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Posted: 10/6/2003 8:18:03 PM EDT
Who likes what and why?
Anybody have much to say about Smith Ent. bolt groups?

BRING IT
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 8:25:26 PM EDT
I wish I had an LMT improved bolt and carrier. Other than that I like any milspec bolt and carrier from the ABCs Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt. Knight's will be coming out with one that should be excelent for the SOPMOD 2 upgrade to compete with LMT.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 9:08:50 PM EDT
whats so special about Lewis Machine & Tool bolt groups?
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 9:19:12 PM EDT
read... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=164878&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 10:13:36 PM EDT
I see almost bought a LW.499 but the ammo is like shooting gold...but i see now yes one of those bolts would be nice but they are WAY OVER PRICED give it a year or two the price will come down when they are common place
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 10:50:17 PM EDT
KAC will have a version coming out soon that is over $100 less expensive.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 2:42:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 2:43:24 AM EDT by AK_Mike]
Originally Posted By DevL: KAC will have a version coming out soon that is over $100 less expensive.
View Quote
Aw crap! I JUST bought an LMT unit! [banghead]
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 3:59:57 AM EDT
I wouldn't recommend any unit that uses the non "milspec" 8620 steel. Not sure what steel LMT used but they're a good outfit with an eye on military contracts and quite capable of taking them. They're probably using the correct steel.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 5:12:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 5:16:46 AM EDT by TAIMA]
Aw crap! I JUST bought an LMT unit! Why in the %#@&% would anybody spend 300$ on a bolt group? I dont care how damn well it runs they are ripping you off. We all know they arent that costly to make.I would feel conned if i paid more than $200 for the top of the line bolt group. $300 for a bolt thats like paying $300 for the next gen of 512 megs of ram just plain BS. What you have works and most likey cost $100-$150 just wait till its common place so as to not get conned out of your hard earned money.Money that a million people could use to live off of while your ar with a $300 bolt sits in the safe most likely 26 days out of the month(of course not true for all) Unless your rich and throw money away or you truely NEED it for WORK i just dont see why one would do it... WANT WANT WANT
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 12:20:40 PM EDT
Basic case of Capitalism. If YOU can make it the same or better and cheaper, then you have a market. Sounds as if KAC is doing the smart thing and bringing out competition. This will drive both into a battle to the death. It's the newest, and the greatest, so it is obviously going to be costly. ABC's work fine, but this is significantly better. I've yet to buy one yet since I'm waiting for the "market" forces to reduce the price. -Steve
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 12:21:56 PM EDT
AK_Mike has mulitiple full autos, short barrels and suppressors and that bolt carrier is made to reduce the cyclic rate, recoil impulse and ease extraction. In his case not only can he afford it he actually has a REAL use for it. I just have a 14.5" semi auto so for me I can certainly wait till my carrier nears the end of its life cycle and make a more educated decision as to what suits my purposes best.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 7:46:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 8:03:18 PM EDT
I don't think he was saying that at all, Wes. Most of us will never need a LMT bolt and carrier group for $300+. I can relate to his comparision to computer parts. Spend another $400 for that brand new G-Force, when the one you have runs just as fast. The rip off is charging so much more [b]OVER[/b] the stock unit, that works fine. I know that LMT has to re-coupe their R&D money, but people new to this sport/hobbie/addiction don't need to hear/read that LMT carrier/bolt will make your AR loads better. Cause it ain't so! I am sure he is not saying you rip anyone off. Your prices are higher, but I hear you give great customer service. So it balances out. Cheers, and I am [b]NOT[/b] attacking you. Spooge out!
