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Posted: 11/4/2003 1:02:55 PM EDT
I'm looking to buy a M1 carbine but I'm confused on what brand to or not to buy. I found a nice looking Plainfield Paratrooped model locally for $595. Has a wood collapsing stock w/ forward pistol grip. Thats about the price range I'd like to stay in. Any advice?
Link Posted: 11/4/2003 2:20:01 PM EDT
Plainfield is one of the better non USGI ones out there. The M1 Carbines typically bring $350-400 for the non USGI with mixmaster (not a bad thing, just arsenal rework)USGI ones averaging $400-600. HTH, JC
Link Posted: 11/4/2003 6:35:53 PM EDT
One bit of advise is dont buy a Universal M1. I have never had a single malfunction with mine but somehow they have a horrible reputation and noone will buy the thing for even $300 delivered with 3 mags. I suggest USGI to retain some amount fo resale value if thats important to you.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 5:16:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2003 5:18:04 AM EDT by rebel_rifle]
Stay with USGI for several reasons. First, collector value. USGI carbines will only go up in price. Commercial ones have no collector value, but a lot of those selling them think they do. I would not pay over $150 to $200 for the vast majority of them. Some people will, but not me it is too much of a crap shoot. Second, parts. All of the commercial copies have non standard and non USGI parts on at least some of the rifle. There is plenty of parts available for USGI carbines. The problem with most of the commercial ones is that none of them were made in anywhere near the numbers of USGI ones and the parts that you will need, everyone else needs or needed too. Less rifle, less parts, you're in trouble. Thirdly, some of the commerical copies are known for the functioning problems.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 5:22:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rebel_rifle: Stay with USGI for several reasons.
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O.K. so who made the USGI models?
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 5:43:52 AM EDT
Winchester Rock Ola Saginaw S'G' Inland Irwin Pederson Underwood Standard Products National Postal Meter Quality Hardware IBM Saginaw Gear
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 7:47:45 AM EDT
IAI's M1 carbine is the best, brand new finish on all parts, Mil-spec, Groups twice as good as most GI. The IAI may need to have the chamber polished for perfect feeding though as the chambers are very tight match chambers. Think about it, spend $1000 on a refurbished M1 carbine or $450 on an IAI.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 8:15:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2003 8:19:48 AM EDT by blikbok]
I have shot an original Carbine and an IAI side-by-side, and been very impressed. I've seen the IAI new for ~$400. They are solid, well-finished and very functional, although the supplied stock is a little beefy compared to the trim wood of the original.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 8:21:18 AM EDT
IAI stands for ?? Any web site for them?
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 8:59:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Green0: IAI's M1 carbine is the best, brand new finish on all parts, Mil-spec, Groups twice as good as most GI. The IAI may need to have the chamber polished for perfect feeding though as the chambers are very tight match chambers. Think about it, spend $1000 on a refurbished M1 carbine or $450 on an IAI.
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$1000 for a "refurbished M1 carbine"? Man are you getting ripped off. I have yet to see any that were asking $1000 even for all correct hardly fired specimans. Most I see are still going for the $350 to $450 range and yes, some of them are needing of a good cleaning and possibly a re-park. But, you still have a USGI carbine with PLENTY of parts available. I did have my Winchester re-parked and it cost me about $75 or so. "Very tight match chambers"? Huh? I have yet to see a match chamber reamer in .30 Carbine. .30 Carbine and match, are not words that go together. Perhaps the chambers are rough and not tight? If you bought an IAI and are happy with it, that is great. I have also talked to some that were not so happy with those IAI's. To each his own.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 9:39:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2003 9:42:59 AM EDT by blikbok]
