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Posted: 6/26/2005 8:18:00 PM EDT
Okay, it high time someone volunteers to test these two buffers toe to toe to bring enlightenment to the masses...

Enidine

MGI

High tech hydraulics, or simple springs? What's the answer? I sure don't know. Do you?
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 6:09:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 7:33:33 AM EDT
the mgi in my .223/5.56 makes if feel like a hot .22lr

no noticable movement in muzzle rise with a phantom 5c1, stays on paper
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:25:58 AM EDT
I put an MGI buffer in my midlength RRA and there was a noticable difference. However, the big news was when I put it in my issue Colt M4A1 last drill weekend and tried full auto. WOW! what a difference. I had one guy try it and didn't tell him I changed anything. his response, "There's no recoil!" While not entirely true, it is definitely much more controllable. They've been threatening us with deployment for years, and when it finally happens, I'm taking my MGI buffer, and several other guys, in fact all who tried it, said they will buy them, too.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:04:09 PM EDT
Do any you guys who own either one see any possible reliability issues down the road due to problems with the moving parts in these buffers?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:27:45 PM EDT
I would like to know what these actually do to the cyclic rate of hte M-16?

Do they really slow them down?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 5:10:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:15:31 PM EDT
what about single shots on the AR...will the MGI help reduce muzzle flip at all for precision shooting?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:40:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rooster3:
what about single shots on the AR...will the MGI help reduce muzzle flip at all for precision shooting?




yes it will!

shooting prone there is more recoil felt, while standing there is an amazing reduce in muzzle rise.

like shooting a hot .22lr!!
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:58:56 PM EDT
sweet! what about off sandbags or a bipod?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:25:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rooster3:
sweet! what about off sandbags or a bipod?



you felt recoil is still there though slight.


works like a real good muzzle brake imo! there is still a slight jump but not as much as it was without the mgi rrb
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 10:12:39 PM EDT
An ARFCOM member who has one of these MGI buffers has volunteered to lend me his; I will take it to the NORCAL shoot at the end of the month, try it myself, and let whoever else is there try it. I will report back with my impressions.

It will be used in a Bushmaster 16" HBAR with telestock. I will compare it with the standard buffer that came with my VLTOR, and a DPMS two-piece 9mm heavy buffer. We are scientists after all.
Link Posted: 7/4/2005 4:56:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 2:22:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
An ARFCOM member who has one of these MGI buffers has volunteered to lend me his; I will take it to the NORCAL shoot at the end of the month, try it myself, and let whoever else is there try it. I will report back with my impressions.

It will be used in a Bushmaster 16" HBAR with telestock. I will compare it with the standard buffer that came with my VLTOR, and a DPMS two-piece 9mm heavy buffer. We are scientists after all.




Look forward to your report- I'm getting more and more interested in one of these buffers (along with other stuff that twl sells!)
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 2:39:38 AM EDT
i can tell you that it cut "felt recoil" on my .50beowulf by about 30-40% compared to the rifle buffer.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 12:38:00 PM EDT
Is there any obvious difference with the MGI buffer in a semi-auto ar? Or is the buffer really benificial in a full-auto?
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 1:32:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gargamel:
Is there any obvious difference with the MGI buffer in a semi-auto ar?



It keeps the muzzle on target for faster follow-up shots.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 1:32:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gargamel:
Is there any obvious difference with the MGI buffer in a semi-auto ar? Or is the buffer really benificial in a full-auto?




i noticed it considerably in my semi-auto ar!

nearly cancelled muzzle rise and cut whatever recoil there is on the .223/5.56 drastically!


i would recommend it to anyone.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 3:32:15 PM EDT
Just returned home from the range...

We tested the Enidine hydraulic buffer, the MGI rate-reducing buffer, and a standard carbine buffer in a test rig equipped as follows.

A3 Bushmaster Superlight with A2 FH
511 Eotech, GG&G A2 BUIS
RRA 6 position stock.

Our test ammo was new manufacture Federal XM193.

We chose a basic lightweight rifle to amplify any changes in felt recoil and muzzle rise.

Comparing both enhanced buffers using the standard carbine buffer as the baseline, recoil was definately smoother and not as much of the sharp all-at-once hit characteristic of the carbine buffer. Muzzle climb and movement off of target was substantially reduced with either of the enhanced buffers.