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 8:51:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 8:54:54 PM EDT by TAIMA]
All im saying is it is over priced. If they want to pay a price that is only high do to low supply and they have to have the next fad and cant wait till its common place they are ripping themselves off. So tell me why is the cost so high? How do you justify selling them at $300 a pop?Besides supply and demand that is. What makes this bolt worth 3 times that of any old mil spec bolt?I mean why price gouge people?Hell just make more and drop the price and double sales.Are they making them in small numbers to keep the price high?Would you not want your product in ever AR in the land rather than only the upper income brackets hands? I mean for $300 i could get 2 bolt groups all the upgrades you could get to improve the bolts in any way and have cash left over for a few back up parts if need be.Just doesnt make sense if your not rich and dont give a damn but like i said if you need it for work then i can understand the need.Any edge that may save your life is a edge to have. You may not be ripping people off but it is safe to say i see some price gouging going on over this new bolt group.Its seems the maker may be over charging you not that you are over charging the public... I may put my money into a KAC bolt a few months or a year after they hit if the price on these stays so crazy high. Why do you think it is they are able to sell them 33% cheaper ?(I heard $200) I would think they will be made from the same basics and we all know KAC makes good stuff. So you tell me are you or the maker gouging people or just supplying a product TRUELY worth $300 If you look at the price of the bolt without the carrier the gouging is even more evident..$185 for a bolt? Well damn thats more like 4 times the price of a mil spec bolt.......Hell for that price alone i could get a entire bolt group and have a easy $50 left.I just dont see the material cost adding up to the market price being sky high as material cost cant be that much more.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:14:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 9:19:47 PM EDT by Horik]
R&D small co. small qualtity superior design superior finish (bolt and carrier) superior manuf. This unit is not designed for you it is designed to compete in SOPMOD blII for the military. In order to dramatically improve on the standard bolt and carrier design for the blockII solicitation try and imagine the time and cost. Kac can afford to ask less....For starters, they have a large military contract with a toehold in the door, ya dig! KAC and LMT are tops IMO! the KAC unit apparently requires a specific bbl. extension which will cost money too. The current KAC bolt mod. I saw has only the lobster tail extractor design with no other visible enhancements. BTW, It does make your AR run loads better.....if you are using your AR for the reason this was designed. Hands down! Some of you are talking about the LMT as if it is a market item built strictly for a sunday picnic at the range!
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:15:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 9:17:49 PM EDT by KevinB]
TAIMA, I guess you never took any economics right? The price is what the market will bear - I dont see you freaking out on the MWS rail manufacturers - and after all they are is extruded aluminum rail right... Don't like the $, fine dont buy it! You asked who liked what and... I have a LMT bolt - 2700 (some odd) rds with it and no problems, no cleaning (just have to see when it will calf...). I will get a KAC as soons as I can but right now LMT is the only commercial game in town. Edited to note Horik KAC has two versions a drop in for normal barrle extentions, and a KAC weapon specific that mates with KAC's rounded bolt lugs. -Kevin
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:23:10 PM EDT
Kevin, Thanks! That is what I was trying to infer in my post...the two KAC types....but it likely got lost in my rant[:D]
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:38:05 PM EDT
"BTW, It does make your AR run loads better.....if you are using your AR for the reason this was designed." Humm really? So I guess all those GI's in Iraq, and Afghanistan without LMT carriers/bolts are just asking for faliure. Huh? [;D] "Don't like the $, fine dont buy it!" Exactly! Kevin. That's what we all must ask ourselves in this world, with everything. Live and learn. [B)]
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 9:38:28 PM EDT
horik hit the nail on the head IMHO. the current mil-spec bolt and carrier design has been around for a long time. you don't come up with something new overnight. R&D costs are higher than the average consumer realizes. that's hundreds of man-hours. it isn't about material costs. that's usually the cheapest part of the equation. just like most other companies that introduce new items to the market, LMT is trying to recoup their R&D costs. just as an example, people wonder why prescription drugs are so costly before they become generic. my wife is in the pharmaceutical industry and she said that the average cost to a company to bring out a new prescription drug is $800 million. that's why you have those $50-a-pop cancer pills. cheers, MM
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 10:20:03 PM EDT
"BTW, It does make your AR run loads better.....if you are using your AR for the reason this was designed." "Humm really? So I guess all those GI's in Iraq, and Afghanistan without LMT carriers/bolts are just asking for faliure. Huh? " Again!!! this was designed for a specific reason. I never said the standard BCG's were crap. All those GI's are issued what they are issued. Not comparable! Would they want something better........what do you think? The sopmod blockII solicitation is asking for an enhanced bolt carrier group design........there is a reason for that. The LMT is different for a reason and not just to gather $300 from civilians. They make standards as well! Notice how I say design and reason and different alot....it's for a reason[:D] Also, great example MM and exactly what I mean!