http://www.iaiamericanlegend.com/ http://www.iaiamericanlegend.com/pres/pres6.html (Reprint of Review from American Rifleman) "Although the carbine is made to “mil specs” the company has endeavored to improve on the quality rather than simply copy the G.I. version. For example, the domestically made button rifled barrel IAI installs has a chamber made to “match grade” tolerances. Essentially, the chamber is tighter by a few thousandths and more consistent than an average military chamber. As a result, while most G.I carbines produce five-shot groups of 3” to 5” at 100 yds IAI ’s guns typically group 2” to 2 1/2” under similar conditions, according to company literature. Our tests supported that claim." http://www.iaiamericanlegend.com/pres/pres7.html "We found accuracy of the new IAI M1 Carbine to be better than most G.I. Version. Note that the group size of the accompanying target dose not exceed 2” extreme spread." Seems they just tighten up the tolerances a bit. I'd rather that be an option, since I'd like to know it will always feed, fire, and extract. Though the DCM guys at the range sometimes run Carbine matches, I think "match" anything is a little overboard for the little M1. http://www.fulton-armory.com/MCarbRifles.htm I think the $1000 carbine might be referring to the Fulton Armory product.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 9:47:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By blikbok: http://www.iaiamericanlegend.com/ http://www.iaiamericanlegend.com/pres/pres6.html (Reprint of Review from American Rifleman) "Although the carbine is made to “mil specs” the company has endeavored to improve on the quality rather than simply copy the G.I. version. For example, the domestically made button rifled barrel IAI installs has a chamber made to “match grade” tolerances. Essentially, the chamber is tighter by a few thousandths and more consistent than an average military chamber. As a result, while most G.I carbines produce five-shot groups of 3” to 5” at 100 yds IAI ’s guns typically group 2” to 2 1/2” under similar conditions, according to company literature. Our tests supported that claim." http://www.iaiamericanlegend.com/pres/pres7.html "We found accuracy of the new IAI M1 Carbine to be better than most G.I. Version. Note that the group size of the accompanying target dose not exceed 2” extreme spread." Seems they just tighten up the tolerances a bit. I'd rather that be an option, since I'd like to know it will always feed, fire, and extract. Though the DCM guys at the range sometimes run Carbine matches, I think "match" anything is a little overboard for the little M1. http://www.fulton-armory.com/MCarbRifles.htm I think the $1000 carbine might be referring to the Fulton Armory product.
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Thanks for the info. To just make something a little "tighter" and call that match is a bit of a stretch IMHO. Then again, one of the most overused terms in this area is the word "match" at least they are no different. Ah yessss, the Fulton Armory "product". That explains the "$1000" M1 Carbine. What a rip.
Link Posted: 11/5/2003 3:29:50 PM EDT
American Rifleman hasn't met a rifle yet it didn't love..... The M1 Carbine was a substitute weapon for clerks and cooks because it was cheaper and easier to train than the M1911A1 pistol. There were many in infantry unit too, until they were "lost" and replaced by the M1 Rifle. Fun little plinker, though. Get any of the USGI models, they nearly all went thru arsenal "clean and repair" and will be a mix of parts. Even an "all matching" carbine (like my Inland) shouldn't be more than $600 and an arsenal rebuild should be closer to $400. Leave the $1000 models to collectors. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 11:16:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2003 12:18:25 PM EDT by blikbok]
Rebel_Rifle: I agree. I'd rather have a looser chamber for reliability. I also don't like when someone claims it's milspec save for some part they've *improved* on. Keep it standard, and offer "improvements" as options, please. I've had grand fun with Carbines over the years, starting with some of my fondest memories of childhood. Chuck: Yes, I'm amazed by how little data is in that review. I wish they'd shoot the ammo and report the group sizes, not tell me what to expect. Drag out an orginal Carbine and compare, with more numbers. Weigh and measure the rifle yourself, don't quote the manufacturer. I guess that's is why I haven't bought any of the major gun rags since 1996. :( I've now got a bug for a little M1, and I'm frustrated by the info I've found out there. Seems unless I track down USGI parts and assemble it myself, I'm asking for a bolt to recoil into my face. :(
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 1:53:00 PM EDT
If you see a Commercial Controls let me know ;-)
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 2:46:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2003 3:01:34 PM EDT by Green0]