However, the Enidine buffer did have a noticable, however slight, advantage compared to MGI. It simply shot smoother, and the front sight simply stayed closer to the target area, whereas the MGI tended to drift to one side more. That could possibly be do to the MGIs increased weight. The Enidine has the edge here.

The price advantage also goes to the Enidine. MGI selling for $140-150, the Enidine is at $100.


As far as for durability, Enidine has done testing to 1.5 million simulated firing cycles without failure. Enidine is a very large hydraulic company that manufactures hydraulics for aerospace, industry, defense, and more. Enidine manufactures the soft mount for the .50 cal machine gun, and the hydraulic buffer in the M249 SAW. They have plenty of experience and success with hydraulics in weapon applications.

Enidine Defense Products

Testing has shown that Enidine buffer reduces the rate of fire 200 rounds per minute on an M4.

PK Firearms
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 4:03:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2005 5:57:22 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Paul - Thanks for the range report!

I'm starting to really like the idea of the recoil/rate reducing buffers. I've never really considered them because I've always thought the AR was light recoiling rifle but it's really all about controlling your weapon and and getting fast hits where it counts. Currently I'm using H-buffers and Tungsten H-buffers.

If these buffers do what they claim, and it sounds like they do, then they would be a good addition to a fighting gun. I would imagine having one of these would improve the shot to shot speed of my NSR's and that can only be a good thing.

A concern I have with these buffers is reliability. I'm paranoid that introducing more moving parts into my carbine would possibly decrease the reliability. I have no experience with these buffers so please educate me.

Also, will these buffers work with a mid-length gas system and what effect will they have on underpowered ammo like Wolf? I use Wolf for short range (0-50 yard) practice and drills cheap to shoot and my carbine eats it like candy.



Link Posted: 7/5/2005 7:29:35 PM EDT
I'd like to echo/amplify some of the things Yojimbo said...

I too overlooked the enhanced buffers, but now that the benefits are clear, the first question is "WHY NOT?"

WHY DOESN'T the military use these if they work? Conservatism and Cost, IMHO. The hydraulic unit, however, is standard in Diemaco's LMG variant of the M-16, and was also standard in the Colt ACR rifle.

On the "reliability issue"...this seems to be a non-issue to me. If the recoil dampening functionality goes tits up, what are you left with? Something EXACTLY THE SAME as a "standard" buffer! So, in the event that one of these fails down the road...your rifle will STILL FUNCTION, and you will have enjoyed the benefits while it lasted...unless civilization has collapsed, trash the broken buffer and buy another one...

Using "underpowered" ammo shold not be an issue either...the round either has enough energy to cycle the action or it doesn't...all an enhanced buffer will do is dampen the recoil by stretching out its duration in time...the bleed gas shoves the bolt group back, and the recoil spring drives it forward. The buffer plays no part in either operation.

Mine will also go in a Midlength upper also...improving the performance of an item itself an improvement (midlength gas system) of a PROVEN (carbine gas system) weapon. I see no reason why one of these buffers would be DETRIMENTAL...

As for the choice between the two enhanced buffers...I too am skeptical of complex systems; the edge here would seem to go to the MGI, as its a simple concept. But the Endine folks seem to have a hard knowlege of military requirements, so...

In the absence of hard data from the manufacturers (time/force curves, accelerometer readings, etc. which I'm sure exist, but are not given out perhaps because they think the public are not interested and/or knowlegable enough to understand them) I will prolly have to [arfcom]BUY BOTH[/arfcom] and base my conclusions on sensed/percieved feedback (slaps to the shoulder)...
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 8:37:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 2:59:18 AM EDT
unbias opinion- teh mgi is less busy looking and less to it, which in turn less problems

though im sure both have been fully tested the hydro one would render weapon useless if it were to ever fail.


that being said i was told that the Enidine Hydraulic buffer has only a 1yr warranty to mgi/twl lifetime replacement warranty.

hard to not believe the dealers that are offering the products to be un-bias about the other. though the dealers here are honest there still would be in favor of their own product.

just my .02 that reviews and opinions of end users are unbias
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 5:41:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
If the recoil dampening functionality goes tits up, what are you left with? Something EXACTLY THE SAME as a "standard" buffer!