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 10:46:18 PM EDT
Hey you are right! To answer the original question to this thread. My colt bolt and carrier. Never had one problem.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 11:54:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2003 11:56:51 PM EDT by stevenb]
Since when is "best" cheap? Did I miss something in the past 50,000 years? As Devl posted the thread, I highly recommend reading it. It lists many of the enhancements. If you only shoot 200 rounds, and put the rifle in a Pelican, and NEVER EVER EVER lay your rifle on say an unprotected hood of a truck, then the LMT bolt and carrier might not be for you aside from simple bragging rights. Now, if you're eating shit in talcum powder sized dust that gets everywhere, and cleaning your weapon daily still doesn't help, you sir have a problem. How about that extended airsoft camping trip we all plan on taking when Hitlery becomes [strike]dictator[/strike] President, and you don't get to clean the "baby" every time it touches earth or gets fired? The bolt and carrier was designed to eat shitty ammo with a bubba rate cleaning job and ask for more. Yes, your colt carrier works great in a pristine enviroment -- Mine does too. How many times has your rifle been submerged in water? Sure, you try not to let it happen, but shit happens. Repost of SMGlee's photo's for contrast: [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/guns/lmtbolt-1.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/guns/lmtbolt-2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/guns/lmtbolt-3.jpg[/img] I'd be very interested to re-align this topic to the origional question. I'd like to see a comparison visually between LMT (reigning champion) and both versions of KAC. Not to mention some of the other quality units. I apologize if I came across harsh, it's just my opinion on why I would be willing to spend that kind of coin. I'm thankful that MSTN has given us the oportunity to aquire these fine units. -Steve
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:04:38 AM EDT
"Yes, your colt carrier works great in a pristine enviroment -- Mine does too. How many times has your rifle been submerged in water? Sure, you try not to let it happen, but shit happens." [b]OMG![/b] What did we ever do before the LMT came into exsistance????? How did we ever survive?? Since, say, early [b]1960's[/b].
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 4:30:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:18:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 5:42:37 AM EDT by TAIMA]
NO, YOU PLAINLY STATED I AM "RIPPING PEOPLE OFF". READ YOUR OWN POST. DO NOT TRY TO DENY IT LMAO OMG Cry why dont you. I know what i posted im not denying anything and guess what youll be ok. Dont take every thing everybody says to be so damn literal or directed at you because you happen to sell the product.EVER HEAR OF RANTING Anyway do you make the bolt and charge the high price to start with?No your the damn middle man in the deal you have to take what they give you and if they start the price high well guess what you have to sell high. Get off your high horse i never even said i was talking about YOU. You just think i was. Your not even close with your analysis of my post.YOU SIR ARE NOT THE SUBJECT OF MY ANALYSIS The maker would be as they are the ones that make the market price what it is,they are the ones that decide just how high retails range will be by selling to you at a high or low price NOT YOU YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO QUESTION MY BUSINESS PRACTICES I have every right it is the right of the public to question all business practices of all companies or half of them wouldnt be even half as honest so dont tell me i have no right sir. PFT! Please! Who the hell do you think you are telling me i have no right HAHAHAHA To answer all your other questions im a regular joe who buys the same things from the same places every other person does on the open market and does alot more of my part buying from other regular joes so i wonder ....dont go acting like things cost so damn much just to make that over priced bolts cost get eaten up easier. Go patronize someone else! I rather not get my post locked thanks! Love that my thread is now hijacked by some yelling business man that was never even considered by me to be the true price gouger...let alone "rip off" He is only a damn middle man and he is yelling like he designed the damn thing.He was the first to get price gouged is all.He is far from the price gouger as far as i can tell.Unless....he gets them for $125-$185 then maybe he is LOL If anyone wants to answer the original Q at the top of the post i would be glad to hear your opinions of course.Back to "Anybody ever use Smith bolts? Any good? Whats your favorite group?"
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:16:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 8:19:28 AM EDT by Horik]
Fine then. To answer your original questions: LMT! You need to look around this site a little before getting whipped into a frenzy about market prices and who is ripping who off. Start with Wes. Educating yourself on the caps lock issue might be an even better place to start. Your original post was being answered just fine until you went off railing against a product you know nothing about. You highjacked your own thread! Take care!
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:21:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 8:28:19 AM EDT by TAIMA]
LOL @ horik "Educating yourself on the caps lock issue might be an even better place to start." Oh really whats it i seem not to know about caps? LMAO "Your original post was being answered just fine until you went off railing against a product you know nothing about. You highjacked your own thread!" By the way no my post wasnt being asnwered at all as devl posted about a want not a bolt group he has any experience with... Get it straight
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:05:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 9:23:48 AM EDT by DevL]
Originally Posted By TAIMA: devl posted about a want not a bolt group he has any experience with...
