my limitations and weaknesses as well as my stengths and skills. If something helps me perform better than what I expect of myself consistently, I am *reasonably* sure the gear made the difference. I compete every month. Sometimes I win, sometimes I dont. However, I try not to judge my performance on that. I compete to practice and try to use the trigger time as a training opportunity. The fact that others are there as well is part of that sure, but anyone who competes often enough knows that the best shooter isnt always the winner. |
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Sweet setup! I have something similar in the works right now, but mine will have the Leitner-Wise gas piston and a Grenadier Precision mid-length forend... And I had Noveske turn the barrel down to a straight 0.80" between the gas block and the chamber. Not sure if I'll regret that, but the LW system uses a carbine length gas system, so the extra weight probably wouldn't help as much as it would with a mid-length gas system anyway. |
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I agree. You should ALWAYS be self evaluating yourself. Once again, taking training classes from knowledgeable instructors will help you a lot (as they will critique what you are doing right and wrong). Every shooter has bad days and good days. If your normally a good shooter and had a bad training day, I wouldn't sell all my HSLD gear. C4 |
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It's pretty simple. Get the best training you have available to you, and buy the best gear you can afford. If you can only afford one or the other, get trained. In selecting your gear, buy what suits your mission.
Let's be realistic here. Many members/readers/posters here are not in law enforcement or military. I think it is a great thing that everyday citizens are embracing defensive shooting, be it handgun, carbine, rifle or whatever. This helps drive the market toward building better gear. The reality is that the chance a citizen will use their carbine in a defensive shooting is just about slim to none. That's just a data point to keep things in perspective. As for scores on the MEU(SOC) qual course, remember that the course of fire we do in class is different than the actual qual. Students aren't wearing full kit with helmets, it is not *really* timed, and there is no pressure. One thing I have learned with quals and/or class shoot-offs, the best shooter in the class can come in last and the worst can win. They are artificial, but a good way for the student to test HIMSELF under pressure. Shooting a high score on the qual is certainly a benchmark for ability, but it is not the only indicator. I have never shot with Grant, but my business partner has (and so has Pat.) By all accounts he is a competent shooter, and has a valid perspective. Back to the original question, how will you know if you are at the level where the S&B Short Dot will be a benefit? I believe that is the wrong question. The Short Dot was designed to enhance Target Discrimination, not necessarily to shoot cloverleaf groups on paper. A better question would be, do you operate in an environment where a CQB capable, low powered variable optic would be beneficial? Tim PS. OBE is Overcome By Events. |
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one of the best posts I have seen on AR15.. |
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Thanks Tim, and I completely understand about being realistic. I own and shoot firearms as a hobby, its something I enjoy doing. I enjoyed training with you as much as I enjoy being slung up in my coat in a HP match.
Regarding my score on the MEU(SOC) qual course - From High Power, and club carbine matches, I'm used to shooting while timed, and I knew how much time I had - I had fun. I didnt try to beat any scores, and I believe many others in the class shot what they did because they felt pressure that I didnt. I'm not a gunfighter, never said I was, I'm a hobby shooter.
If that statement were true, there would be no arfcom, and I'd have no sales.
For 99.9% of us here, these things are no more than toys, so I guess there was no point to my question either. I operate in my friends back yard in South Michigan, where I battle clay pigeons with my Benelli M3, and cardboard B27s with my carbine. The ShortDot is darn cool, but I think I'll get more enjoyment/benefit spending that money on training, or put that money towards a M16 because I want a machine gun now that I have my SOT. So back on topic - Nice rifle NAG, its all kinds of cool stuff that you'll never need but wanted anyhow. I hope to finish mine soon |
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Steve,
Most of us fit into that hobbyist category in one way or another. I may carry an AR15, MP5, 870, and 1911 at work, but I also have a specific interest in the subject matter. Precious few who carry a gun for a living have the same interest level in the subject matter as we do. As for carbines in defensive roles, I have heard countless stories of civilian self defense involving a handgun or shotgun, but I have not heard of a justified defensive shooting by a civilian with a carbine. Regardless of my anecdotal experience, I would venture to say that of all non-LE or military defensive encounters with a carbine, those involving an AR15 or M4 type carbine would be in the low single digit percentages, if that. For most of us, carbines and the gear that goes with them are toys. Some just happen to also use them on the job. Tim |
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My two bits... If you hang around here at "barfcom" long enough, you realize there are precious few who know what they're talking about. This thread is one of those gems where there is some GOOD info flowing back and forth! That said, these things are "toys" to most of us - "tools" to help us shoot as good as we can shoot. For myself, I chose to spend the money on a Short Dot (and a Noveske barrel, etc) because my other tools all put limitations on me. I had one system for "carbine" matches where I shoot 0-50 yds, and one system for a "truck gun" and "other" matches where I might be called upon to shoot as far out as 400+ yds. The Short Dot is the ONLY thing I've heard of that can do ALL of that without really giving anything up. Do any of us NEED our toys to be this good??? Probably not, as the shooter is a lot bigger factor than the tool he's using. But, as Grant said, if your rifle system holds you back in some way, and you can afford a system that does not - there's no reason not to buy or build something that can shoot up to your abilities. NAG's rig is a perfect example of something that is put together to allow the shooter to perform up to his abilities - if he shoots like crap, it ain't gonna be the rifle's fault! Same can't necessarily be said if he was shooting with an Aimpoint... or an ACOG. |
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I (like Steve) do not carry a gun for work. It is however my one and only hobby and I devote all my free time to it.
My primary defensive weapon for HD is my AR. Because of that, I try to train with it as much as possible. It doesn't take long for a hobbyist type shooter to turn into a PSD type shooter on a home breakin, civil unrest or natural disaster. This is why (as Tim said) we need to buy the best gear WE CAN AFFORD and get as MUCH TRAINING as possible. C4 |
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I think this is a good point. The Short Dot seems expensive until you realize that it's replacing an ACOG AND an Aimpoint, as well as mounts for each. That quickly adds up to very near the price of a Short Dot plus mount. Aimpoint M3 plus mount $600 Trijicon TA31 plus mount $950 Then factor in the price of the convenience of not having to swap out and carry two different optics, as well as the benefits of not having to learn two different optics, and the Short Dot quickly looks "affordable" to me. |
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Thats what I was thinking - as soon as I sell 2 of the TA31s on my shelf, I'm getting a ShortDot. Maybe a dealer here can help set me up |
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I picked up the Short Dot based on two recomendations - but due to the fact that I had identified a problem operationally with my other two optic choices -- the TA31 and EOTECH 552.
In what should be the true AR15 get both spirit: -- guns or training -- get both! I'm not a great shooter, I've had some training both gov't and civy side, and I shoot a bit, but while an EXCELLENT shooter may take me with a plain jane rig - I can see the difference between when I shoot my setup (like NAG's) and when I shoot a bare bones M4/C8 with EO or ACOG. If I can get a bit faster or a bit more accuracy out of something I will try it, cuz': we deal in lead friend |
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Neil,
I'm just seeing this for the first time. VERY NICE blaster. |
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I'm looking for a used TA31F for around $700 you interested? If so, email me - rem |
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I would guess a TA31F for $700 would have to be pretty heavily used! Never hurts to ask though!
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