Except that the MGI weighs 2 1/2 times more than the standard CAR buffer. If something should happen to the plunger assembly, you still have a heavy buffer (7 ounces or so, IIRC). And like eklikwhoa mentioned above, it has a lifetime warranty.
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 7:26:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
WHY DOESN'T the military use these if they work? Conservatism and Cost, IMHO. The hydraulic unit, however, is standard in Diemaco's LMG variant of the M-16, and was also standard in the Colt ACR rifle.



Colt's did try to sell their hydraulic buffer to the Big Army (along with allot of other things), and they declined. Now that there is a shooting war on maybe Big Army will take another look?
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 7:53:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
If the recoil dampening functionality goes tits up, what are you left with? Something EXACTLY THE SAME as a "standard" buffer!



Except that the MGI weighs 2 1/2 times more than the standard CAR buffer. If something should happen to the plunger assembly, you still have a heavy buffer (7 ounces or so, IIRC). And like eklikwhoa mentioned above, it has a lifetime warranty.



Okay then, how much is too much when it comes to buffer weight?

It seems that past a certain weight, a heavy buffer would tend to exacerbate the recoil and rduce controllability, due to the greater mass sliding back and forth in the buttstock...
Link Posted: 7/6/2005 10:36:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2005 10:37:28 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 3:28:22 AM EDT
These glowing reports on the MGI buffer make me wish that my credit card hadn't expired over here.

Link Posted: 7/7/2005 4:05:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By twl:
The MGI RRB will slow the rate by approximately 15%-20%, depending on the gun.
A gun that cycles at 750rpm, will go to about 625rpm with the MGI RRB in it.
A gun that is overcycling at about 900rpm will drop to about 725rpm.

Controllability is increased to the level that full 30 round mag dumps in full auto are possible, while still retaining sight picture the entire time. We've dumped full mags in a single burst that were in a 6" circle at 50 yds.

I don't know what the Enidine will do.



I am not a MGI dealer, but I have a MGI buffer in my SPR, oh, my God. Smooth, lighter recoil and made it more controllable. My Crane stock SPR was so impressive, a local PD ask me to build five for their perimeter team.

Storm, don't you go to Burro Canyon shoot?? Make sure i bring the SPR next time.




i let some guys at the range shoot my ar once and they thought either theirs or mines had something wrong with it.
they asked why mine had such light recoil and theres much more. told them about the buffer and they still didnt believe that the buffer did all that
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 6:26:55 AM EDT
I've got 7.1oz for the MGI RRB. Anyone know the weight of the Enidine unit? Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 9:00:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
I've got 7.1oz for the MGI RRB. Anyone know the weight of the Enidine unit? Thanks.




The Enidine weighes 4.2 oz

Brett
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 7:34:24 PM EDT
I hope to shoot both at the ARFCOM NORCAL meet at the end of the month.

I tried to order the Enidine from PKFirearms today but no one answered the phone
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 8:01:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2005 8:01:28 PM EDT by Brett_Walker]

Originally Posted By StormSurge:
I hope to shoot both at the ARFCOM NORCAL meet at the end of the month.

I tried to order the Enidine from PKFirearms today but no one answered the phone hr


We were in and out of the gun shop today. Some of was when we were at our range with a customer who was testing his new Enidine buffer. He was very pleasedh

Brett Walker
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 9:21:53 PM EDT
I just tried out my new Endine buffer, It is smoooooth to say the least, I use my M-4 at work and quick and accurate follow up shots are paramount, If needed. This unit works very well, and is well made, A buddy of mine overseas wants one for his duty weapon, and I will be getting it from PK Firearms as well, thanks for the great service! Sorry you did not catch them today it was my fault !
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 9:17:24 AM EDT
What about the AAC buffer? How does it compare to these other two? It's the only one that I've seen that mentions that it improves functioning in a 9mm (I'm sure the others do too), and it's cheaper than the others at $75. Anyone have any experience them?
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 9:21:27 AM EDT
Don't know about the hydraulic one, but my MGI heavy is fantastic. In the M4 it smoothes it out, in the Midlength it makes the whole deal velvet.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 9:40:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 9:44:33 AM EDT by 0123456789]
Enidine had their buffers for sale at the SHOT Show for $75. I wish I would have grabbed a couple.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 8:27:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0123456789:
Enidine had their buffers for sale at the SHOT Show for $75. I wish I would have grabbed a couple.




thats a good price!