The IAI is basically giving you a NEVER fired rifle that is in the same shape as others costing $1000 for $500 or less (they used to be $399 but there is a company that has been buying them all and raising prices artificially.) I had one and it shot 2-2.5inches at 100yds with the iron sights, and it jammed every 5th round, I know it was a simple problem that any gunsmith could fix but my brother needed money and sold it before we could have anyone look at it. (it was his gun) I have the AGI M1 Carbine video and it mentions the problem I was having and relates it to extractor tuning, simple couple of minutes with a file I think. The IAI's Barrel and chamber are match grade. (I've seen them compared them and believe this to be true, the IAI has a crown and sharp rifleing where the GI has a muzzle end and rough lines). [b]If you have looked at surplus M1's you will realize that 5 inches at 75yds is an average M1, the carbine was DESIGNED AND BUILT AS A PISTOL REPLACEMENT SO THIS IS NO PROBLEM BY GOV'T STDS. The rifeling is sometimes barely there, not visible for an inch from the muzzle back, with sometimes even sloppy 2-land rifleing. Barrel quality is Sten Gun esque (I fired a sten equipped with a dot sight and std barrel once and achieved 6inch groups at 100yds from a bench). [/b] As far as I am concerned I would rather spend 1 trip to the smith getting a 2.5MOA carbine to function 100% than live forever with a 5-7MOA gun. [b]I have talked to several Veterans of WWII who said the M1Carbine was the ticket for close in jungle fighting, small, light, manuverable, with high capacity, low recoil, and good stopping power. My grandpa was a BAR gunner in the Phillipines and said that the soldiers coveted the M1 Carbines. There are people out there who would have you believe that the M1 carbine was an underpowered disaster of a weapon (these are deer hunters mostly with no 30carbine experience other than looking at a round and laughing) The round fires with twice the power of a .357 Magnum, and with hollowpoints it will drop deer like a bad habit. (Most of these same people would ooh and aahh over a .357magnum revolver totally oblivious to the fact that the 30carbine they just mocked was TWICE AS POWERFUL.)[/b] "There were many in infantry unit too, until they were "lost" and replaced by the M1 Rifle." Do you even believe that? Sounds like those aforementioned Deer Hunter's urban legend. The Army doesn't let anyone "just lose their weapon", (where are you going to find a new one? Steal it from your buddy?) from what I know about Infantrymen, most of them aren't dying to pick up a weapon that is twice as heavy as what they put down. (I can tell you one thing, 2 months ago I gave up my 11lb issue A2/203 and picked up my new 9lb M4/M203 and I WAS HAPPY AS A CLAM, (notice I am not too concerned about the 14.5's terminal balistics [esspecially knowing that many veterans killed plenty of gooks in Vietnam with XM-177's with 11.5inch barrels.]) Lower weapon weight and morale will improve, I can't wait for the next EIB road march(with no more 11lb bitch cutting into my neck for 3 hours).
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 3:54:08 PM EDT
Greeno -- It's easy to "lose" a weapon in combat, not so easy in the Wisconsin Army National Guard where everything is clean, inventoried by serial number, and neatly stacked in the arms room with the bolt carriers removed. There were thousands of weapons policed off the beach in Normandy, for example. Even in a small engagement there will be dozens on the ground during and after an engagement. You need one? You like the M1 Rifle better than the M1 Carbine? You want a SAW rather than a M16A2? Pick one up, no one is going to ask you for a weapons card or to sign a hand receipt. No one will be conducting a serial number check on your rifle. The only important thing is you have one you trust. Rewatch the highly accurate Band of Brothers and note all the M1 Rifles, even carried by the officers. They knew better than to carry the M1 Carbine. You will no doubt find a few folks who loved the M1 Carbine as a combat weapon. They're the minority opinion in WW2 and the extreme opinion in Korea where the M1 Carbine was the subject of a Congressional investigation. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:01:36 PM EDT
"It's easy to "lose" a weapon in combat, not so easy in the Wisconsin Army National Guard where everything is clean, inventoried by serial number, and neatly stacked in the arms room with the bolt carriers removed. " Well obviously you know little of the WI ARNG or the Active Army of today. All the rifles everywhere are stacked neatly in arms rooms, everyone has a serialized weapon and an assigned weapons system, The bolt carriers are not removed, as the bolts are matched to the weapon and not serialized to prevent mix ups that would obviously occur if we stored them in a pile. Losing weapons and gear is not as easy as it used to be, now accountability is a big deal in the Army and everything worth anything is tied down to the rifle. I know guys who love the SAW that are issued M4's, me (I like the M4 and don't really appreciate grenade launchers, but I am issued one, almost no-one issued a SAW wants it, but that's the Army (I hate needles but that didn't stop them from sending me to a combat lifesaver course where I learned to give [and of course get] IV's). If everyone were controlling their own situation half the soldiers would roadmarch on treadmills while watching the packers game. [b]The M2 carbine was the source of Korean war problems, it was not very reliable in the cold with oil that probably froze, but in Vietnam the same M2's were very reliable. The M1 is an amazing weapon, it did way more than it was ever designed to do and yet everyone wants to smear it and act like it didn't. (Oh and the M2 was the first assault rifle- not the German Sturmghewer[SIC])[/b] I read a book (D-Day to Bastogne) and the author of that was a 82nd paraqtrooper who loved his Thompson and made 3 combat jumps with it. There is no perfect weapon, but given the M1 or M1 Carbine I would choose the m1 carbine.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:56:24 PM EDT