View Quote
I dont understand what this means... who cares if I just want it, or own one? Others have told me in detail their experiences with it. Thats what this forum is all about. As for the KAC product that is all rumor till its released. I know the product will come eventually but I also know it will be a long time coming. I could not get indepentdant verification of its release or cost either. As for me discussing a product which I have no experience with... I can see its made with higher quality machining than any other bolt group out there. I know its electroless nickle plated and that is is slicker and more corrosion resistant than factory but not as abrassion resistant as hard chrome. I see how they solved the major problems associated with the M4 and SBR rifles. Extra gas port to bleed pressure, cut the corners off the bolt lugs which failed from stress and the double extractor system. I wish I had one just to have one. Its the best thing out there. Just becasue I dont own a Mercedes and own a Corvette instead does not mean I dont understand and appreciate the quality and engineering behind a Benz. Merceds sells USED cars for OVER MSRP becasue the demand is so high and there is a limited production. The waiting list can be years long. If you dont like it, dont buy one. Mercedes is not for everyone. Dont bitch just because you cant afford or dont want to pay a certain price. The Chevy dealership is right down the road... As far as railing against MSTN, I am fairly poor compared to some on these boards and I spend my money on a lot of other things. I dont have the cash to always buy from MSTN becasue they do have higher prices sometimes BUT they always have the new stuff first, they have excellent customer service and they ship so fast its ridiculous. When I bought a FF RAS from them I paid with a persoanl check and they sent my stuff off before the check even cleared. Noone else would do that. MSTN provides as much or more positive input to this site than any retailer out there. They are a specialty shop and have things IN STOCK and dont advertise what they dont have. If you dont like the prices because you cant afford it GO ELSEWHERE. But dont question someones integrity before you even know what they are all about.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 9:14:03 AM EDT by Horik]
For TAIMA: You are wrong I am right! Devl talked about wanting one and a link was posted. You then went straight into railing about price. Folks were answering your question! Re-read it! You obviously did not bother checking out the caps lock issue! "Get it straight!" I just straightened it! I am done arguing! Enjoy the boards!
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 10:06:07 AM EDT
"I dont understand what this means... who cares if I just want it, or own one?" Big diff between first hand experience and second hand knowledge my friend
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 10:09:06 AM EDT
Money that a million people could use to live off of while your ar with a $300 bolt sits in the safe most likely 26 days out of the month(of course not true for all) Unless your rich and throw money away or you truely NEED it for WORK i just dont see why one would do it... WANT WANT WANT
View Quote
This statement is asinine. If you feel this strongly about it I expect you to sell all your AR’s and split the money evenly between the million people you spoke of and leave those that "WANT" them alone.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:08:39 PM EDT
$300+ bolt assembly made in the USA = excellent quality. WWI $300 is not at all that bad. If anyone hear says they can mfg. the same and achieve a high level of quality for a cheaper price it will not be that much cheaper unless a huge demand is there. Don't forget when Mfg's get demand and the production goes up quality usually suffers. If someone does not want to spend the money, wait a few years and you will see a vast improvement in the AR style bolt system. LMT is just one of the first to make something better for public sale. more .02 Samuel
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:36:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TAIMA: "I dont understand what this means... who cares if I just want it, or own one?" Big diff between first hand experience and second hand knowledge my friend
View Quote
I have almost EVERY Gawd awfull expensive accessory you can buy on my rifle with the exception of the LMT bolt/carrier. I learned about everything I currently own from this board before I bought it. I know probably about 5% more now that I own these parts than before I bought them and did not own them. Id say the differnce in owning first hand and just listening to others is a very small difference.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 5:51:24 PM EDT
What is your favorite bolt assembly(bolt & carrier) maker? I like my Bushmster B/BC very much. I do not like my Colt B/BC. It's a bit finnicky, I think because it is so light. I need another one, and I think I'm going to try the RRA. It is "beefed up" a little bit. I personally have no real need for an LMT, but more power to you if you need one or even just want one.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 6:31:10 PM EDT
"I know probably about 5% more now that I own these parts than before I bought them and did not own them. Id say the differnce in owning first hand and just listening to others is a very small difference." Me and you differ in opinion by a mile an this one.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:32:54 PM EDT
I've seen several people in this and other threads refering to new RRA bolt carriers as "beefed up" or "enhanced". Can someone explain exactly (what or) where they needed to be beefed up? Were they chopped up like a Colt before the change? I'm asking because I now have a Colt and I would like to replace it with a slightly heavier one. I have no need for a full blown ($$) custom unit, I just want the best mil-spec unit I can get.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:56:38 PM EDT
[b]LMT[/b]
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:09:31 PM EDT
RRA carriers have the ramp over the rear of the firing pin intact. They are also full circle rear AR15 carriers. Some Colts are totally milled off and have a C profile.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 12:04:08 AM EDT
GLOCKshooter
I do not like my Colt B/BC. It's a bit finicky, I think because it is so light.