mgi/twl had a group buy and the mgi rrb was going for $100+shipping,, wished i would have picked up a few extras.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 8:29:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Leg:
What about the AAC buffer? How does it compare to these other two? It's the only one that I've seen that mentions that it improves functioning in a 9mm (I'm sure the others do too), and it's cheaper than the others at $75. Anyone have any experience them?





i would pick either buffers in this thread over the aac, the aac takes place of the spring and buffer so when it goes the rifle is rendered useless.


with the two discussed in this thread they would keep going and act as a std heavy/heavier buffer
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 11:10:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2005 11:11:41 AM EDT by Talyn]
I recently got a MGI RRB for my new RRA carbine. I took it to the range with my Colt CAR for comparison. The MGI buffer was fantastic!! A mind boggling difference in recoil and muzzle climb. I'm sold 150%.

I just wish there was another group buy so I can pick up 3 more to tame the Colts!
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 7:45:48 AM EDT
The MGI buffer has been very helpful. I have a Colt M16 RR. When I first set up a Colt 9mm subgun upper on my RR, I had buffer problems. I had used Colt carbine parts to set up the upper. The info from the "Rimfire and Pistol Calibers" forum was that I needed the extra heavy buffer for the 9mm set up. The upper worked fine. The problem was the 16 lower with the extra heavy 9mm buffer wouldn't run the .223 upper in full auto. It would work in semi. But in full auto it would fire one round, the gun would cycle, there would be a round in the chamber but the hammer wouldn't be cocked. So I would have to switch buffers when I switched calibers. What a pain.

After seeing the artical in Small Arms Review about the MGI buffer, I tried one. It is smooth, reduces muzzle rise, and slows FA cyclic rate. Also another great thing is I can run either 9mm or .223 and don't have to switch buffers. I was so impressed I bought a second MGI RR buffer for my semi. Great product. I would buy another.

Scott
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 3:34:07 AM EDT
First of all let me say hello to all. I'm new to the board and AR15 rifles in general but just recieved my first (RRA Varmint). This might sound like a stupid question from a rookie but what is the advantage of these hydralic buffers over the pneumatic ones I have read about. Great board by the way and I'm proud to part of it and the whole AR15 addiction.......
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 3:49:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By realineman:
First of all let me say hello to all. I'm new to the board and AR15 rifles in general but just recieved my first (RRA Varmint). This might sound like a stupid question from a rookie but what is the advantage of these hydralic buffers over the pneumatic ones I have read about. Great board by the way and I'm proud to part of it and the whole AR15 addiction.......



the mgi is neither, works with some sort of spring

the advantage would be less recoil, faster follow up shots, less muzzle rise, all in all a more controlable rifle.

but i would just shoot the rifle as is and then add to it later, that way you dont create problems.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 3:51:48 AM EDT
just to add

i shot my recon/reece midlength this weekend with the mgi buffer in it and was really amazed at the difference! i could hear the bolt cycle!

recoil was like nothing!!! if i were to have a suppressor on this thing i probably wouldnt have known that it fired other than the hammer dropping.



Link Posted: 7/13/2005 4:08:34 AM EDT
Do either of these work w/ an A2 buttstock? Are either needed w/ an A2 buttstock?
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 4:31:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmart:
Do either of these work w/ an A2 buttstock? Are either needed w/ an A2 buttstock?




i know that the mgi comes with a spacer that would allow their buffer to work in an a2/a1 length stock.


i have one in an a2 stock but its for my beowulf.
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 4:37:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 6:36:34 AM EDT
I bought a Enidine from PK monday and if I get it in by this weekend Ill have a range report by monday.

Remman
Link Posted: 7/13/2005 6:41:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twl:
Jmart,

The MGI RRB buffer is available with an optional delrin spacer which is inserted into the A1 of A2 rifle buffer stock to take up the added space at the back end of the rifle length buffer tube.

This makes the RRB buffer useful in a carbine by just using the buffer alone, and in a rifle by using the buffer/spacer combination.

Very versatile and effective in either the rifle or carbine system, and will just about any caliber that I can think of that fits in an AR15 platform.

Yes, the rifle length systems will benefit from this buffer.




thanks for info.
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 5:28:31 AM EDT
Can you use the mgi buffer with a magpul stock?
Link Posted: 7/22/2005 5:40:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2005 5:41:26 AM EDT by eklikwhoa]

Originally Posted By humzai:
Can you use the mgi buffer with a magpul stock?



yes!


i run the mgi rrb in these


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