Like I said, there's always a minority opinion. The pistol caliber M1 Carbine bullet itself is enough to keep it from my serious rifle choices. When did NGB allow bolts to be stored in the weapons? The requirement used to be they had to be stored in a separate safe with the bolt carrier groups all taged or otherwise numbered to the rifles so the bolts wouldn't get mixed up. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 8:38:03 PM EDT
Sorry if I turned the post into a debate. There will always be people on both sides of the issue, I met a guy at a gunshow (WWII Vet) and he wondered why everyone was pissed about losing their mag capacity. He said "As far as I am concerned that M1Garand with it's 8 roundclip was class act. Give me an en-bloc clip and I'll conquer the world" My only reason for liking the M1Carbine is that I see it as an advanced concept for the time (a light, lively weapon with light ammo and high capacity magazine feed- balance is good and it points well and fast.) The Garand feels heavy and unbalanced to me. I think 30.06 is a great deer round but a little heavy recoiling (and possibly overkill) for a gun I have to fire 150+ times in a single confrontation. [b]Im not trying to say the M1 Carbine is a match for the M1 Garand past 250yds. It obviously is not. And it isn't a good candidate for a sniper rifle obviously. I do think a company like Troy Ind could have a field day with an M2 though (mod it, chop down the barrel, add a folding stock RAS and sound suppressor, fire 180grain subsonic loads, using an Aimpoint or EO-tech sight. Make a Really light quiet rifle for 100-150yd silent missions[/b]
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 10:12:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 1:18:29 PM EDT by blikbok]
The M1 Carbine is what it is: a semi-automatic, 15-shot carbine. It's no M1 Rifle, or BAR or M1 Thompson. But it isn't supposed to be. Each had their place. Maybe it's the original PDW :) It was one step on the path of small arms evolution. Either way, it's short, handy, and fun. It's got the paper ballistics of the .357 from a rifle, but sadly, doesn't have the selection of hollowpoints. I'm glad they are still legal to own, and *someone* is making new ones.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 5:04:17 PM EDT
Wonder how much my General Motors made M1 would fetch?
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 5:17:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By baxshep: Wonder how much my General Motors made M1 would fetch?
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It depends on condition, originality, whether it is an import or not, etc.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 6:13:25 PM EDT
It's in excellent condition but worn over the years. As for the import question.... the words General Motors should ring a bell It was made when the car factories geared up for wartime production.
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 7:29:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By baxshep: It's in excellent condition but worn over the years. As for the import question.... the words General Motors should ring a bell It was made when the car factories geared up for wartime production.
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You don't understand. Many M1 Carbines were sent out to our allies over the years since WWII. Many went to Korea, Israel, Chile, etc. When these carbines were shipped back to this country in the mid to late 80's and up to the early 90's they had an import company name stamped on the barrel or barrel band and some other parts of the rifle. Names to look for were Blue Sky, Excel, Arlington, Intrac and others. Re-imported rifles do not bring quite the price of a non imported rifle. Also, the features. The M1 Carbine was continually updated throughout its production. Flip sights, no bayonet lug, etc. were marks of early production carbines. They are worth more than late production or re-built carbines. Also, just about every part of the rifle is marked with a manufacturers code. Rifles with original as issued parts are worth more than "mixmasters." Excellent condition, but worn over the years is not a very detailed descripton, at least not enough for valuation purposes. How much finish is left? Condition of the bore? Condition of the wood? Early or late features? Your best bet is to get one of the collector books on the M1 Carbine and read about them. They are not that expensive and will really educate you about the carbine.
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