View Quote
Are you thinking of the Sporter carrier? I believe Colt makes three different carriers The Sporter with an exposed firing pin and bottom rear of the carrier machined off M16 And a Law Enforcement carrier which is an M16 carrier with a covered firing pin like the M16 and the bottom rear of the carrier machined off like a Sporter. Don’t know how prevalent these Colt LE carriers are. I would like to know if anybody has any experience/opinions with the [b]Smith Enterprise[/b] parts? Does the Smith Enterprise carrier have a covered firing pin like the M16? Best regards, J
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:57:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 8:07:23 AM EDT by SMGLee]
As far as which carrier and bolt I like to use in my gun, my answer is which ever will work. a bolt is a bolt, and not too many board member here will ever reach the point their bolt will fail as long as the unit comes from a reputable manufacture. Taima, you are right, that freaking Wes is a dip..... he freaking ripped me off, i bought two LMT carriers and a extra LMT bolt. damn you wes and your freaking jedi mind trick. [;)] As far as the LMT unit, I am a LMT carrier owner, first of all, if anyone insist MSTN is ripping the consumers off with the price then you are definitely talking out of your rear end. yes the unit is 300 dollars but as soon you put it next to a regular unit you can see the night and day difference in the quality. the minor detail that went into improving the unit is something you can't gather from the photo. the overall machining of the carrier and bolt is first rate. even our resident machinist at my company is very impressed with LMT unit and he has been doing this for thirty years. of course the price also associate with being a elite group of AR users whom value highly the ability and reliability delivered by the LMT carrier. LMT only made so many carrier group for military testing and what Wes has is currently available to the civilians. like Ferrari, it is a low volume item which will command the price.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 1:20:11 PM EDT
Thanks DevL for the info on the RRA carrier.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 1:43:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 1:57:44 PM EDT
LMT or LWRC (essentially the same thing) best bolts and carriers on the market and the heart of the weapon. One of the reasons for the extra cost is the machining time - it takes over 10 times longer to make these parts so that's an increasing in manufacturing cost that's passed on to the end user. Just my 02!
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 2:11:00 PM EDT
Last, despite over-zealous warnings or outright falsehoods, it is NOT illegal to use an M16 carrier in your AR. I thought i read that you cant have any M16 parts in your rifle at all........ As the ATF then considers it a machine gun or did i just interpret the language wrong on the site ...im pretty sure i read it on a ATF site a few years back...
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:04:27 PM EDT
Thanks for that info. Troy !! [jump]
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:31:44 PM EDT
They SUGGEST you dont run any M16 parts so you dont accidentally end up with enough parts to constitue constructive intent or an unregistered machine gun. Bushmaster's website says its illegal and they admit its wrong but they wont change it. It is a source of revenue if you see you have an M16 part in your rifle and get scared as rifles have been made with M16 parts here and there. I talked with the head gunsmith at Bushmaster about the ramp and he said the unmilled ramp existed but was exceedingly rare. He also said they would not do a special full ramp carrier for me. That is why I selected an M16 carrier... I wanted all Bushmaster parts n my Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 6:37:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 6:56:29 AM EDT by 45shutr]
Thank you Troy for the information and pics, all very helpful. One more (dumb) question. I was once told that milling the ramp away around the firing pin and adding the larger collar to the pin itself was (also) done to help prevent slam fires by allowing the firing pin to catch and be held back temporarily as the bolt moves forward (as in the M1 rifle). Can anyone tell me if this is true? If so, then if I was to install an unmodified carrier would I be exposing myself or others to the risk of an unintended discharge?
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 7:09:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: The second change is to machine the firing pin ramp back, exposing the spool of the firing pin. This, in conjunction with notching the top face of the hammer, was done to prevent people from removing their disconnector and getting (uncontrolled) full-auto. The notched hammer will catch on the exposed spool of the firing pin and cause a stoppage, and thereby preventing a run-away AR.
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Link Posted: 10/10/2003 12:33:16 PM EDT
I recently purchased a Smith Enterprises hard chrome carrier. The rear is a full circle and the ramp is only milled slightly. It is heavier than the Colt carrier that I relaced it with. It cycles smoother than the Colt and looks trick. Now the b/c group locks back every time on last round fired, something that the Colt didn't always do. I love it.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 2:35:13 PM EDT
I prefer Young Mfg. or Les Baer. Both are actually made by Young.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 7:37:49 PM EDT
I guess I did ask a dumb question. I need to learn to READ before I write.[>:/]
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